AAR/EOG - Newbie Grind

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DougJoe
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AAR/EOG - Newbie Grind

#1 Post by DougJoe » Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:46 am

This was my first game on this site - I like a lot of the features compared to the older version of phpDiplomacy that runs on Facebook. I probably shouldn't have joined a 24-hour turn length game, but oh well. I've played a score of games online through FB (all classic, a mix of normal & gunboat), once live, and once via email. (Side note:the live game and the email game were for a college paper on communication.)

I honestly wasn't thrilled with drawing Turkey, as that was who I played in my last game. I've only played the yellow pieces twice before (the first was a total train wreck in the live game mentioned above) but hey, learning experience, right?

Initial messages to everyone were pretty friendly... light messages to the western powers... I don't think I initially promised anything to anyone, other than trying agreeing to an R/T in a way that wasn't *really* agreeing to an R/T, just in case I wanted an out. I think Italy also wanted to attack Austria, but I can't remember for certain. Russia and I did agree to bounce in BLA.

Post Spring 1901 - Turkey's standard boring moves. I didn't want to attack R right from the outset. Russia moved on Austria who left Galicia open in order to try for Greece. Italy made kind-of Lepanto moves, I was a little worried about that. The big surprise was England's move to the channel and France's opening moves which were unusual. At this point, Russia suggested a split of Rum/Bud/Vie & Gre/Ser/Tri/Bul. I said that sounded good, but I played passively since Gre or Rum weren't really options. Curious to see what happens with Gal...

Post Autumn 1901 - Nothing truly unexpected happens here - Russia guesses "correctly" and gets into Vie, but gets bounced out of Bud - and guess where Austria's going to build? Vie is indefensible in the spring. France saves Brest, but only gets one, as do England, Italy, and I. Germany and Russia both get 3 and Russia can't build in Sev, so that's good. Curious to see what Italy builds. I'm building a fleet in Smy, bound for the Aegean for leverage on Greece and against a Lepanto if needed.

Post Winter 1901 - OK, well, Germany builds some east-side armies and those ought to be a little frightening to Russia... he builds two armies in the middle and a fleet on NC St.P, which might have possibilities with Norway being vulnerable. Italy built fleet Rome, which means that he can't be in TYS and ION after the Spring 02 moves... going towards France, perhaps? I ask Russia to let me into BLA to use the fleet to help defend Bulgaria from Austria and he isn't cool with that... so we plan to bounce again. I don't remember if I said anything useful to Austra or Italy at this point.

Post Spring 1902 - Smy to AEG with no issue. Italy just moves to TYS, so that's very non-threatening. I don't remember if this is where I sussed out the E/G alliance or if I'd heard before this. Russia could have moved Swe->Nwy supported by St.P., but I'm not sure it would have mattered as there would have been three E/G units on Norway after the fact anyway. Germany makes some aggressive moves towards Russia and I'm not sure how I feel about that. I want Russia to not do to great in the north if I do want to attack him some day. France is doing OK but he's not getting Por which is tough, he needs another build. Russia wants to focus on the north (I think he should have abandoned St.P and clogged the middle of the board) and says I can move to BLA... I think Austria is going to be occupied and so I take the risk of angering him and try for Greece.

Post Autumn 1902 - Greece captured. In BLA. Russia's moves are, in my humble opinion, not good - maybe I should have made some suggestions here. Germany's move to Livonia is well played and he's guaranteed Moscow next turn. G also gets into Gascony, which is a nice place for him to be. G is at 7 and E is only at 4 - I think it was at this point I started trying to get E to attack G... it didn't work. At this point, E, G, and A all try to persuade me to attack Russia. I tell each of them (well, maybe not A, I don't remember) that something is coming but I do not directly state that I'm attacking Russia... build is another Army Con for back-fill. I think Russia is toast and I want to get Rum/Sev before A or G do. I think G made a statement to me about not caring about what happened to Austria here, that was interesting.

Post Winter 1902 - Well, army build for me and army build for Germany. Russia removes Gal and Sev (I would have gotten rid of Sev and Bot?) and I'm planning on taking Rum... Russia drops out of the game. New Russia shows up and makes a statement about continuing our alliance, which I don't acknowledge and ask him about his moves. I ask France if a strike on Munich is in the works but I'm doubtful.

Post Spring 1903 - Nothing going on with Munich. I take Rum, send Russia an apology and that's the last either of us communicate with each other. G takes Mos as expected, which is actually probably a bad thing for me. Don't remember what I said to A or I at this point, save that I is headed to participate in the dismembering of France, which means he's not bothering me but he's going to get some more units soon. I think about Serbia, then decide to just defend everything and try to move to Sev with the fleet to cut any support of the expected Sev S Gal -> Rum, but I wouldn't be surprised at Sev->Arm, either.

Post Autumn 1903 - ...and that's what happens and my fleet waltzes into Sev and I get two builds. I don't particularly like the fleet there, but oh well. E gets 1, G gets 1, I gets one but he lost a unit so he builds 2. G still the board leader at 8. Austria's moves are surprising as he does not support into Serbia... I could have taken it, but I'm not sure I should have. Austria's move to ION is a pain, maybe I should have moved AEG->ION. Builds will be F Smy and A Ank, mostly to get rid of that last pesky Russian unit. Ank will plan on rotating up to Sev at some point.

Post Winter 1903 - Well, nothing shocking there. OK, now what? Hit Arm with Ank, Smy has to hold to block a retreat. That's annoying. Russia will lose Warsaw by the end of 1904 but I have to prevent anything happening before then. I decide to not try for anything Austrian and come up with a set of moves that is actively defensive (as opposed to just support holds). Just deal with Russia.

Post Spring 1904 - England still hasn't made any progress in France - France is single-mindedly defending against him... France should be making the same overtures to E that I was earlier... with G at 8 and soon to be 9 to England's 5, maybe F could have patched things up and convinced E to turn. Maybe not. Immediately after the turn I tell A that my moves were defensive... I think his were too (tap my two outer units but support Greece?) but I don't think the Austrian at that time said anything about it. This is where I warned Austria about Germany - G made some great moves and now A is in trouble. I wanted A to turn around - I would have then had to make a decision about defending A or trying to move in behind him... I wasn't sure. I struggle with deciding what to do here but I again, play probably too passive and just defend.

Post Autumn 1904 - Austria does nothing but a useless attempt at Greece. I could have taken Serbia, again. Probably should have. I send Austria a message that he should have listened to me and get no response... no builds for me this year. G gets only 1 due to an arranged swap w/ England. Italy rightly covers Ven and gets a build. France is holding on.

Post Winter 1904 - More armies for E, G, and I. Russia is gone. I think this is where the 4th Austria joins up and is committed to defending against A. I agree, and it sounds like Italy is on board. I think G is going to move to Ukraine this turn, which I don't like. I should have bounced him, instead, at Austria's request I used Rum to tap Gal, which didn't matter.

Post Spring 1905 - Yes, A gets Trieste back and since Italy gets into Tyo and Ven, a Tri is destroyed. Germany does get into Ukr, which coupled with his unit in Gal is really annoying. Austria makes big suggestions here about A/I/T fighting G and then A/T going after Italy. Austria wants me to move to ION, which I explain Italy and I had DMZ'ed in Autumn of 1902 (couldn't remember when the DMZ was earlier in this post). I think I ask Italy to move to ION and he doesn't like it... I decide to do it anyway. Mostly support holds otherwise, although for some reason (I really don't remember why) I decide not to support Trieste from Alb... and then the turn deadline comes and goes without a chance to change my mind. Germany says he doesn't want to attack me.

Post Autumn 1905 - Italy doesn't like the fact that I've moved to ION and wants to know what's going on. England has to retreat to Naf and offers to support me into Tunis. Italy has attacked Austria. I should have seen it coming, but since I didn't support Tri, it falls. Germany gets into Venice and Austria is down to 2. 1 for G and 1 for I this year.

Post Winter 1905 - A fleet in Naples for Italy and another army for G. I claims he wanted to build A Ven but E's fleet in Naf forces his hand. At this point, both Italy and Germany offer to help me against Austria. Germany offers to give me Austria in exchange for my commitment to a E/G/T draw - Italy offers to help me against Austria as well. Austria, after the stab by Italy, tells me my units are to do with as I please. I make the very difficult decision to attack him as even though he could get Trieste back, I think his time is done... so I give Austria a useless suggestion and then accept Italy's support into Serbia, even though I can take it by myself based on Austria's expected moves. I have a feeling Italy's going to push into ION, but as long as I get a build this year it should be OK.

Post Spring 1906 - I get Serbia. Austria is disappointed but takes it much better than I would have expected. I apologize - it really was a hard decision. Both Germany and Italy offer to support me into Bud - it's nice to be loved! England has still not taken a French SC. I believe I accepted help from both Italy and Germany, again committing to the 3-way draw. Italy wants to move to ADR - I don't want him to because it can defend Tri and I'd like it at some point. So this turn it's Rum->Bud, backfill Rum, and hopefully bounce in ADR.

Post Autumn 1906 - There's Budapest and Austria is eliminated two builds for me. England finally gets Bre. Recap - E-7,F-2,G-9,I-7,T-9. I've caught up but I feel horribly vulnerable along the G/T border. I'm going to build A Con, F Smy, although it was originally going to be 2 fleets. This is where I send me a very long message about the state of things and the E/G/T, suggesting I/T vs. G would be more interesting. I have a hard time coming up with an answer because I'm honestly not sure what to do. I think at this point I start thinking about taking a shot at Galicia with Tri->Ven, Sev->Ukr, Rum->Gal S Bud. Then I get a message from I that he's sort of giving up and going to defend Spa/Mar/Tun and moving out of ION. I was so surprised that I wrote back stating that I was worried that meant he and G had come to terms...

Post Winter 1906 - Builds come down. England builds another army, and my army/fleet. Italy says Tri is mine if I want it, so I go ahead and plan on it. I decided, still, to not try for Gal and just take Tri and hope G doesn't try for Rum so I can get Con up to Bul to defend it.

Post Spring 1907 - That all went nicely, Germany did not get Venice and got blocked from moving to Pie. I'm *still* considering taking a shot at Gal but just can't decide if I can profit from it at all, especially since I hear G is getting Paris... Italy says he's moving out of Rome and I can move in. Okay then! I think here G and I agreed I would get Nap/Tri and he would get Ven/Rom.

Post Autumn 1907 - Hitting Gal would have worked (Tri->Vie, Rum->Gal S Bud, Sev->Ukr, Bul->Rum) but again, what after that... Welcome to Naples. France loses Paris to Germany, so G gets a build, but I get two. So now I'm the leader with 11. Builds will probably be fleet and army again.

Post Winter 1907 - Italy loses Venice when he says he meant to lose TYS - if he'd have kept Ven I might have done things differently. In the end, I still avoid attacking G but plan on taking Rome preventing him from taking Ven to give myself time to get units into Alb and Bul to make myself almost impregnable against German attack in Tri/Bud/Rum. I have my apology all ready to go...

...when the German mysteriously disappears and the turn resets. I check the game a few hours later and notice a new Germany has taken over, he wants to continue the 3-way. I see that E/F/G/I have all voted draw. I make one last push at England trying to get him to attack Germany but he doesn't bite, so I agree to the draw as well.

In general, I never really got attacked by anyone - maybe a couple of times by one of the Austrias but even then I wasn't sure if that's what it was... did I really diplome that well? Never feels like it.

Good game everyone!

England - I still think you were too tied to Germany - there were a couple of turns where I would have been severely tempted to attack him if I were you. With the way France was keeping you out it might have been wise to try to renegotiate there. Maybe not, I don't know... were you and Germany initially planning a 17/17 of any sort? I was hoping one of you two would eventually have to turn on the other.

Italy - You really seemed reluctant to attack me most of the game... did you ever really consider it? I did quite enjoy our back and forth. I was on the fence at the end about allying with you against G, but even if I got Mos/War, I still end up more than likely having to move on you in the end.

Germany (original) - As Italy mentioned in the global at one point, I'm very surprised you didn't attack me and I was waiting, turn after turn, for you to hit Rum. I could have turtled against you alone to keep from being eliminated (and I was prepared to at one point) so maybe you felt the gains wouldn't be worth the fuss. Like I said to England, I was really hoping you or he would turn on the other at some point, but I didn't think it was likely.

France (2nd) - About the best you could do with what you had. You mentioned motivations in the global chat - I don't know what messages went back and forth between you and E but you seemed bent on revenge and thus I think missed an opportunity to work something out with E - but then again, maybe E was so committed to G that nothing you could have said would have worked. That being said, I think you did well for facing a tri-pronged attack.

Austria (4th) - Well, that stab in Serbia may rank as the most difficult one I've ever done. Otherwise, again kudos for taking over a difficult position.

Russia (2nd) - You were doomed when you took over the position. If there had been some way to salvage the position I would have considered working with you, but I just didn't see it happening.

Maybe I'll see some of you in another game soon - enjoyed playing with all!

Whew!
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Deathslayer7
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Re: AAR/EOG - Newbie Grind

#2 Post by Deathslayer7 » Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:11 am

My thoughts as England.

During the first turn, I reached out to germany and France and russia. Agreed to a dmz in the English channel. I had no plans to move to the English channel but that's when I noticed France failed to put in moves. This was about 5 minutes from when orders were due. So I changed it and got off. By the time I got back on, France had been replaced and put in orders, but it was too late. I didn't realize it didn't do a no move order but kicked them out. Russia agreed to split the north but no exacts were ever formed which made me suspicious of him.

At that point the next turn I talked with Germany and trusted h enough to work with him. New France was mad at me for betraying the dmz and I'm pretty sure slandered me to Russia and Germany. Didn't care, at that point I was comitted.

During the next few turns I was okay with Germany taking most of the SCs. He needed them to hold you all off. I was waiting for him to build that 3rd fleet at which point I most certainly would have backstabbed him but he never did. At this time Russia built a 2md fleet I'm the north and I knew he was going for Scandinavia. Germany seemed bent on taking Russia out so I went with it.

We had Russia on the ropes and he should have abandoned the north but didn't. I got mad at that and left the 2nd Russia Iin a bad bind. I felt bad for 2nd Russia as he reached out to me to negotiate a peace treaty but I pretty much told him I was comitted to this and he wasn't going to change my mind. This also screwed me over from getting to France faster. Germany held up his ends of the bargain I'm terms of the north.

At this point I turned towards France as the Russian threat was eliminated. Had France on the ropes but Germany was afraid of a backstab from my fleet in the north sea that he moved all units back. Backstab wasn't worth it in my opinion as I had more to lose than gain. Set me back one full year as I needed his help to take France. That combined with Russia up north is why France survived so long. Then Italy went and helped France defend against me which annoyed me. Slowed me down the third time.

Italy tried to say I would die and asked for peace but I told him he shouldn't have helped France and that it was going to come back to bite him in the butt since I was pretty sure turkey would try to go for him. At that point when I saw Italy heading west and Germany not attacking for some strange reason, I knew it was either turkey takes all or a draw which is why I agreed to a draw earlier rather than later.
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Muscovy_Duck
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Re: AAR/EOG - Newbie Grind

#3 Post by Muscovy_Duck » Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:20 pm

Hi, France (2nd) here.

Yes, good game. I enjoyed the uphill struggle throughout.

First, a clarification to England's post above. I took over AFTER the Sp01 moves had been made, so it seems the original France player did submit orders.

I joined the site only a month ago and was having difficulty getting a place in a game. Hence I took on this position.

It was a strange position with the French fleet in Gascony, and the English fleet contrary to archived communications having entered Channel.

I communicated with everyone, more so obviously with the western powers. E was gung-ho and clearly thought he'd pulled a fast one on turn one which would reap rich rewards. I was determined it wouldn't!

G (original) was totally forthright and stated he and E intended to destroy me.

Italy gave me no assurances. Naturally i suggested we combine but by 02 Italy looked liks he was coming my way and he admitted as much which was decent of him.

Austria and Russia said they'd love to help but expected to be hard pressed themselves.

Turkey said keep communications open and if I survived we may be able to dismember Italy.

At various times I reached out to E/I/G, notably once to all 3. They were honest players and told me they were out to dismember France. The only deceptions, if that's what they can be called, were E>Channel on turn 1, and G having moved NE out of France, claiming he'd leave me in peace, seemingly he was suspicious of E! That was the turning point; once trust was restored I was doomed by E/I/G and the drama ended as it did.

Turkey mention G's move to Gascony. I'd seen it and was within a whisker of blocking it but I couldn't cope with G and I in the south and chose not to protect Gascony.

Eventually, a brilliant move by E which took ages to set up gave him what he'd been after all along. Well done.

So, an interesting game played skilfully and with due decorum by all. Thanks.
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Vugg11
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Re: AAR/EOG - Newbie Grind

#4 Post by Vugg11 » Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:11 pm

Original Germany here.

Very sad I could not finish the game. This was very fun and would love to do a rematch!

My thoughts the entire game was to keep my promises and I think I only broke 1 to France. I was originally planning a 17/17 split with E but I did think that trying to take Turkey was going to be a pain. E criticized my move letting Turkey take Bud but it was going to be a stalemate and I have always thought making a friend was better than making an enemy. So I thought a 3-way draw would be the best outcome for all.

Overall I think I played a clean game and that is enough of a win in my book.
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Claesar
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Re: AAR/EOG - Newbie Grind

#5 Post by Claesar » Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:52 pm

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dmittlem
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Re: AAR/EOG - Newbie Grind

#6 Post by dmittlem » Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:15 pm

Last Austria (the 4th??) here.

I came into the game in a wildly vulnerable position, just looking to have some fun hanging on as long as possible. I looked at the board and, among other things, saw a successful E/G.

I play mostly gunboat, a variation which operates under totally different assumptions. Being unable to communicate over text with anyone means that you have to convey your intentions with your moveset. It also means that you need be sure that any positional vulnerability that you present is relatively defensible, because you can't verbally agree to DMZs or non-aggression pacts. All that is to say I'm not used to seeing an alliance operate as cleanly as the E/G did in this game. Both powers were totally exposed, and either could have decided at any moment to turn against the other with relative success (of course, risking the progress of their opponents in the South).

When I came into the game and immediately pointed out that England had an opportunity to stab, I was acting on gunboat instincts. I thought for sure that at some point one of E/G would turn, and that a public prodding would speed that along, hopefully pulling Germany out of the South and giving me room to breathe.

I also tried to instigate a battle between Italy and Turkey over the Med, to no real success. Again, coming from GB, I hadn't considered that ION had early in the game been marked a DMZ by I/T.

In any case, myself, Italy and Turkey were able to have a successful defensive season against Germany in S05. We stopped G's progress at least.

Then, really just for fun, I went about projecting grand visions of the game to come, hoping to win over either Italy or Turkey. I presented Turkey the idea of both a successful A/T and an A/T/I, and the same to Italy. Received back some decent responses from Turkey, but nothing more than a few words from Italy. At that point, I knew I had failed to win over the Italian, and that I was doomed as a result.

I had a call to make in A05. Do I suggest to Italy that I support him into Vienna, allowing myself to support my hold in Trieste, or do I ask for support into Vienna, letting Italy know that Trieste was his to take? I did the latter, knowing it was likely a tactical error, because I figured that I had come into this game late enough where it wasn't my own, and that further progress would be at the hands of those who had been in the game from the start. I opted to allow Italy to decide, and unsurprisingly he chose to bite. Fair enough.

Good game everyone. Seems like a good crowd
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DougJoe
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Re: AAR/EOG - Newbie Grind

#7 Post by DougJoe » Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:16 pm

Deathslayer7 wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:11 am
At that point when I saw Italy heading west and Germany not attacking for some strange reason, I knew it was either turkey takes all or a draw which is why I agreed to a draw earlier rather than later.
You're probably right about this, although I don't think I would have gotten a solo - I believe I could have gotten into Galicia but I'm not sure I would have gotten anywhere after that, especially with you available for support of Moscow from St.P.
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AugustusCaesar4141
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Re: AAR/EOG - Newbie Grind

#8 Post by AugustusCaesar4141 » Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:39 pm

Hello Everybody, this is the 2nd Russia!

You all probably realized something along these lines, but this was only the second game of Diplomacy I've ever played, so I don't have much to say on the game. I enjoyed it immensely, and I appreciate this post-game recap to help me learn how to play this game.
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WSChurch
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Re: AAR/EOG - Newbie Grind

#9 Post by WSChurch » Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:25 pm

Hello! This is Italy,

Wow! I am blown away by the responses especially Turkey's. That was an amazing recap.

I'm not sure my strategy was as nearly well thought out as was everyone else's. As far as my early strategy, initially, was trying to figure out whether to go east or west depending on how the A or T alliance set up. I was hoping to solidify one border and free up units to go the other way and I preferred an A alliance if I got the sense that we could quickly form a rock-solid alliance which of course is not easy in this sort of format when you don't know the players. An alliance with A which requires you to keep your border fortified is not really all that helpful. I didn't really get the sense from A that they were interested in going all-in against everyone else and the communications with Turkey lead me to believe that Turkey was a very good player and I wasn't sure I wanted to go up against them being unsure of Austria's commitment.

With England making the bold move on France and Germany seeming to be cooperating with E, I decided to go west and that was my emphasis for the rest of the game for the most part. At that point in the game, A, T, and Russia appeared to be in a "Mexican standoff" which I wanted to continue to foster as it seemed to secure my eastern border as well as I could with Austria. The dropping out of various players did change what I did a bit as there were times I thought that redirecting things east might allow quick sc grab, but the people stepping in for the dropped players didn't seem to miss a beat. France seemed against the ropes, so I expanded west hoping Turkey would not build too many fleets in the meantime, because that would make a later alliance unlikely. I was trying to be unthreatening as possible to Turkey and didn't want to have to divert units eastward.

After getting Spain and securing the Mediterranean, I was hoping to secure that front and then move back east. I was hoping England would offer me a secure western front so I could move units out of there. I initially wanted E to dispose of France quickly and then be tempted to move on Germany. It seemed to me to be the most logical way for E to solo, as opposed to trying to go into the Mediterranean Sea where I had a pretty big presence. G had few fleets, the northern sc's were exposed, and G was going south. I didn't realistically see how I could pop out of the Med with nothing settled in the east, so I thought I was done expanding there.

I could tell England was a much better player than I from our communications, but England's communications became very one-sided and aggressive on the nature of "let's work together, I'll take Por and Spa and whatever else I want and then I'll let you live, maybe". England made no pretense about allowing me to hold anything or helping me expand in any way. Diplomacy is a game of social cooperation, so when you make an alliance you really should make your plans taking into account how the other "partner" will have to defend a tempting stab and where are they going to be able to expand if they are not attacking you. I guess England thought they had the upper hand, but honestly, how did they expect me to play the Italian position in that scenario?

With England not providing me with any security and not hinting that if they finished France they would be tempted to turn on G, I decided to help France who was obviously a really, good player try and tie up England to hopefully create a stable stalemate in the west, so I could go east for the builds. France did a great job for a while against long odds, but E retreating to North Africa and the small gains that they did make as well as the eastern part of the map sorting itself out made me think it wasn't looking like France couldn't stabilize the front. So I decided, I should try once again to help England defeat France to tempt them to stab G. It didn't work. Even though G blocked E from expanding further into Russia by taking Moscow and G was very exposed, England wouldn't seem to bite. I was baffled by that.

In the west, Austria had a great plan moving forward and I was for it for the first couple of turns, but then I thought they got a little greedy. I understand wanting to get Austrian territory back, but the planned sharing of territory by Austria cut off my northern movement and so it seemed to me Austria was just preparing me for a stab and assault possibly with Turkey's help so, I did stab Austria to get Vienna.

Several moves prior to this Germany had wanted to move into Vienna and was going south. I was initially on board, but I didn't understand why G wasn't helping call England off in the west. If I was going to go help G, who was leading at the time, go into the area which was a natural expansion area for me and be up against my own sc in Venice which would tie up the unit there, basically being asked to give up any ability to get any of the Austrian territory as Austria fell, I thought G would sort of help me with England as they obviously had a rock-solid alliance and propose that with E not attacking me and G being a friendly, I would be free to expand into Turkey. I mean if you have an alliance with someone and if sticking to the agreement of the alliance means your ally can't expand, that doesn't work in Diplomacy. When the assurances didn't come and England kept being aggressive, I figured my game was over if I let G into Vienna, so I stabbed them there and blocked the advance.

As far as the endgame, with F on the way out despite a terrific Alamo type standoff, G to the North doing nothing, E threatening in the west and Turkey having secured the southeast corner of the map, it appeared that E, G, and T had a solid draw alliance and no one wanted to push for the win. I was doomed. It was just a matter of time. At that point, E seemed to be relishing the victory over me and France and couldn't be reasoned with, G didn't answer any communications and seemed to me to be mailing it in. At that point, I tried to cede territory as quickly as possible to Turkey while holding off G and E for no other reason than to try and disrupt the balance among the "Big Three" to try and tempt two of them to attack the other to try and create a window of opportunity to get back in the game. It didn't work. was part of the draw only by the mercy of E, G, and T, so thanks! I appreciate it!

You guys are all very strong players. The above comments were written from the myopic viewpoint of Italy as I saw the game as it developed. Merely to give you insight into how a relatively inexperienced player viewed your moves. Obviously, I wasn't privy to your guy's thoughts and it is obviously silly for Italy to be criticizing Germany's gameplay, for example, when G, T, and E won the game and merely took F and me along for the ride. ;)

Sorry, this was so long, but Turkey's much-appreciated blow by blow recap sort of shamed me into expanding on my thoughts.
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DougJoe
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Re: AAR/EOG - Newbie Grind

#10 Post by DougJoe » Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:43 am

Vugg11 wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:11 pm
Original Germany here.

Very sad I could not finish the game. This was very fun and would love to do a rematch!

My thoughts the entire game was to keep my promises and I think I only broke 1 to France. I was originally planning a 17/17 split with E but I did think that trying to take Turkey was going to be a pain. E criticized my move letting Turkey take Bud but it was going to be a stalemate and I have always thought making a friend was better than making an enemy. So I thought a 3-way draw would be the best outcome for all.

Overall I think I played a clean game and that is enough of a win in my book.
I figured there might have been a 17/17 agreement in the works. I think you and E could have pulled it off in the end, but it would have taken *forever*. I was still worried about taking Italian centers at the end even though he was giving them to me because he would still be losing backup units. I think you played pretty well although you probably could have taken a shot at me and gotten enough SCs to stab E for the solo. It's too bad you missed out, I was annoyed that someone else got all the credit for your work.

Did you ever seriously consider attacking Rumania? Were you worried about getting attacked in Galicia?
WSChurch wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:25 pm
Hello! This is Italy,

Wow! I am blown away by the responses especially Turkey's. That was an amazing recap.
Thanks - it only took me about 3 hours to write. I like doing that sort of thing because it forces me to analyze my play and see what I could have done better/differently.
WSChurch wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:25 pm
...I didn't really get the sense from A that they were interested in going all-in against everyone else and the communications with Turkey lead me to believe that Turkey was a very good player and I wasn't sure I wanted to go up against them being unsure of Austria's commitment.
A/I can be awesome when it works. I'm glad I came off as competent!
WSChurch wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:25 pm
...so I expanded west hoping Turkey would not build too many fleets in the meantime, because that would make a later alliance unlikely. I was trying to be unthreatening as possible to Turkey and didn't want to have to divert units eastward.
I wanted to have just enough sea power to make you think twice about it.
WSChurch wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:25 pm
After getting Spain and securing the Mediterranean, I was hoping to secure that front and then move back east. I was hoping England would offer me a secure western front so I could move units out of there. I initially wanted E to dispose of France quickly and then be tempted to move on Germany. It seemed to me to be the most logical way for E to solo, as opposed to trying to go into the Mediterranean Sea where I had a pretty big presence. G had few fleets, the northern sc's were exposed, and G was going south. I didn't realistically see how I could pop out of the Med with nothing settled in the east, so I thought I was done expanding there.
There were definitely turns where, had I been playing England, it would have been very difficult not to stab.
WSChurch wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:25 pm
With England not providing me with any security and not hinting that if they finished France they would be tempted to turn on G, I decided to help France who was obviously a really, good player try and tie up England to hopefully create a stable stalemate in the west, so I could go east for the builds. France did a great job for a while against long odds, but E retreating to North Africa and the small gains that they did make as well as the eastern part of the map sorting itself out made me think it wasn't looking like France couldn't stabilize the front. So I decided, I should try once again to help England defeat France to tempt them to stab G. It didn't work. Even though G blocked E from expanding further into Russia by taking Moscow and G was very exposed, England wouldn't seem to bite. I was baffled by that.
He knew by weakening Germany he would make me stronger and give me the potential for the solo - he was right.
WSChurch wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:25 pm
In the west, Austria had a great plan moving forward and I was for it for the first couple of turns, but then I thought they got a little greedy. I understand wanting to get Austrian territory back, but the planned sharing of territory by Austria cut off my northern movement and so it seemed to me Austria was just preparing me for a stab and assault possibly with Turkey's help so, I did stab Austria to get Vienna.
You mean Trieste, right? 4th Austria's proposal's to me were very well written. He did pitch a A/T to me as one option but I think at that time I was just focused on stopping Germany and I was worried that if I attacked you England would swarm the Med and I didn't want that.
WSChurch wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:25 pm
Several moves prior to this Germany had wanted to move into Vienna and was going south. I was initially on board, but I didn't understand why G wasn't helping call England off in the west. If I was going to go help G, who was leading at the time, go into the area which was a natural expansion area for me and be up against my own sc in Venice which would tie up the unit there, basically being asked to give up any ability to get any of the Austrian territory as Austria fell, I thought G would sort of help me with England as they obviously had a rock-solid alliance and propose that with E not attacking me and G being a friendly, I would be free to expand into Turkey. I mean if you have an alliance with someone and if sticking to the agreement of the alliance means your ally can't expand, that doesn't work in Diplomacy. When the assurances didn't come and England kept being aggressive, I figured my game was over if I let G into Vienna, so I stabbed them there and blocked the advance.
Ah, that explains a lot. My intuition about I/G thinking about a deal was not far off... maybe Germany could have gotten England on board by offering a center or two so that England would get something out of it. I do not believe I could have survived a combined G/I attack, although, again, I would have made you both work for it.
WSChurch wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:25 pm
As far as the endgame, with F on the way out despite a terrific Alamo type standoff, G to the North doing nothing, E threatening in the west and Turkey having secured the southeast corner of the map, it appeared that E, G, and T had a solid draw alliance and no one wanted to push for the win. I was doomed. It was just a matter of time. At that point, E seemed to be relishing the victory over me and France and couldn't be reasoned with, G didn't answer any communications and seemed to me to be mailing it in. At that point, I tried to cede territory as quickly as possible to Turkey while holding off G and E for no other reason than to try and disrupt the balance among the "Big Three" to try and tempt two of them to attack the other to try and create a window of opportunity to get back in the game. It didn't work. was part of the draw only by the mercy of E, G, and T, so thanks! I appreciate it!
Like I said in my notes, if you had kept that Army in Venice in the last build phase like you said you meant to and gotten rid of TYS, there was a high probability I was going to take a shot at Germany.
WSChurch wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:25 pm
You guys are all very strong players. The above comments were written from the myopic viewpoint of Italy as I saw the game as it developed. Merely to give you insight into how a relatively inexperienced player viewed your moves. Obviously, I wasn't privy to your guy's thoughts and it is obviously silly for Italy to be criticizing Germany's gameplay, for example, when G, T, and E won the game and merely took F and me along for the ride. ;)

Sorry, this was so long, but Turkey's much-appreciated blow by blow recap sort of shamed me into expanding on my thoughts.
I enjoyed the reading! Italy is not the easiest country to play but it is so satisfying when you do well.
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WSChurch
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Re: AAR/EOG - Newbie Grind

#11 Post by WSChurch » Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:15 am

Great info! With regards to the error with my orders, I am not sure what happened there. I have very rarely had similar problems happen in other games. I think I am partially entering orders and then migrating off the screen to read messages and this makes the orders that are being displayed to not be the orders I am finalizing. I think that is what happened, I think.
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