Why Players Prefer Draw-Size Scoring

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swordsman3003
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Why Players Prefer Draw-Size Scoring

#1 Post by swordsman3003 » Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:26 pm

Hello my friends. I've written another post for my Diplomacy blog this month, once again in response to fan mail.

In this article, I respond to the question of why so many players prefer to play draw-size scoring on this website. My response turned out to be about 8,000 words....

https://brotherbored.com/why-players-pr ... diplomacy/

Enjoy.
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David E. Cohen
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Re: Why Players Prefer Draw-Size Scoring

#2 Post by David E. Cohen » Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:52 pm

An interesting, cogent and well reasoned article. I heartily disagree with your conclusions. :smirk: :-D
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Durga
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Re: Why Players Prefer Draw-Size Scoring

#3 Post by Durga » Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:57 am

Swordsman, you should submit something to diplomacy world
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jmo1121109
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Re: Why Players Prefer Draw-Size Scoring

#4 Post by jmo1121109 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:05 am

+1, I've added this to the diplomacy advice master post viewtopic.php?p=162#p162
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Kremmen
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Re: Why Players Prefer Draw-Size Scoring

#5 Post by Kremmen » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:21 am

An interesting read. It's particularly interesting that people think that way.

I believe the statement "Let me point out that most webDiplomacy players do not really care about the points" is correct and negates almost everything else in the article. Personally, I often don't even remember which scoring system is in use when thinking about a game. If I'm part of an already-locked-in draw and we're just in the process of killing off the last of the minor powers, then I might angle for an extra SC or two for extra points in an SoS game for the hell of it, maybe.
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Re: Why Players Prefer Draw-Size Scoring

#6 Post by rdrivera2005 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:01 am

I totally agree with the article. I still play SoS if I knew the players, but I found too many of the behavior Sword described (giving up if you are a small power) to consider SoS a decent score system. But it's still better then PPSC...

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Re: Why Players Prefer Draw-Size Scoring

#7 Post by captainmeme » Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:49 am

Kremmen wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:21 am
An interesting read. It's particularly interesting that people think that way.

I believe the statement "Let me point out that most webDiplomacy players do not really care about the points" is correct and negates almost everything else in the article. Personally, I often don't even remember which scoring system is in use when thinking about a game. If I'm part of an already-locked-in draw and we're just in the process of killing off the last of the minor powers, then I might angle for an extra SC or two for extra points in an SoS game for the hell of it, maybe.
The next line is quite important here.
"They care far more about their “Ghost Rating,” which ranks players by examining who they play against and weighing each match equally (similar to the Elo system in Chess). But to be clear, the Ghost Rating system also takes into account the scoring system used in a given match so that the effect on a player’s point total and Ghost Rating will be the same."

GR is considered the true ranking of players on the site, and it still takes into account the scoring system. Scoring systems are quite important as a result.


I disagree quite strongly with this article, but the response might take a little while. I don't think a short webdip post would do it justice.

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Re: Why Players Prefer Draw-Size Scoring

#8 Post by Claesar » Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:30 pm

I agree very strongly with this article and can attest the anology and facts presented about Magic are correct.
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Re: Why Players Prefer Draw-Size Scoring

#9 Post by captainmeme » Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:19 pm

The entire article is terrible and (I'm sorry Swordsman) it's clear that the author has not thought about the implications of SoS scoring at all. It's well written but that's about all I can say for it.
Claesar wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:30 pm
I agree very strongly with this article and can attest the anology and facts presented about Magic are correct.
No! No, it isn't!

SoS encourages dotting your neighbours? But in the previous paragraph it states that revenge play is encouraged in SoS (the one thing I agree with in the entirety of Part 3). Why on earth would you randomly dot your neighbours throughout the game? If you do that you're going to annoy everyone, be pushed onto the defensive, and may well have someone throw the game to an opponent.

SoS treats more SCs as more winning? Yes, it does, but there's an added dimension there. You get far, far more points against small split opposition than a small number of large neighbours - which lines up with the general objective of the game, getting yourself into a position from which you can reach 18 SCs. It's far easier to do that with split opposition and, more importantly, it's not possible to do that without a lot of supply centers!

As far as I can see, your argument here is that the draw scoring should run contrary to your actual objective so that players don't think that there's only one way to reach that objective - and yes, I get that telling new players that SCs are the most important thing can be an issue, but DSS is even worse in that regard because it tells new players that eliminating players is the most important thing and that actively hurts your chances of winning. If SoS is like telling Magic players that life is the key to winning, then DSS is like telling them that having the fewest land cards on the board is the key to winning.

Wanting a higher proportion of solo wins is fetishistic? What even is this argument? I could equally say that supporting DSS because it makes your solos feel more valuable is fetishistic. DSS makes solos less common by forcing players to choose between playing for a win or playing for the draw - playing for the win usually results in a worse draw than if you had aimed for a 3-way from the start. I would argue that solos being rare because people are not incentivised to play for them does not make them valuable, it just makes the scoring system useless.

SoS only warps game balance if you consider DSS to be the way that the game was meant to be played - which it isn't. Calhamer hated people not playing for the win (he writes a fair amount about it in 'Calhamer on Diplomacy') and the entire concept of a draw was removed from the rulebook for several editions.

Your alternative strategies:
A is the same as the desperado point you made earlier, which is a valid point, but you make it sound like players with 4 or 5 SCs are in this situation too and in reality they are rewarded enough to make survival worthwhile, just less than in DSS
B is sacrificing any shot at the solo and playing for the draw right from the start. Does encouraging a strategy where you deliberately don't play to win improve the game? No, not at all. This is exactly the thing that makes Carebearing so effective in DSS.

Sorry for the rant, but the entirety of this article feels like it's from the perspective of someone who has only briefly thought about SoS. Most of the problems mentioned are from the perspective of someone thinking only one turn ahead. It's just awful.
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Re: Why Players Prefer Draw-Size Scoring

#10 Post by captainmeme » Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:24 pm

I have no clue why Jmo added it to the Diplomacy Advice Master Post. Maybe because he didn't read it.
Swordman's done good work in the past, but a) this is not advice and b) it's full to the brim with misinformation and is aimed at new players. If anything SoS related should be added to the master post it should be an actual, useful guide on how SoS works and how it should be played, not someone saying that it encourages dotting and is fetishistic.
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Re: Why Players Prefer Draw-Size Scoring

#11 Post by Durga » Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:27 pm

I agree that this is not advice.

I also want to add that spending 10 in-game years to eliminate a player in DSS is a total snooze-fest and not the kind of diplomacy people should want to play.

100% agree with everything from meme
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Re: Why Players Prefer Draw-Size Scoring

#12 Post by rdrivera2005 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:25 pm

Durga wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:27 pm
I agree that this is not advice.

I also want to add that spending 10 in-game years to eliminate a player in DSS is a total snooze-fest and not the kind of diplomacy people should want to play.

100% agree with everything from meme
If you don't want to spend 10 in-game years eliminating a player just draw with him. People are thinking the game in a tournament logic, where you have a better result eliminating people or getting more points. And this is not the logic of the game, it shouldn't matter the size of the draw or how many centers you have, you either win (solo) or draw or get eliminated (or completely lose by allowing other player to solo). Points and rating and Sos are just suited for tournament play.
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Re: Why Players Prefer Draw-Size Scoring

#13 Post by swordsman3003 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:34 pm

If anyone is willing to write a contrary article about why experienced players sometimes prefer sum-of-squares scoring, I would gladly publish it on my blog as a guest post. It doesn't have to be long. I'd prefer something that is a stand-alone article on the benefits of SoS and limitations of DSS (rather than a take-down of my article).

PM, email me, or contact me through my blog if interested.

And captainmeme, you are specifically invited to do so, if you please.

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Re: Why Players Prefer Draw-Size Scoring

#14 Post by Durga » Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:42 pm

rdrivera2005 wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:25 pm
Durga wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:27 pm
I agree that this is not advice.

I also want to add that spending 10 in-game years to eliminate a player in DSS is a total snooze-fest and not the kind of diplomacy people should want to play.

100% agree with everything from meme
If you don't want to spend 10 in-game years eliminating a player just draw with him. People are thinking the game in a tournament logic, where you have a better result eliminating people or getting more points. And this is not the logic of the game, it shouldn't matter the size of the draw or how many centers you have, you either win (solo) or draw or get eliminated (or completely lose by allowing other player to solo). Points and rating and Sos are just suited for tournament play.
I was just in a game with Swordsman - where I wanted to draw with 2 smaller powers in the game. Unfortunately, draws are only possible where everyone who is still alive votes draw- and if someone wants a better GR or whatever, they can refuse to draw unless players are eliminated. I'm always happy to 'just draw' if I don't think I can solo. Others feel differently.
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Re: Why Players Prefer Draw-Size Scoring

#15 Post by Tugster » Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:03 pm

totally agree, I played a few SoS scoring when I first showed up, hate it, I only play Draw scoring, never ever SoS.
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Re: Why Players Prefer Draw-Size Scoring

#16 Post by Dejan0707 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:12 pm

rdrivera2005 wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:25 pm
Durga wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:27 pm
I agree that this is not advice.

I also want to add that spending 10 in-game years to eliminate a player in DSS is a total snooze-fest and not the kind of diplomacy people should want to play.

100% agree with everything from meme
If you don't want to spend 10 in-game years eliminating a player just draw with him. People are thinking the game in a tournament logic, where you have a better result eliminating people or getting more points. And this is not the logic of the game, it shouldn't matter the size of the draw or how many centers you have, you either win (solo) or draw or get eliminated (or completely lose by allowing other player to solo). Points and rating and Sos are just suited for tournament play.
That was nicely said. Exactly how I think of the diplomacy game. You do your best to win. If win is not possible you do your best to stop other player winning. It doesn't matter how many players are included into the draw. Of course many people would try to make the draw smaller by eliminating weak players which I do not participate in but few times I managed to take advantage of their greed and sneaked into the solo oportunity.
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Re: Why Players Prefer Draw-Size Scoring

#17 Post by captainmeme » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:09 pm

rdrivera2005 wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:25 pm
Durga wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:27 pm
I agree that this is not advice.

I also want to add that spending 10 in-game years to eliminate a player in DSS is a total snooze-fest and not the kind of diplomacy people should want to play.

100% agree with everything from meme
If you don't want to spend 10 in-game years eliminating a player just draw with him. People are thinking the game in a tournament logic, where you have a better result eliminating people or getting more points. And this is not the logic of the game, it shouldn't matter the size of the draw or how many centers you have, you either win (solo) or draw or get eliminated (or completely lose by allowing other player to solo). Points and rating and Sos are just suited for tournament play.
This feels like an argument in favour of SoS? Or at least an argument against DSS. If it shouldn't matter how many centers you have or what the size of the draw is, then the only thing the draw scoring is there for is to incentivise going for the solo. SoS is the only system which does this.
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Re: Why Players Prefer Draw-Size Scoring

#18 Post by captainmeme » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:10 pm

swordsman3003 wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:34 pm
If anyone is willing to write a contrary article about why experienced players sometimes prefer sum-of-squares scoring, I would gladly publish it on my blog as a guest post. It doesn't have to be long. I'd prefer something that is a stand-alone article on the benefits of SoS and limitations of DSS (rather than a take-down of my article).

PM, email me, or contact me through my blog if interested.

And captainmeme, you are specifically invited to do so, if you please.
Thank you for the opportunity to do this, I will write one up (w/o reference to the previous article if that's what you prefer).
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Re: Why Players Prefer Draw-Size Scoring

#19 Post by swordsman3003 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:09 pm

captainmeme wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:10 pm
swordsman3003 wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:34 pm
If anyone is willing to write a contrary article about why experienced players sometimes prefer sum-of-squares scoring, I would gladly publish it on my blog as a guest post. It doesn't have to be long. I'd prefer something that is a stand-alone article on the benefits of SoS and limitations of DSS (rather than a take-down of my article).

PM, email me, or contact me through my blog if interested.

And captainmeme, you are specifically invited to do so, if you please.
Thank you for the opportunity to do this, I will write one up (w/o reference to the previous article if that's what you prefer).
You are absolutely welcome. As always, I want to promote the hobby and educate the players. There's nothing more to my post than my best effort to answer the write-in question and explain my view.

I said what I have to say, but that's not all there is to say. I am really looking forward to adding your views as a guest post captainmeme. My view on this topic is so obviously, absolutely, one-sided that I do not trust myself to fairly explain the virtues of SoS and detriments of DSS. Accordingly, my goal of educating players can only be enhanced by juxtaposing our perspectives.

You're welcome to reference anything you want from my article that helps explain your views. I think you understand what I'm getting at -- I am encouraging you to explain your own views in a positive way so that your perspective stands on its own (rather than existing as a negation of my article). But I mean, heck, beggars can't be choosers; I'll post whatever you can cook up for me, haha. Also, I'll credit you in any way you wish. Thank you so much my friend!
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Re: Why Players Prefer Draw-Size Scoring

#20 Post by captainmeme » Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:56 am

So, I actually wrote an article this morning (well, it kinda morphed into a video script because that's what I'm used to writing) but it ended up being 3000ish words and I felt like nobody would be bothered reading a 3000 word response post, so I wrote the post you saw instead.

It's certainly not suited to what we're talking about here (because it's a response post and doesn't really touch on the benefits of DSS much) but it explains my reasoning a bit more in-depth, and is significantly less aggressive than the post I wrote (sorry about that).

If you're interested in reading it, it's here: Scoring Systems in Diplomacy.

I'm in the process of writing one that takes a look at the pros and cons of both objectively (although it's immediately been sidetracked by a section on PPSC).
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