Austria vs Bots

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Scmoo472
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2022 5:15 pm

Re: Austria vs Bots

#481 Post by Scmoo472 » Sat Nov 12, 2022 4:44 am

Trigfea63 wrote:
Sat Nov 12, 2022 4:13 am
Scmoo472 wrote:
Sat Nov 12, 2022 3:30 am
Curiosity might get me killed in this situation, but I think I prefer Pic - Bel w/ Burgundy supporting, Paris supports Brest to hold, and you hold off on Spain until you have Tunis to North Africa, and are definitely in Marseilles. That extra army in France will be massive as you'll be able to slide your fleet through Picardy, to Belgium, without sacrificing Brest. (Also possible for the convoy still, which would be pretty brutal to have an army with all that naval support on the mainland. Also the potential to get a Turkish fleet into the North Sea... Thats basically unchartered water for the Ottomans! (
Interesting. I agree, PIC-->BEL is better. It's not an assured move, because Germany will likely cut Burgundy's support from Munich, and England's Channel fleet can cover Belgium. I'm thinking rather than the useless support, Burgundy moves to Ruhr and Paris moves to Burgundy to bounce Munich. It potentially sacrifices Brest, but only if I get Belgium and Spain. Holland falls in 1922, and perhaps Kiel as well. Brest can retreat to Gascony if it's dislodged, or Picardy if we're looking for the Ottoman North Sea adventure 8-). I'm not sure I see the rationale for waiting to take Spain ... Marseilles will be covered (PIE-->MAR). Lots of ways to skin the cat, I suppose.
Well you've already admitted to youself that England has the position to hold you from MAO forever. So having a forward fleet that is still locked by the same stalemate as all the rest of your fleets just makes your Atlantic Voyage Titanicesque.. just a one a done. Waiting on Spain is just so that you can hold Brest from being dislodged, and then use North Africa as your support break on MAO. Having the army in Marseilles next turn before you take Spain also means you avoid being bounced out this turn, and delaying the German invasion by another year.

Trigfea63
Posts: 291
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:17 pm
Karma: 61

Re: Austria vs Bots

#482 Post by Trigfea63 » Sat Nov 12, 2022 6:46 pm

Scmoo472 wrote:
Sat Nov 12, 2022 4:44 am
Trigfea63 wrote:
Sat Nov 12, 2022 4:13 am
Scmoo472 wrote:
Sat Nov 12, 2022 3:30 am
Curiosity might get me killed in this situation, but I think I prefer Pic - Bel w/ Burgundy supporting, Paris supports Brest to hold, and you hold off on Spain until you have Tunis to North Africa, and are definitely in Marseilles. That extra army in France will be massive as you'll be able to slide your fleet through Picardy, to Belgium, without sacrificing Brest. (Also possible for the convoy still, which would be pretty brutal to have an army with all that naval support on the mainland. Also the potential to get a Turkish fleet into the North Sea... Thats basically unchartered water for the Ottomans! (
Interesting. I agree, PIC-->BEL is better. It's not an assured move, because Germany will likely cut Burgundy's support from Munich, and England's Channel fleet can cover Belgium. I'm thinking rather than the useless support, Burgundy moves to Ruhr and Paris moves to Burgundy to bounce Munich. It potentially sacrifices Brest, but only if I get Belgium and Spain. Holland falls in 1922, and perhaps Kiel as well. Brest can retreat to Gascony if it's dislodged, or Picardy if we're looking for the Ottoman North Sea adventure 8-). I'm not sure I see the rationale for waiting to take Spain ... Marseilles will be covered (PIE-->MAR). Lots of ways to skin the cat, I suppose.
Well you've already admitted to youself that England has the position to hold you from MAO forever. So having a forward fleet that is still locked by the same stalemate as all the rest of your fleets just makes your Atlantic Voyage Titanicesque.. just a one a done. Waiting on Spain is just so that you can hold Brest from being dislodged, and then use North Africa as your support break on MAO. Having the army in Marseilles next turn before you take Spain also means you avoid being bounced out this turn, and delaying the German invasion by another year.
Titanicesque is a bit harsh. I see what you're getting at, but at this point, I'm not overly concerned about getting into MAO. I'm trying to wrap up the solo in the quickest way possible. I need three more SCs, so Spain, Belgium, and Holland does the trick. If I lose Brest, I need Kiel as well. Or I need to retake Brest. It won't be hard to do that. Germany has no capacity to invade France any more. He ought to be more concerned about defending Holland, Kiel, etc., and I'm about to cut him off from being able to do that, too. I wouldn't be surprised if England covers Belgium and support-holds Spain, rather than attacking Brest. Anyway, here goes:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

That's pretty funny ... looks like we both got it wrong ...

Trigfea63
Posts: 291
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Karma: 61

Re: Austria vs Bots

#483 Post by Trigfea63 » Sat Nov 12, 2022 9:59 pm

So, I forgot about Germany's build, from the Spring destruction of its Picardy army. One of the perils of taking a long time between moves (and of being old). Ironically, it's now quite a bit easier to go after MAO, and more difficult to go after Holland/Kiel. For Spr '22, I'll focus on MAO and Spain. I can attack Spain with a force of 2, for a guaranteed capture, and MAO with a force of 3, for a guaranteed capture unless England gives me Belgium this turn (or does something quite clever in the Med with cut supports, but I'll discount that possibility with the bot). I'll need Marseilles for the Spain attack, therefore, I'll play it more conservative in the North. Here goes:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

Pretty solid! I got into Spain and MAO. Kept the status quo in the north, which is all I was hoping for. Belgium is a guaranteed caputre in Autumn, putting me at 17 SCs at a minimum. Portugal, Holland, and Kiel are all possibilities for #18.

Trigfea63
Posts: 291
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Karma: 61

Re: Austria vs Bots

#484 Post by Trigfea63 » Sat Nov 12, 2022 10:33 pm

Trigfea63 wrote:
Sat Nov 12, 2022 9:59 pm
So, I forgot about Germany's build, from the Spring destruction of its Picardy army. One of the perils of taking a long time between moves (and of being old). Ironically, it's now quite a bit easier to go after MAO, and more difficult to go after Holland/Kiel. For Spr '22, I'll focus on MAO and Spain. I can attack Spain with a force of 2, for a guaranteed capture, and MAO with a force of 3, for a guaranteed capture unless England gives me Belgium this turn (or does something quite clever in the Med with cut supports, but I'll discount that possibility with the bot). I'll need Marseilles for the Spain attack, therefore, I'll play it more conservative in the North. Here goes:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

Pretty solid! I got into Spain and MAO. Kept the status quo in the north, which is all I was hoping for. Belgium is a guaranteed caputre in Autumn, putting me at 17 SCs at a minimum. Portugal, Holland, and Kiel are all possibilities for #18.
Funny, if Burgundy had not support-held Ruhr, Ruhr would have been dislodged, would have retreated to Holland, and it would be game over. This turn I suspect bot-Germany will again attack Ruhr with 2. But in case he instead tries covering Holland from Kiel, I'll move Ruhr to Kiel. And I'll still retreat to Holland for the win if he repeats the attack. Here goes:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

Well, Germany wised up, didn't dislodge Ruhr. I'm at 17. Built an army and a fleet. Portugal, Holland, and Munich are all in play for #18 in 1923.

Trigfea63
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#485 Post by Trigfea63 » Sat Nov 12, 2022 10:55 pm

Spr '23, I'll take shots at all 3 potential 18th centers: Munich, Holland and Portugal, and see what happens:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

2 out of 3 ain't bad ... I can force Kiel in Autumn as well, for #20:

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?game ... #gamePanel

And that's it. England successfully convoyed to Picardy in the final frame.

For my 3 games on this thread, I scored 2 solos, and 1 survival. Pretty good for me. Having to explain what I was doing on the thread definitely made me think things through more carefully. Also, in both solos, I was in some trouble early on, and only managed to pull out the victories in 1923 and 1924 with persistence through many seasons.

It's been fun, but it takes a lot of time to write up these analyses. Others are welcome to continue on here. That's going to do it for me.

DougJoe
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Location: Alto, MI, USA
Karma: 71

Re: Austria vs Bots

#486 Post by DougJoe » Sun Nov 13, 2022 1:32 am

Trigfea63 wrote:
Sat Nov 12, 2022 10:55 pm
Spr '23, I'll take shots at all 3 potential 18th centers: Munich, Holland and Portugal, and see what happens:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

2 out of 3 ain't bad ... I can force Kiel in Autumn as well, for #20:

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?game ... #gamePanel

And that's it. England successfully convoyed to Picardy in the final frame.

For my 3 games on this thread, I scored 2 solos, and 1 survival. Pretty good for me. Having to explain what I was doing on the thread definitely made me think things through more carefully. Also, in both solos, I was in some trouble early on, and only managed to pull out the victories in 1923 and 1924 with persistence through many seasons.

It's been fun, but it takes a lot of time to write up these analyses. Others are welcome to continue on here. That's going to do it for me.
Congrats! I agree that doing the write ups takes a long time (and, personally, and I can't do it on my cell phone because I have stupid thumbs). I quite enjoyed reading yours. Kinda interning that in this game you didn't end up having to take any Russian centers.

Trigfea63
Posts: 291
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:17 pm
Karma: 61

Re: Austria vs Bots

#487 Post by Trigfea63 » Sun Nov 13, 2022 7:07 pm

DougJoe wrote:
Sun Nov 13, 2022 1:32 am
Congrats! I agree that doing the write ups takes a long time (and, personally, and I can't do it on my cell phone because I have stupid thumbs). I quite enjoyed reading yours. Kinda interning that in this game you didn't end up having to take any Russian centers.
Likewise, Doug, I've enjoyed your write-ups. And your advice on my games at certain crucial points definitely made a difference.

If this is to be the end of the thread, a sum-up seems appropriate. Including George's original game, we humans scored 8 wins and 3 losses, a 72.7% win percentage against the bots. That's quite strong, and quite a bit better than any of us have done individually, on average, in off-thread bot games. Maybe the small sample size is partly responsible for the difference. But I have to believe each of us benefited from others' comments, advice, and observations, from playing the games publicly, and from writing down our thoughts each turn. It's a useful lesson on improving our Diplomacy play generally. Congrats to all!

Scmoo472
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2022 5:15 pm

Re: Austria vs Bots

#488 Post by Scmoo472 » Sun Nov 13, 2022 9:17 pm

My turn!

Forum Bonanza
Classic Variant
Random - Italy! (Cancels will result in me choosing this country again to maintain the preselected map dynamic).
Disclaimer - I apologize in advance for Fall/Autumn switches, I learned to play calling it Fall when I was younger, and still do so even today. I will change my habits I swear!

I will play the first few years out to see that the game isn't going to be a whitewash (Have had games where Austria just throws himself away with poor move choices, and you're staring down a +3 Russia and +2 Turkey in Spring 1902 with +1 build, and an army in Tunis. Notes for my own cancels. Builds 1903 is the last phase where I will cancel a game. This is mainly because the AI's have no perception of changing targets even if they make no progress, and especially as Turkey, but possible with any country, a deadlock can occur just because the AI will not change targets, movements, or direction regardless of board dynamic. I will briefly describe games I had to cancel with the reason for why it was doomed below:

Take 1: Austria lost Budapest, didn't take Greece, and France went +3, built 2 fleets, and took GoL and WM on Spr 1902, so yeah... That was a GG.
Take 2: Here we are.

Spring Movements: 1901

Thoughts - I try to always start friendly to Austria, as it is very rare that opening aggressive towards them actually benefits me, and on the off chance that France or Germany does the Piedmont/Tyrolia/Silesia thing, then I would be a lot of trouble. Seeing how Turkey and Russia open up will provide me with more opportunities in the coming phases, but I see no advantage to opening hyper aggressive on a gamble. That being said, I do think Ven - Tri - Albania can work, because it can be super strong if Germany/France don't immediately lunge for Venice. Take 1 I did the normal moves, so I'll try for the aggressive take here. Some issues, Trieste H, or Trieste - Venice, or Vienna - Venice cancel this out, and probably just kill the hope right off the start. This really relies on Vienna - Galicia on this phase, and with even better chance, that Turkey goes for Armenia. But that’s the gamble! :)
Ven - Tri
Rom - Apu
Nap - Ion

Autumn Movements: 1902
France - Mid Atlantic Ocean - Spain - Burgundy
Not ideal here unless Spain holds. Mid Atlantic Ocean - Spain SC is a typical launching pad for coming straight for me with F-Marseilles in the build phase.
England - Yorkshire - North Sea - Norwegian Sea
There is no guessing what he does here. We could see convoy to Norway with Norwegian Sea - Barents Sea. Yorkshire - Belgium, Yorkshire - Holland
Germany - Please bounce in Sweden.. :)
Austria - Bounced Galicia, which is good. Should still take Greece via self support, and he will move to Trieste with Vienna, so the initial plan is working, it’s the following year when Venice is empty that the faith has to work.
Turkey/Russia - All standard, though having F-Aegean Sea is bad after this phase for us, but with A-Albania, we actually look okay.

APU - TUN
ION C APU - TUN
TRI - ALB

Builds: 1902
France - Takes Portugal with Mid Atlantic Ocean.. That’s a great sign, as well as going for Munich, now making enemies with Germany, and leaving Belgium open for Germany to take himself.
England - Standard set for attacking Russia here, both good and bad, will be vulnerable to Germany in 02 when he secures Belgium and Sweden.
Germany - Doesn't bounce Sweden, does correctly guess the Munich move by France, and picks up his +2
Austria - Absolute champion. Bounces Gal again, forces Greece, and doesn't block Trieste. Faith rewarded for another phase. Now as long as Venice stays open, I'm the vulnerable one here.
Turkey - Still nothing surprising here, went for the very safe R/T opening.
Russia - Not in Galicia after all of 01 is a major success for us, having pressure in Sweden from Germany after Spring 02 would be even better, but is forced to build on St.Petersburg, so at minimum, we're only seeing +1 down south.

Expectations:
France - A - Paris, F-Brest (if attempting an E/F, we'll see A-Marseilles I presume)
England - F-London
Germany - A-Munich, F-Berlin. I think with England going hard up top, he will forego trying to take Heligoland Bite, and focus on securing Sweden for himself.
Austria - Double Army is the best choice, F-Trieste is pretty much me dying as it doesn't benefit him at all.
Russia - F - St.Petersburg, A-Moscow (A-Sevastapol would be a welcome sight though)
Turkey - F - Smyrna..
Italy - F - Naples

Spring Movements: 1902
Twist of hands here, no fleet for Germany at all. Wish I got games as England where Germany doesn't build a second fleet… :I Got the rest though. :D Looks like the Western powers will be at odds, will comment on them when they become relevant, or anything major happens.

Thoughts - I have only one option for progress. Hope that Austria supports me to Aegean, and then we attempt to crush Bulgaria in the Autumn. The question becomes do I support Serbia to hold, or Greece. If Russia were in Galicia, I would think Serbia would be under more threat, and because of my positioning in Tunis and Albania, Greece can be taken back if Turkey does get it, so I think I have to choose Serbia, as if it falls, we just lose the slugfest eventually. I'm expecting a standoff in Gal from Russia and Austria, and Turkey to support himself to either Greece or Eastern Med. The other option, is do I expect Greece - Aegean (a support that can't be broken from Ion), and think about Serbia - Greece, Trieste - Serbia? While a possibility, this one seems a little advanced for the AI to conjure up, despite it being the most prone to succeed. Moreso, that Naples doesn't advance positioning, where as Trieste can be used to cover Serbia or Budapest from attack. Though I probably look like a madlad if I do predict that correctly.

Safe option -
ION - AEG
ALB S GRE H
NAP - ION

Kind of the best choice here, Moscow - Ukraine in the backline means Galicia will fall to Russia for sure, Rumania will be free to support Bulgaria - Serbia, but if it does, Austria gets into Galicia, and Serbia will have a retreat, which is a better situation than losing Greece entirely, as then I have to take it, and my build will not be as useful as we'll lose Albania or, just be in the exact same position again. So I think I have to hold that for him. But just to think about it…

Other option
ION S GRE - AEG
ALB S SER - GRE
NAP - TYS
Risky, as we lose Greece and the unit in a Spring move, Moscow - UKR also kills this, and we basically just lose from here, as I have to stab Austria to pick up another fleet to keep Turkey away, as Greece will translate to another fleet for the ottomans.

Autumn Movements: 1902
Well.. I was kind of right, and kind of wrong? Thankfully Serbia/Greece stoodoff with Rumania/Bulgaria, Austria self-bounced in Galicia, but Turkey got Eastern Mediterranean. Having faced this enough times by myself.. I'm pretty sure nothing happens from here. There is no way through for anyone until Austria takes Galicia. The only chance we have is for me to break Aegean, and hope that Eastern Med is making the move to Ion to bounce with Naples.

ION - AEG
NAP - ION
ALB S SER H

Builds: 1902
Successful infiltration of Aegean has been accomplished! Austria holds off Galicia again, and nothing happened anywhere else except Germany picking up Belgium. Germany please build a fleet and go for Sweden… :) Please?

Spring Movement: 1903
Well.. F-Kiel doesn't tell me he's going for Sweden, but it doesn't rule it out I suppose. There is still hope? Now the guessing game. Do I expect Austrian support to Bulgaria, or do I break the support from Constantinople? On one hand, Ionian Sea is vulnerable to a bounce with Eastern Mediterranean, but also will be able to be forced by Turkey in the Fall. On the other, going for Constantinople is risky in that my fleet will likely be destroyed, and we could lose the progress if Austria expects me to support, and we'll be right back to where we were. I think my gamble has to be to go for Bulgaria, and destroy the army, freeing Serbia to go for Rumania, and even if I lose the fleet in the Autumn, it is safer than losing both.

NAP - ION
AEG- BUL SC
ALB S SER H
TUN (On vacation)

Autumn Movements: 1903
Board:
Success once again! Moving to Bulgaria has resulted in a forced destruction, as well as the bounce in Galicia again. The rest of the board has done nothing except the German Fleet advancing to Hel, so no attack on Russia coming, but Russia is using 3 units to defend 2 centers, so that’s a major bonus for us. Now comes the big decision. What do I expect here. I'm still expecting Russia to try for Galicia, and to hold himself in Rumania, though a support to Bulgaria for Constantinople isn't out of the question. I would expect Austria to tap Rumania, as well as force Galicia, and support me to hold with Greece, or support Ionian to Aegean. I'm thinking my best option is to support myself to Aegean. Picking up Bulgaria should I get forced out of Ionian would allow for a fleet build in Naples, which I can then push Turkey back with, being that I could convoy myself back to Apulia should Turkey retreat to Adriatic, I can spare a destruction on Tunis and not be crippled with a loss of Venice.

BUL S ION - AEG
ION - AEG
ALB S TRI - SER (I don't know what else he can do really).
TUN (Still vacationing with the ladies)

This looks like it'll be an interesting game after all, and being that this is the final phase sequence in which I would cancel, this doesn't look like one of those games, so I'll wait a bit before deliberating my potential moves for this one. I'll try for a one phase per day on Spring/Autumn,(work will not always allow this, but I'll do my best) and will do the Builds/Retreats as soon as I see them. (Commentary on Retreats will be as-needed, most are non-consequential, so I'll wrap them into my thoughts during the proceeding phase).

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=458839

Trigfea63
Posts: 291
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Karma: 61

Re: Austria vs Bots

#489 Post by Trigfea63 » Mon Nov 14, 2022 3:22 am

Scmoo, it's great you're doing one! Interesting opening, too. I'm surprised that you're able to do a tricky cooperative opening like that with the bot. A lot of human Austrian players would have seen VEN-->TRI and flipped on Italy immediately.

In your current position, as you mentioned, you kind of have to wait for Austria to break the logjam with SER-->RUM. Although now you also have a build ... maybe you can build the army and move it up to Bohemia to support Austria into Galicia?

I'm spectating and will be following along.

DougJoe
Posts: 398
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:02 pm
Location: Alto, MI, USA
Karma: 71

Re: Austria vs Bots

#490 Post by DougJoe » Mon Nov 14, 2022 3:35 am

Same here, surprised that bot Austria didn't immediately turn on you, although Ank-Con and what it means is pretty hard to ignore... also perhaps the lack of Rom-Ven makes it easier. Who knows what goes on in those bot brains.

Spectating and following along as well.

Scmoo472
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2022 5:15 pm

Re: Austria vs Bots

#491 Post by Scmoo472 » Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:10 pm

Trigfea63 wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 3:22 am
Scmoo, it's great you're doing one! Interesting opening, too. I'm surprised that you're able to do a tricky cooperative opening like that with the bot. A lot of human Austrian players would have seen VEN-->TRI and flipped on Italy immediately.

In your current position, as you mentioned, you kind of have to wait for Austria to break the logjam with SER-->RUM. Although now you also have a build ... maybe you can build the army and move it up to Bohemia to support Austria into Galicia?

I'm spectating and will be following along.
An army has more opportunities for me. It opens the avenue of stabbing Austria through Greece and Trieste (pretty much the only way to ensure Bulgaria doesn't get destroyed now). My consideration for a fleet is to continue the alliance with Austria, but at the same time, it only takes an autumn move to Venice to compromise me. While getting Bulgaria for the build is good news, the only way to ensure Ionian isn't dislodged now is to attack Aegean from Bulgaria, but that means any support from Austria is wasted, and the potential to lose it is still high. With France and Germany taking the Channel, as well as North Sea, its only a matter of time before Russia picks up Norway, and an army in Ukraine would be devastating now, and surely be our downfall.

The only progress we could reasonably make would be (both orders)
Vie - Gal
Bud S Vie - Gal
Tri - Vie
Ser - Rum
Gre S Bul - Aeg

Bul - Aeg
Ion S Bul - Aeg
Alb H
Tun H
Nap S Ion H

This set forces an Aegean retreat (likely to Smyrna, but considering Constantinople is free to attack Bulgaria endlessly, that would open up as a possible retreat as well.) This nets Aegean as well as Galicia, and Rumania, Bulgaria, or Eastern Med would fall after. Considering these moves though, F-Nap isn't really useful, as I don't see Aeg - Ion w/ E.M S Aeg - Ion as a moveset that would come through. I think the army build benefits me more longterm, and also prevents Austria from getting greedy for a build. So lets go for it, and the moves I'll do are already here. So lets hope? :D

Scmoo472
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2022 5:15 pm

Re: Austria vs Bots

#492 Post by Scmoo472 » Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:43 pm

Scmoo472 wrote:
Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:10 pm
Trigfea63 wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 3:22 am
Scmoo, it's great you're doing one! Interesting opening, too. I'm surprised that you're able to do a tricky cooperative opening like that with the bot. A lot of human Austrian players would have seen VEN-->TRI and flipped on Italy immediately.

In your current position, as you mentioned, you kind of have to wait for Austria to break the logjam with SER-->RUM. Although now you also have a build ... maybe you can build the army and move it up to Bohemia to support Austria into Galicia?

I'm spectating and will be following along.
An army has more opportunities for me. It opens the avenue of stabbing Austria through Greece and Trieste (pretty much the only way to ensure Bulgaria doesn't get destroyed now). My consideration for a fleet is to continue the alliance with Austria, but at the same time, it only takes an autumn move to Venice to compromise me. While getting Bulgaria for the build is good news, the only way to ensure Ionian isn't dislodged now is to attack Aegean from Bulgaria, but that means any support from Austria is wasted, and the potential to lose it is still high. With France and Germany taking the Channel, as well as North Sea, its only a matter of time before Russia picks up Norway, and an army in Ukraine would be devastating now, and surely be our downfall.

The only progress we could reasonably make would be (both orders)
Vie - Gal
Bud S Vie - Gal
Tri - Vie
Ser - Rum
Gre S Bul - Aeg

Bul - Aeg
Ion S Bul - Aeg
Alb H
Tun H
Nap S Ion H

This set forces an Aegean retreat (likely to Smyrna, but considering Constantinople is free to attack Bulgaria endlessly, that would open up as a possible retreat as well.) This nets Aegean as well as Galicia, and Rumania, Bulgaria, or Eastern Med would fall after. Considering these moves though, F-Nap isn't really useful, as I don't see Aeg - Ion w/ E.M S Aeg - Ion as a moveset that would come through. I think the army build benefits me more longterm, and also prevents Austria from getting greedy for a build. So lets go for it, and the moves I'll do are already here. So lets hope? :D
Have played a bit further. Will recap now.

Spring Movements 1904
My plan to stab Austria here would have been a better choice, but even then, I would have picked up Trieste, and still lost the fleet, and then would have promptly lost Ionian as well.

Autumn Movements 1904
Now looking at this, Russias ability to use Black Sea extremely effectively, while Austria seemed to be reactively attacking whichever one it didn't previously support.

Spring Movements 1905
Well, Galicia and Bulgaria taken, but at the cost of me not expecting the Bulgaria move from Greece. Interestingly the AI put itself into a similar, yet weaker position than we were just in. (Galicia w/ no Greece would be debatably worse as the South is exposed) ((foreshadowing)). The fear of losing Ionian.. Should have built the fleet and took the stalemate I guess, but I think as AI vs RT w/ FG getting big, I needed to be bold, or we just crumble into a deadlock until Russia eventually took Norway, and then Ukraine, and did the Boh-Gal-Rum move to end it all.

Autumn Movements 1905
Trading Galicia, his Fleet, and Bulgaria for Rumania. Interesting. I was able to stave off Turkey from Greece to get another build for Austria, but now with only one fleet to our name. I think this is a wrap. I attempted to backdoor Warsaw to draw Galicia or Ukraine to move, hoping Austria would take the hint to force it back, but there were no dice to be had on this day.

Spring Movements 1906
Inevitably, Rumania and Greece both see foreign occupiers. I wouldn't be surprised if we lose Budapest, as that seems to be an Austrian special in my games when Russia gets Galicia. I am too spread out to be of any real danger to anyone. Even Austria is safe from me now.

Autumn Movements 1906
I think this one speaks for itself. (._.) I don't even have the positioning to attempt anything here. Ionian will fall in Spring, Albania is stuck, Silesia is so far away to do anything. Unless I gamble and attempt to convoy my army back to Italy, and mount a land defense maybe? Or hope like the devil that Albania gets destroyed somehow. Theres a very good chance that I will play through this rather quickly and fire another shot at a random game. I tried the bold opening, and it was good to see it work, but how to press the advantage I'm unsure of. Perhaps instead of moving to Trieste and then Albania, I could have gone to Tyrolia and then Bohemia, and convoyed Tunis to Albania? That seems like a better position, and more advantageous for us in the case of be deadlocked by Aeg/E.M/Bul.

DougJoe
Posts: 398
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Location: Alto, MI, USA
Karma: 71

Re: Austria vs Bots

#493 Post by DougJoe » Wed Nov 16, 2022 12:54 am

Scmoo472 wrote:
Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:43 pm
Have played a bit further. Will recap now.

Spring Movements 1904
My plan to stab Austria here would have been a better choice, but even then, I would have picked up Trieste, and still lost the fleet, and then would have promptly lost Ionian as well.

Autumn Movements 1904
Now looking at this, Russias ability to use Black Sea extremely effectively, while Austria seemed to be reactively attacking whichever one it didn't previously support.

Spring Movements 1905
Well, Galicia and Bulgaria taken, but at the cost of me not expecting the Bulgaria move from Greece. Interestingly the AI put itself into a similar, yet weaker position than we were just in. (Galicia w/ no Greece would be debatably worse as the South is exposed) ((foreshadowing)). The fear of losing Ionian.. Should have built the fleet and took the stalemate I guess, but I think as AI vs RT w/ FG getting big, I needed to be bold, or we just crumble into a deadlock until Russia eventually took Norway, and then Ukraine, and did the Boh-Gal-Rum move to end it all.

Autumn Movements 1905
Trading Galicia, his Fleet, and Bulgaria for Rumania. Interesting. I was able to stave off Turkey from Greece to get another build for Austria, but now with only one fleet to our name. I think this is a wrap. I attempted to backdoor Warsaw to draw Galicia or Ukraine to move, hoping Austria would take the hint to force it back, but there were no dice to be had on this day.

Spring Movements 1906
Inevitably, Rumania and Greece both see foreign occupiers. I wouldn't be surprised if we lose Budapest, as that seems to be an Austrian special in my games when Russia gets Galicia. I am too spread out to be of any real danger to anyone. Even Austria is safe from me now.

Autumn Movements 1906
I think this one speaks for itself. (._.) I don't even have the positioning to attempt anything here. Ionian will fall in Spring, Albania is stuck, Silesia is so far away to do anything. Unless I gamble and attempt to convoy my army back to Italy, and mount a land defense maybe? Or hope like the devil that Albania gets destroyed somehow. Theres a very good chance that I will play through this rather quickly and fire another shot at a random game. I tried the bold opening, and it was good to see it work, but how to press the advantage I'm unsure of. Perhaps instead of moving to Trieste and then Albania, I could have gone to Tyrolia and then Bohemia, and convoyed Tunis to Albania? That seems like a better position, and more advantageous for us in the case of be deadlocked by Aeg/E.M/Bul.
I wondered what fleet Bul was going to do after you got captured it in 1903. Agree with Russia using BLA well - he left Rum out to dry in S04, then used it well after that. I think the stab of Austria to get Trieste (maybe in the fall) might have saved you in the short run by building F Nap to keep Turkey out of ION for a little longer, but who knows how Austria would have reacted.

Yeah, by the end of 1906 it's not looking good, and it looks like R/T coordinated really well this game in what followed.

Trigfea63
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#494 Post by Trigfea63 » Wed Nov 16, 2022 5:39 am

DougJoe wrote:
Wed Nov 16, 2022 12:54 am
Scmoo472 wrote:
Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:43 pm
Have played a bit further. Will recap now.

Spring Movements 1904
My plan to stab Austria here would have been a better choice, but even then, I would have picked up Trieste, and still lost the fleet, and then would have promptly lost Ionian as well.

Autumn Movements 1904
Now looking at this, Russias ability to use Black Sea extremely effectively, while Austria seemed to be reactively attacking whichever one it didn't previously support.

Spring Movements 1905
Well, Galicia and Bulgaria taken, but at the cost of me not expecting the Bulgaria move from Greece. Interestingly the AI put itself into a similar, yet weaker position than we were just in. (Galicia w/ no Greece would be debatably worse as the South is exposed) ((foreshadowing)). The fear of losing Ionian.. Should have built the fleet and took the stalemate I guess, but I think as AI vs RT w/ FG getting big, I needed to be bold, or we just crumble into a deadlock until Russia eventually took Norway, and then Ukraine, and did the Boh-Gal-Rum move to end it all.

Autumn Movements 1905
Trading Galicia, his Fleet, and Bulgaria for Rumania. Interesting. I was able to stave off Turkey from Greece to get another build for Austria, but now with only one fleet to our name. I think this is a wrap. I attempted to backdoor Warsaw to draw Galicia or Ukraine to move, hoping Austria would take the hint to force it back, but there were no dice to be had on this day.

Spring Movements 1906
Inevitably, Rumania and Greece both see foreign occupiers. I wouldn't be surprised if we lose Budapest, as that seems to be an Austrian special in my games when Russia gets Galicia. I am too spread out to be of any real danger to anyone. Even Austria is safe from me now.

Autumn Movements 1906
I think this one speaks for itself. (._.) I don't even have the positioning to attempt anything here. Ionian will fall in Spring, Albania is stuck, Silesia is so far away to do anything. Unless I gamble and attempt to convoy my army back to Italy, and mount a land defense maybe? Or hope like the devil that Albania gets destroyed somehow. Theres a very good chance that I will play through this rather quickly and fire another shot at a random game. I tried the bold opening, and it was good to see it work, but how to press the advantage I'm unsure of. Perhaps instead of moving to Trieste and then Albania, I could have gone to Tyrolia and then Bohemia, and convoyed Tunis to Albania? That seems like a better position, and more advantageous for us in the case of be deadlocked by Aeg/E.M/Bul.
I wondered what fleet Bul was going to do after you got captured it in 1903. Agree with Russia using BLA well - he left Rum out to dry in S04, then used it well after that. I think the stab of Austria to get Trieste (maybe in the fall) might have saved you in the short run by building F Nap to keep Turkey out of ION for a little longer, but who knows how Austria would have reacted.

Yeah, by the end of 1906 it's not looking good, and it looks like R/T coordinated really well this game in what followed.
A few observations on the game. First off, very cool opening. I learned something new there. I think much of the A/I alliance trouble dates back to Spr '02, and your bot-ally failing to capture Galicia. VEN-->GAL, BUD-->GAL was pretty weak. Any Austrian player worth their salt plays VEN-->GAL supported by BUD. It would have worked. Who can say what difference that would have made, but it might have helped. These seemingly small tactical blunders -- or in other cases, tactical strokes of genius -- can be turning points that sway the eventual outcome one way or the other.

With the benefit of hindsight, the army build in Venice in Autumn 1903 was not the greatest. I know, I recommended it. I don't think it should have spooked Austria like that, but it did. Look at his Spr '04 moves. Terrible. Even if you had build the fleet in Naples, it couldn't really go anywhere. In fairness also, the R/T alliance worked together rather well. Pretty good coordination. Effective use of the Black Sea by Russia. No major errors that I could see.

Scmoo472
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#495 Post by Scmoo472 » Wed Nov 16, 2022 10:03 am

Trigfea63 wrote:
Wed Nov 16, 2022 5:39 am
DougJoe wrote:
Wed Nov 16, 2022 12:54 am
Scmoo472 wrote:
Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:43 pm
Have played a bit further. Will recap now.

Spring Movements 1904
My plan to stab Austria here would have been a better choice, but even then, I would have picked up Trieste, and still lost the fleet, and then would have promptly lost Ionian as well.

Autumn Movements 1904
Now looking at this, Russias ability to use Black Sea extremely effectively, while Austria seemed to be reactively attacking whichever one it didn't previously support.

Spring Movements 1905
Well, Galicia and Bulgaria taken, but at the cost of me not expecting the Bulgaria move from Greece. Interestingly the AI put itself into a similar, yet weaker position than we were just in. (Galicia w/ no Greece would be debatably worse as the South is exposed) ((foreshadowing)). The fear of losing Ionian.. Should have built the fleet and took the stalemate I guess, but I think as AI vs RT w/ FG getting big, I needed to be bold, or we just crumble into a deadlock until Russia eventually took Norway, and then Ukraine, and did the Boh-Gal-Rum move to end it all.

Autumn Movements 1905
Trading Galicia, his Fleet, and Bulgaria for Rumania. Interesting. I was able to stave off Turkey from Greece to get another build for Austria, but now with only one fleet to our name. I think this is a wrap. I attempted to backdoor Warsaw to draw Galicia or Ukraine to move, hoping Austria would take the hint to force it back, but there were no dice to be had on this day.

Spring Movements 1906
Inevitably, Rumania and Greece both see foreign occupiers. I wouldn't be surprised if we lose Budapest, as that seems to be an Austrian special in my games when Russia gets Galicia. I am too spread out to be of any real danger to anyone. Even Austria is safe from me now.

Autumn Movements 1906
I think this one speaks for itself. (._.) I don't even have the positioning to attempt anything here. Ionian will fall in Spring, Albania is stuck, Silesia is so far away to do anything. Unless I gamble and attempt to convoy my army back to Italy, and mount a land defense maybe? Or hope like the devil that Albania gets destroyed somehow. Theres a very good chance that I will play through this rather quickly and fire another shot at a random game. I tried the bold opening, and it was good to see it work, but how to press the advantage I'm unsure of. Perhaps instead of moving to Trieste and then Albania, I could have gone to Tyrolia and then Bohemia, and convoyed Tunis to Albania? That seems like a better position, and more advantageous for us in the case of be deadlocked by Aeg/E.M/Bul.
I wondered what fleet Bul was going to do after you got captured it in 1903. Agree with Russia using BLA well - he left Rum out to dry in S04, then used it well after that. I think the stab of Austria to get Trieste (maybe in the fall) might have saved you in the short run by building F Nap to keep Turkey out of ION for a little longer, but who knows how Austria would have reacted.

Yeah, by the end of 1906 it's not looking good, and it looks like R/T coordinated really well this game in what followed.
A few observations on the game. First off, very cool opening. I learned something new there. I think much of the A/I alliance trouble dates back to Spr '02, and your bot-ally failing to capture Galicia. VEN-->GAL, BUD-->GAL was pretty weak. Any Austrian player worth their salt plays VEN-->GAL supported by BUD. It would have worked. Who can say what difference that would have made, but it might have helped. These seemingly small tactical blunders -- or in other cases, tactical strokes of genius -- can be turning points that sway the eventual outcome one way or the other.

With the benefit of hindsight, the army build in Venice in Autumn 1903 was not the greatest. I know, I recommended it. I don't think it should have spooked Austria like that, but it did. Look at his Spr '04 moves. Terrible. Even if you had build the fleet in Naples, it couldn't really go anywhere. In fairness also, the R/T alliance worked together rather well. Pretty good coordination. Effective use of the Black Sea by Russia. No major errors that I could see.
I think the biggest difference if having Gal is that Rumania would have required Black Sea for support, seeing as Ser/Bud/Gal have a +3 move in. This means Bulgaria is only threatened by Con/Aeg, which was defendable. In hindsight, I think seeing that Russia was going to get Norway should have pushed me toward a fleet, as Moscow could move to Ukraine the turn prior to actually taking Norway, and thus the build comes later, but the support was already there.

Overall I enjoyed the opening, and having to think about how my AI would respond to the situations, and for a year or two it was good, but once we made it into the lineup, that final push to really break wasn’t there. I think the Bulgaria situation is remedied by forcing Aeg to retreat to either Con or Smyrna, Con opens E.M to be forced, or the Smyrna retreat, which opens Bulgaria to the Gre/Serbia attack. (Also allows Aeg to move to E.M on the expectation that Turkey covers Constantinople.)

I think I will definitely give this opening another go at some point to see what I can flush out for later turns. I’ll see about doing a more standard game this evening. I think I enjoy playing it faster, rattling off a few years, then sit on it. It was cool to know other people are watching though, makes me think a bit more! 😁

DougJoe
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#496 Post by DougJoe » Wed Nov 16, 2022 4:26 pm

I started round 53 (I play each of the seven powers in one round).

Italy 53 - https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=457880
Work with Austria, kill Turkey, get enough units just in time to deal with France, stab Italy, Solo.

Germany 53 - https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=458661
Deal with hostile England and semi-hostile France, watch France attack England, deal with Austria, make progress and watch Italy stab Austria, Italy wins.

Austria 53 - https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=459427 - "Trebuchet"
S01 - Hope Italy doesn't attack - he doesn't, plays to Pie and Ven. Russia has War hold.
F01 - Think about going for Rum with Ser S Gal-Rum, decide not to as expect Turkey to try Bul-Gre. Turns out Turkey wants Rum and gets it. Italy holds Pie and Ven. France covers Mar and can't build a fleet there. England and Germany clash over Denmark.

W01 - I consider building a fleet in Trieste to head towards Turkey, but decided on another Army for now. Italy builds F Nap, is he headed towards France? Turkey builds F Smy and A Ank, guessing he wants to pursue the attack on Russia but not sure why F Smy instead of F Con?

S02 - Okay, so the question is do I want to work with Turkey or attack? I think I want to attack. The crux of the question is what is BLA going to do? If BLA defends Rum, I think I want to try Gre S Ser-Bul. If BLA defends Bul, then I probably want to play Gre-AEG to either move in or bounce Smy-AEG. I start thinking about what Russia is going to do, and I'm pretty sure he's going to try Gal-Rum S Sev. So Rum can't support Bul. I also think that I want to help Russia take Rum for now, so I want to play Ser-Bul. I make the guess that Turkey is going to be Russia focused and BLA will support Rum, so I use Gre to support Ser-Bul. I then use Bud to support Gal-Rum and then decide it might be a good idea to move Vie-Gal, but I went back and forth on that a lot (maybe leaving Gal open makes for a less hostile Russian)?

Everything works out as expected, I take Bul and Gal, Russia takes Rum (which is destroyed). Italy is definitely going for France. Germany takes Denmark.

F02 - I think about making a play for Rum but decide against it, I think Turkey is going to switch gears to try to take back Bul, so I just defend everything this turn (including Gal). Not sure what else there is to do.

Turkey does indeed throw all his might at Bulgaria (and taps Sev). More interesting is that Russia tries to help England against Germany and England tries to help France against Germany but the German stops it all. Italy keeps pushing on France but without an attack from England or Germany, he isn't going to really get anywhere...

W02 - Again consider building F Tri, but don't feel safe enough with only Gal/Bud. Build army Vie. Russia builds A Stp (which I like better than A Mos, kinda wonder now if I could have gotten away with F Tri) and Turkey removes A Arm. I think this is the point where I have to be careful about an R/T forming from the ashes, as it were.

DougJoe
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#497 Post by DougJoe » Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:14 am

DougJoe wrote:
Wed Nov 16, 2022 4:26 pm
I started round 53 (I play each of the seven powers in one round).

Italy 53 - https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=457880
Work with Austria, kill Turkey, get enough units just in time to deal with France, stab Italy, Solo.
This should have read "...France, stab *Austria*, solo". It would be a neat trick to stab myself.

Trigfea63
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#498 Post by Trigfea63 » Sat Nov 19, 2022 8:53 pm

I completed my Russia game. Mostly it was an R/T vs. A/I, except Germany moved hard against me in 1902. I lost Warsaw, but with some good guesses, I was able to turn away the German attack and recover my position. By then, however, A/I had grown quite strong. Austria soon took SEV, Warsaw and Moscow and, thanks to poor endgame play by England, StP as well. I was hanging on by a thread in Norway and Sweden, with Austria at 17 SCs, when suddenly, A/I stopped attacking. After 3 years of no changes in the position, I offered a draw and the bots accepted. Nothing to write home about, but not a terrible result either, given the circumstances.

My record as Russia now stands at 3 wins, 3 losses, and 1 draw, a 43% win percentage.

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=457369

DougJoe
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#499 Post by DougJoe » Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:37 pm

Trigfea63 wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 8:53 pm
I completed my Russia game. Mostly it was an R/T vs. A/I, except Germany moved hard against me in 1902. I lost Warsaw, but with some good guesses, I was able to turn away the German attack and recover my position. By then, however, A/I had grown quite strong. Austria soon took SEV, Warsaw and Moscow and, thanks to poor endgame play by England, StP as well. I was hanging on by a thread in Norway and Sweden, with Austria at 17 SCs, when suddenly, A/I stopped attacking. After 3 years of no changes in the position, I offered a draw and the bots accepted. Nothing to write home about, but not a terrible result either, given the circumstances.

My record as Russia now stands at 3 wins, 3 losses, and 1 draw, a 43% win percentage.

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=457369
I saw that it had ended. That's a perfect example of where I would have put in for a draw as well, as neither Italy nor Austria seemed to want to do much of anything else at that point. The central triple coordinated pretty well there.

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