Austria vs Bots

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DougJoe
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#101 Post by DougJoe » Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:46 pm

Trigfea63 wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:24 pm
I will skip the naming of moves, just give you the beta map.
We can't see your proposed moves on the beta map. We only see the current positions of the units.
You can see the previous moves, though - I think that's what he was referring to?
And Bur/Ruh/Kie stops an "army only" attack cold, there's no way to break through Ruh S Kie.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#102 Post by DougJoe » Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:59 pm

Trigfea63 wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:57 pm
A further update on T-0128. Here are the Spring '03 results:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

The good news: I made it to Irish Sea. Now France might have to consider BRE support-hold MAO, and stop hammering the Channel. The bad news: Germany moved DEN-->SKA. He did also support NTH-->BEL again, and moved all of his other armies against France. Austria bounced me in MOS, and managed to lose 3 of his 5 centers on one turn, at least for now. Given the German move to SKA, I have to recalibrate a little. Here are some possibilities for the fall. Fortunately, MOS is vacant, so STP can safely support NWY, and NTH can be useful elsewhere. For one turn at least.

In Scandinavia: STP support-hold NWY, NTH-->DEN? Or STP support-hold NWY, NTH-->BEL, with support from ENG (and hopefully the German A HOL again)?

In the Atlantic: IRI S ENG, ENG S NTH-->BEL? Or IRI-->MAO, ENG-->PIC (both moves to cut support), and NTH-->BEL? NTH-->BEL still needs German support to succeed, but it doesn't need support from ENG (which could be cut). Or ENG-->MAO supported by IRI, NTH-->ENG?

I'm going to mull these options for a day. I welcome your thoughts.
I'd be tempted to move NTH->Bel not necessarily to get Belgium but because that might get Germany into Burgundy (at least based on the previous moves). IRI S ENC, ENC can support into Bel if you want (but don't expect it to work). I would not, however, take a shot at Denmark, as, even if you get in you'll be hard pressed to hold it next spring.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#103 Post by georgefc3 » Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:26 pm

Bummer...

Ok, in that case I will name the moves.

Fleets
Bla - Con
Aeg - Ion
Adr & Tys hold

The fun part:
Sil - Ber (sup by Prussia)
Tyr - Mun (Sup by Bohemia)
War - Sil
Tri - Tyr

No attack on St.Pete

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#104 Post by Trigfea63 » Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:20 am

Those are good moves. Italy will probably take Spain and Portugal, for 2 builds.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#105 Post by georgefc3 » Sun Aug 14, 2022 2:29 pm

Okay...
Trig writes:
Those are good moves. Italy will probably take Spain and Portugal, for 2 builds.
I went with those moves. I made my moves, gaining Berlin. I think I can force Munich this next turn. I also did builds, no reason to slow the game down.

This is the current map:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

General plans for the next turn is to take Munich and cover Moscow.

Looks like if I stab Italy this year I can get the win.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#106 Post by DougJoe » Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:08 pm

georgefc3 wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 2:29 pm
Okay...
Trig writes:
Those are good moves. Italy will probably take Spain and Portugal, for 2 builds.
I went with those moves. I made my moves, gaining Berlin. I think I can force Munich this next turn. I also did builds, no reason to slow the game down.

This is the current map:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

General plans for the next turn is to take Munich and cover Moscow.

Looks like if I stab Italy this year I can get the win.
Getting close to the end! Technically, you can't force Munich without help (Mar->Bur) because Bur/Ruh/Kie can support Mun. Not that France *will*, of course, but it's possible. No risk to you to try, after all, although it takes all four of Tyo,Boh,Sil,Ber to do so.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#107 Post by DougJoe » Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:09 pm

DougJoe wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:08 pm
georgefc3 wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 2:29 pm
Okay...
Trig writes:
Those are good moves. Italy will probably take Spain and Portugal, for 2 builds.
I went with those moves. I made my moves, gaining Berlin. I think I can force Munich this next turn. I also did builds, no reason to slow the game down.

This is the current map:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

General plans for the next turn is to take Munich and cover Moscow.

Looks like if I stab Italy this year I can get the win.
Getting close to the end! Technically, you can't force Munich without help (Mar->Bur) because Bur/Ruh/Kie can support Mun. Not that France *will*, of course, but it's possible. No risk to you to try, although it takes all four of Tyo,Boh,Sil,Ber to do so.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#108 Post by Trigfea63 » Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:31 pm

Here is another T-0128 update. The results of the Autumn 1903 moves, retreats, and winter adjustments:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameI ... Type=large

I decided to go with Doug's recommendation: don't attack Denmark, hit Belgium as Germany requested. I slightly varied the moves in the Atlantic, ordering ENG-->PIC to cut France's support for BEL, and LVP-->MAO to cut France's support for an attack on ENG. If Germany had supported me into BEL again, I would have captured it. Alas, he switched up his orders this time. The LVP-->MAO order worked: I didn't lose ENG.

I'm glad to see Germany moved back to DEN from SKA, and returned my support-hold order in Scandi (SWE S NWY). Germany also will have noticed that I used 3 of my 5 units to directly attack France, including his requested attack on BEL. The E/G seems to be on.

Elsewhere on the map: Amazingly, Austria lost 4 SCs this year, going from 5 down to 1. Austria is as good as dead. Russia bounced back to 3 SCs (from 2), but is in deep trouble from Italy and Turkey. It looks like an I/T battle is shaping up in Austria and the Ionian. And Turkey is in the driver's seat. Having gained 2 more builds, Turkey is up to 8 SCs. He is a serious threat to solo. That counsels against my attacking Russia in MOS.

Given the seeming alliance with Germany, and given Turkey's rapid growth, it's time to take some risks. There isn't much downside to playing very aggressively against France, and trusting Germany. Losing quickly to a German stab is no worse than losing slowly to a Turkish advance across Europe. (I'm not playing for a "Survive.") Here's what I'm thinking:

ENG-->MAO supported by IRI
NTH-->ENG
NWY-->NTH
STP support-hold MOS

I expect ENG-->MAO will succeed, NTH-->ENG will bounce, and NWY-->NTH will therefore bounce as well. Nonetheless, Germany will see that I'm vacating SCs adjacent to his units, and (hopefully) he should be inspired to reciprocate. France will probably retreat back to POR or SPA, but it's possible he could "forward retreat" to North Atlantic. Regardless, I can't wait any longer if I want to have a shot at a win here.

I will ponder this some more before executing. I welcome your comments.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#109 Post by georgefc3 » Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:29 pm

Trig

That looks like a good plan. You stand a good chance of getting Iberia with it.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#110 Post by georgefc3 » Sun Aug 14, 2022 8:04 pm

Ok guys.... These are my moves

A Tyr - Mun with three supports
A Lvn - Mos
A Pru S A Ber
A Vie - Tyr with support from Trieste

F Tyr - Wes

Other units hold. Here is the map:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#111 Post by DougJoe » Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:05 pm

Trigfea63 wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:31 pm
Here is another T-0128 update. The results of the Autumn 1903 moves, retreats, and winter adjustments:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameI ... Type=large

I decided to go with Doug's recommendation: don't attack Denmark, hit Belgium as Germany requested. I slightly varied the moves in the Atlantic, ordering ENG-->PIC to cut France's support for BEL, and LVP-->MAO to cut France's support for an attack on ENG. If Germany had supported me into BEL again, I would have captured it. Alas, he switched up his orders this time. The LVP-->MAO order worked: I didn't lose ENG.

I'm glad to see Germany moved back to DEN from SKA, and returned my support-hold order in Scandi (SWE S NWY). Germany also will have noticed that I used 3 of my 5 units to directly attack France, including his requested attack on BEL. The E/G seems to be on.

Elsewhere on the map: Amazingly, Austria lost 4 SCs this year, going from 5 down to 1. Austria is as good as dead. Russia bounced back to 3 SCs (from 2), but is in deep trouble from Italy and Turkey. It looks like an I/T battle is shaping up in Austria and the Ionian. And Turkey is in the driver's seat. Having gained 2 more builds, Turkey is up to 8 SCs. He is a serious threat to solo. That counsels against my attacking Russia in MOS.

Given the seeming alliance with Germany, and given Turkey's rapid growth, it's time to take some risks. There isn't much downside to playing very aggressively against France, and trusting Germany. Losing quickly to a German stab is no worse than losing slowly to a Turkish advance across Europe. (I'm not playing for a "Survive.") Here's what I'm thinking:

ENG-->MAO supported by IRI
NTH-->ENG
NWY-->NTH
STP support-hold MOS

I expect ENG-->MAO will succeed, NTH-->ENG will bounce, and NWY-->NTH will therefore bounce as well. Nonetheless, Germany will see that I'm vacating SCs adjacent to his units, and (hopefully) he should be inspired to reciprocate. France will probably retreat back to POR or SPA, but it's possible he could "forward retreat" to North Atlantic. Regardless, I can't wait any longer if I want to have a shot at a win here.

I will ponder this some more before executing. I welcome your comments.
Seems reasonable.

If you dislodge France from MAO and he does go forward to NAO, then you can play IRI->Lvp to (probably) bounce and then MAO->Por (which I'm guessing will be quite undefended... if he goes back, then it's probably a guessing game over Por/Spa.

This Germany is very confusing, what the heck was Mun->Tyo on about?

Turkey is strong, but only built one fleet. If he wants to come westward, he's at least going to need a couple of turns before he can get everything into place to crack a potential defense of ION, so that buys you a little time.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#112 Post by georgefc3 » Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:42 pm

Ok guys.... Is the time to stab?

Current map:
https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

Planned moves:
Berlin gets two supports
Tyr - Ven with support from Tri
Vie - Tyr
Tys - Rom
Adr - Apu
Ion - Tun
Con - Smy with one support

The Army in Venice will likely need to disband.

I am at 13 now and will get to 17 this season. I should be able to get Naples next turn. Can I also hold Tunis?

What do you think???

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#113 Post by DougJoe » Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:11 pm

georgefc3 wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 8:04 pm
Ok guys.... These are my moves

A Tyr - Mun with three supports
A Lvn - Mos
A Pru S A Ber
A Vie - Tyr with support from Trieste

F Tyr - Wes

Other units hold. Here is the map:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large
Seems reasonable.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#114 Post by Trigfea63 » Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:09 am

DougJoe wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:05 pm
This Germany is very confusing, what the heck was Mun->Tyo on about?
You know, I didn't think about it too carefully until you asked the question. But maybe, he expected Italy to order Tyo-->Vie. In which case, his move to Tyo would have worked, and he could then advance to Piedmont for another avenue of attack on France. I can't see any reason he'd want to attack Italy.
DougJoe wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:05 pm
Turkey is strong, but only built one fleet. If he wants to come westward, he's at least going to need a couple of turns before he can get everything into place to crack a potential defense of ION, so that buys you a little time.
True, good point. Maybe the timing isn't quite so compressed. We'll keep an eye on what develops between Italy and Turkey.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#115 Post by DougJoe » Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:24 am

georgefc3 wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:42 pm
Ok guys.... Is the time to stab?

Current map:
https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

Planned moves:
Berlin gets two supports
Tyr - Ven with support from Tri
Vie - Tyr
Tys - Rom
Adr - Apu
Ion - Tun
Con - Smy with one support

The Army in Venice will likely need to disband.

I am at 13 now and will get to 17 this season. I should be able to get Naples next turn. Can I also hold Tunis?

What do you think???
Not that you haven't thought of it, but be careful of a retreat to Arm and the possible followup to Sev.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#116 Post by Trigfea63 » Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:33 am

Yep, and you will probably have to stab to get the solo. The only possible alternative would be to wait for Italy to take out more French SCs, and hope the French disbands give you an opportunity to break into MUN, and beyond. But Italy seems more inclined to hold in place and move back eastward. So now seems like the right time to bring out the knife.

Your moves seem fine. If you want to open up all three home centers for builds, you'll need to switch around the attack on Venice.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#117 Post by DougJoe » Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:45 am

Meanwhile, in a parallel universe, in my game:

Spring 05 results, by power:

Austria took Vienna back at the cost of Budapest. Wouldn't be surprised if he's eliminated this year.
France didn't do much - he protected Bur and abandoned some defense of the boot to take Tunis. The lack of a move to Gascony is good for me. I'm not sure what the move to GoL is about. Doesn't look like he'll get a build this year.
Germany didn't do anything - must have been some bad weinerschnitzel passed around the German forces. Got kicked out of Vienna, not surprising.
Italy lost Tunis but got into Rome and can't lose it this turn. So Italy survives for another year - the more he harasses France the better!
Russia got Budapest, if he's brave he'll play Bud S Gal->Vie hoping Turkey taps Tri (and why wouldn't he?) Otherwise it's just Gal S Vie and a build.
Turkey's getting stronger, he'll get Tri if Russia or Germany goes for Vie. I would not be surprised if he and Italy bounce in Naples, nor would I be surprised if he leaves Austria alone and goes for a convoy to Apulia.

England played a little more conservative and advanced all his fleets forward while moving into Spa and WMS. I won't get a build this year, unfortunately, but that's OK.

Thoughts for Fall '05:

I think I'm going to be positional this turn. France will probably defend Bre as it is vulnerable to the fleets in MAO and ENC... I'll move Spa->Gas to setup for Bre next year, use WMS to support MAO into Spain (sc). Then ENC->MAO, and use NTH to support Wal into ENC... and of course defend StP. The Turk (like in Trig's game) may eventually be an issue but I think I have enough fleets that I could use to at worst keep him bottled up. We'll see. Germany is going to have to defend against Russia sooner or later, and I need to break France down enough before that happens.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#118 Post by DougJoe » Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:54 am

DougJoe wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:45 am
Meanwhile, in a parallel universe, in my game:

Spring 05 results, by power:

Austria took Vienna back at the cost of Budapest. Wouldn't be surprised if he's eliminated this year.
France didn't do much - he protected Bur and abandoned some defense of the boot to take Tunis. The lack of a move to Gascony is good for me. I'm not sure what the move to GoL is about. Doesn't look like he'll get a build this year.
Germany didn't do anything - must have been some bad weinerschnitzel passed around the German forces. Got kicked out of Vienna, not surprising.
Italy lost Tunis but got into Rome and can't lose it this turn. So Italy survives for another year - the more he harasses France the better!
Russia got Budapest, if he's brave he'll play Bud S Gal->Vie hoping Turkey taps Tri (and why wouldn't he?) Otherwise it's just Gal S Vie and a build.
Turkey's getting stronger, he'll get Tri if Russia or Germany goes for Vie. I would not be surprised if he and Italy bounce in Naples, nor would I be surprised if he leaves Austria alone and goes for a convoy to Apulia.

England played a little more conservative and advanced all his fleets forward while moving into Spa and WMS. I won't get a build this year, unfortunately, but that's OK.

Thoughts for Fall '05:

I think I'm going to be positional this turn. France will probably defend Bre as it is vulnerable to the fleets in MAO and ENC... I'll move Spa->Gas to setup for Bre next year, use WMS to support MAO into Spain (sc). Then ENC->MAO, and use NTH to support Wal into ENC... and of course defend StP. The Turk (like in Trig's game) may eventually be an issue but I think I have enough fleets that I could use to at worst keep him bottled up. We'll see. Germany is going to have to defend against Russia sooner or later, and I need to break France down enough before that happens.
Post Fall '05 and Winter '05:
All my moves worked just fine.
Italy and Turkey did bounce in Naples, which is good for me.
Turkey got Trieste.
Austria played a defense that made sense and hung on to Vienna.
France force moved into Mar and that allowed Germany to get into Burgundy.

Germany disbanded F Hol (love it)
Russia built A War (no surprise)
Turkey built F Smy (again, no surprise)

Now things get interesting.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#119 Post by Trigfea63 » Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:33 am

DougJoe wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:54 am
DougJoe wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:45 am
Meanwhile, in a parallel universe, in my game:

Spring 05 results, by power:

Austria took Vienna back at the cost of Budapest. Wouldn't be surprised if he's eliminated this year.
France didn't do much - he protected Bur and abandoned some defense of the boot to take Tunis. The lack of a move to Gascony is good for me. I'm not sure what the move to GoL is about. Doesn't look like he'll get a build this year.
Germany didn't do anything - must have been some bad weinerschnitzel passed around the German forces. Got kicked out of Vienna, not surprising.
Italy lost Tunis but got into Rome and can't lose it this turn. So Italy survives for another year - the more he harasses France the better!
Russia got Budapest, if he's brave he'll play Bud S Gal->Vie hoping Turkey taps Tri (and why wouldn't he?) Otherwise it's just Gal S Vie and a build.
Turkey's getting stronger, he'll get Tri if Russia or Germany goes for Vie. I would not be surprised if he and Italy bounce in Naples, nor would I be surprised if he leaves Austria alone and goes for a convoy to Apulia.

England played a little more conservative and advanced all his fleets forward while moving into Spa and WMS. I won't get a build this year, unfortunately, but that's OK.

Thoughts for Fall '05:

I think I'm going to be positional this turn. France will probably defend Bre as it is vulnerable to the fleets in MAO and ENC... I'll move Spa->Gas to setup for Bre next year, use WMS to support MAO into Spain (sc). Then ENC->MAO, and use NTH to support Wal into ENC... and of course defend StP. The Turk (like in Trig's game) may eventually be an issue but I think I have enough fleets that I could use to at worst keep him bottled up. We'll see. Germany is going to have to defend against Russia sooner or later, and I need to break France down enough before that happens.
Post Fall '05 and Winter '05:
All my moves worked just fine.
Italy and Turkey did bounce in Naples, which is good for me.
Turkey got Trieste.
Austria played a defense that made sense and hung on to Vienna.
France force moved into Mar and that allowed Germany to get into Burgundy.

Germany disbanded F Hol (love it)
Russia built A War (no surprise)
Turkey built F Smy (again, no surprise)

Now things get interesting.
That was smart, improving your position in Fall '05. It is substantially stronger. It's also excellent Germany removed his only fleet. I expect you are strong enough now to take on the landlubbers France and Germany at the same time, if you wish. And it would be good if Germany didn't get a build. On the other hand, R/T have something of a mini-jugg going, and Turkey has 4 fleets heading your way. Maybe not the best time to antagonize Germany.

And yet, how else do you get 18 centers as England? It seems in the long run, you have to beat Russia and Turkey to MUN-BER, and you have to secure Tunis before the Turkish armada does. Your fleets are probably adequate for the task. You could really use more army power on the continent.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#120 Post by DougJoe » Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:13 pm

Trigfea63 wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:33 am
DougJoe wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:54 am

Post Fall '05 and Winter '05:
All my moves worked just fine.
Italy and Turkey did bounce in Naples, which is good for me.
Turkey got Trieste.
Austria played a defense that made sense and hung on to Vienna.
France force moved into Mar and that allowed Germany to get into Burgundy.

Germany disbanded F Hol (love it)
Russia built A War (no surprise)
Turkey built F Smy (again, no surprise)

Now things get interesting.
That was smart, improving your position in Fall '05. It is substantially stronger. It's also excellent Germany removed his only fleet. I expect you are strong enough now to take on the landlubbers France and Germany at the same time, if you wish. And it would be good if Germany didn't get a build. On the other hand, R/T have something of a mini-jugg going, and Turkey has 4 fleets heading your way. Maybe not the best time to antagonize Germany.

And yet, how else do you get 18 centers as England? It seems in the long run, you have to beat Russia and Turkey to MUN-BER, and you have to secure Tunis before the Turkish armada does. Your fleets are probably adequate for the task. You could really use more army power on the continent.
England could almost always use more army power on the continent. ;)

I think I want to hold off on going after Germany for now, as I want him to be the army bulwark against the east. This isn't the first England I've played where I've been almost all fleets and Germany's been almost all armies... I will attack him eventually, just not yet.

Yes, R/T definitely are aligned (or at least non-hostile) at this point. Other than Turkey trying to take Rumania in F01, they pretty much have been the whole game.

The moves I have saved at this point are as follows:
Bar S StP
StP S (G) Pru-Liv (don't expect this to do anything, but why not?)
NTH -> ENC -> Bre S MAO
Gas -> Mar S Spa
WMS -> GOL

It's not... great. I certainly won't lose anything this turn (except possibly WMS and that would come at the cost of Mar) but I'm not guaranteed to gain anything, either. Still thinking about it.

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