Austria vs Bots

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georgefc3
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#81 Post by georgefc3 » Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:37 am

Guys

I ***did*** move to the Adriatic. I don't think Italy will consider this a stab or anything negative. The bots don't like it when you take centers from them but are ok with allies taking sea spaces. In my previous games I moved to Adriatic, Ionian and even Tyrrhenian spaces without a negative reaction from Italy.

My attack on Ankara failed. Not sure why. Here is the latest map.

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

DougJoe
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#82 Post by DougJoe » Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:18 pm

georgefc3 wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:37 am
Guys

I ***did*** move to the Adriatic. I don't think Italy will consider this a stab or anything negative. The bots don't like it when you take centers from them but are ok with allies taking sea spaces. In my previous games I moved to Adriatic, Ionian and even Tyrrhenian spaces without a negative reaction from Italy.

My attack on Ankara failed. Not sure why. Here is the latest map.

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large
Con's support order was in the wrong direction. You supported Ank->Bul instead of Bul->Ank... just out of curiosity, have you tried the new beta interface yet?

DougJoe
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#83 Post by DougJoe » Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:57 pm

DougJoe wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:47 pm

Update, post Autumn 1904:

Well, I took Spain. Austria bounced France out of Tunis, so France is -1 now... but Austria *finally* moved from Vienna to take back Bud and lost Vie to the German in the process, which means Germany gets a build. Turkey took Ser and get two builds (like I said, here it comes!) Russia does *lose* a unit and it would be nice if he removes Livonia.

What to build? Fleet London, then either A Lvp or F Edi. I suspect Germany will build F Berlin with it moving to Baltic the next turn, so I feel I need to build F Edi to balance, where I could move NTH-Den S Swe, Edi-NTH. But then I'm not sure where I punch at next - probably depends on what the other builds are.
Spring 1905 brain dump:
Germany built another army, which is a great relief. France removed Army Rome, which now gives the Italian some harassment options, which I like to see as well. Turkey built a fleet and and army, and with only 6 centers has (in my humble opinion) a very strong position. He will undoubtedly move to ION (vacated by the Austrian fleet disband) this turn, which will cause all sorts of trouble.

Ok, now what? The given is that BAR S StP again... everything else... hm. So many options.

The German front is annoying because I can't guarantee NTH->Den without support from Swe, when I'd really like to move Swe-Nor and use the convoy chain to get that army south... but I can't move NTH to ENC and Lon to ENC, of course... what about Swe->Den and then Lon->Wal, Edi-NTH, NTH->ENC? Wales would be ready to move to ENC the next turn, especially if ENC then went to MAO. Hm. So I guess it's either Edi>NTH, NTH->Den S Swe, Lon->ENC *or* Edi->NTH, NTH->ENC, Swe->Den, Lon->Wal.

Iberia and its surroundings: the army in Portugal probably needs to find a new home (although it's nice that it can defend Spain). Let's think about some options down here:

First off, I could play MAO->Naf, Spa->WMS, Por->Spa. If it all goes (which I expect it to as I don't think France would play TYS->WMS) then I've got two on Tunis, the center I need across the stalemate line. It would leave Spain vulnerable to a move to Gascony, and unfortunately I can't backfill the unit in MAO in one turn. I could potentially get to Tunis before Turkey...

Otherwise, what else makes sense? Convoying Por->Gas would be nice (which, if it goes, probably means I get Bre in the fall) but I would half expect France to support Par->Gas to come at Spain... moving Por->Spa and Spa->WMS isn't bad - it at least gets a unit on Tunis to keep France or Turkey out?

This one's gonna need a little more thought.

georgefc3
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#84 Post by georgefc3 » Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:15 pm

Doug writes
Con's support order was in the wrong direction. You supported Ank->Bul instead of Bul->Ank... just out of curiosity, have you tried the new beta interface yet?
Not sure. Normally I make moves from the map screen. I make the occasional screw up (as you just witnessed) but I like it and is pretty easy to use. By the way, is there a way to see the moves you submitted other than looking at the map????

Moves for this turn (proposed)

A Bul - Ank via convoy with support from Con
A Mos S War
A Ukr S Mos
A Gal - Sil with support from Warsaw
A Vie - Tyrolia with support from Boh
F Adr - Ion

Like I said earlier - I don't think that the fleet move to Ion or any of the sea spaces will be a problem for Italy. In other games he docilely allowed me to move to these spaces. Bots being bots.

Which is one reason why I haven't really wanted to get stabby with Italy. Let him take out France and put pressure on England and Germany. Maybe England will withdraw from St. Pete??? Who knows. I am not going to move to Livonia. We'll see.

As always I value your opinions. Thoughts, comments or suggestions before I commit to this plan?

Thanks!

Oh! Forgot the quick link:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

Trigfea63
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#85 Post by Trigfea63 » Fri Aug 12, 2022 9:14 pm

georgefc3 wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:15 pm
Doug writes
Con's support order was in the wrong direction. You supported Ank->Bul instead of Bul->Ank... just out of curiosity, have you tried the new beta interface yet?
Not sure. Normally I make moves from the map screen. I make the occasional screw up (as you just witnessed) but I like it and is pretty easy to use. By the way, is there a way to see the moves you submitted other than looking at the map????

Moves for this turn (proposed)

A Bul - Ank via convoy with support from Con
A Mos S War
A Ukr S Mos
A Gal - Sil with support from Warsaw
A Vie - Tyrolia with support from Boh
F Adr - Ion

Like I said earlier - I don't think that the fleet move to Ion or any of the sea spaces will be a problem for Italy. In other games he docilely allowed me to move to these spaces. Bots being bots.

Which is one reason why I haven't really wanted to get stabby with Italy. Let him take out France and put pressure on England and Germany. Maybe England will withdraw from St. Pete??? Who knows. I am not going to move to Livonia. We'll see.

As always I value your opinions. Thoughts, comments or suggestions before I commit to this plan?

Thanks!

Oh! Forgot the quick link:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large
I think your proposed moves are right on target. Your comment about STP is interesting. I noticed England is under quite a lot of pressure from France and Germany. It's not entirely unlikely that England will lose a center or two, and will remove the distant STP unit rather than one that can help defend the homeland. Germany might soon be the bigger obstacle to capturing STP.

georgefc3
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#86 Post by georgefc3 » Fri Aug 12, 2022 9:44 pm

Guys

It helps if you order your supports correctly. I am now at 10 centers, am allied with England and Italy and am pretty much sitting pretty.

Italy gets a build and I expect a fleet build in Naples. Turkey and Russia will be out after disbands. Germany lost a center and has to disband one. I am getting two builds and think a fleet and and army in Vienna makes sense.

Looks like Munich or Berlin could fall next year.

Here is a link to the latest map:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

Thoughts, comments?

Trigfea63
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#87 Post by Trigfea63 » Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:01 pm

Doug's game:
The German front is annoying because I can't guarantee NTH->Den without support from Swe, when I'd really like to move Swe-Nor and use the convoy chain to get that army south... but I can't move NTH to ENC and Lon to ENC, of course... what about Swe->Den and then Lon->Wal, Edi-NTH, NTH->ENC? Wales would be ready to move to ENC the next turn, especially if ENC then went to MAO. Hm. So I guess it's either Edi>NTH, NTH->Den S Swe, Lon->ENC *or* Edi->NTH, NTH->ENC, Swe->Den, Lon->Wal.

Iberia and its surroundings: the army in Portugal probably needs to find a new home (although it's nice that it can defend Spain). Let's think about some options down here:

First off, I could play MAO->Naf, Spa->WMS, Por->Spa. If it all goes (which I expect it to as I don't think France would play TYS->WMS) then I've got two on Tunis, the center I need across the stalemate line. It would leave Spain vulnerable to a move to Gascony, and unfortunately I can't backfill the unit in MAO in one turn. I could potentially get to Tunis before Turkey...

Otherwise, what else makes sense? Convoying Por->Gas would be nice (which, if it goes, probably means I get Bre in the fall) but I would half expect France to support Par->Gas to come at Spain... moving Por->Spa and Spa->WMS isn't bad - it at least gets a unit on Tunis to keep France or Turkey out?
If you can get more fleets into Iberia and the Med, you should be able to take and hold Tunis. And prevent Turkey advancing beyond Italy. MAO is a bottleneck, so it's best to get the procession of fleets moving to NTH, ENG, MAO without delay. That suggests your first option, MAO-->NAF, SPA-->WMS, POR-->SPA, is maybe the best? Germany's fleet Belgium could possibly move to ENG or NTH, which could bottle up your fleet moves.

In the North, a fleet in DEN is normally a lot better than an army. In this situation, though, it's tricky to get NTH into DEN while also keeping your fleets flowing to the Med. Maybe you can get away with Sweden bouncing Germany, protecting all of Scandinavia with one unit.

The fundamental problem is, right now you are spread thin. You're sort of controlling the entire span of sea and coastal territory from STP to Spain with 9 units. It's probably best to focus on one point of attack where you want to gain ground and just try to hold the line elsewhere.

DougJoe
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#88 Post by DougJoe » Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:27 pm

georgefc3 wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:15 pm

Not sure. Normally I make moves from the map screen. I make the occasional screw up (as you just witnessed) but I like it and is pretty easy to use. By the way, is there a way to see the moves you submitted other than looking at the map????
There's two user interfaces for playing - the original "drop down box for each unit" user interface, and then the newer, "point and click on the map" style. In the original user interface, it's always been weird to me that the support orders are in a "to destination from source" format (Con support move to Ank from Bul) instead of a "from source to destination' format (Con support move from Bul to Ank). But that's just me. I've made the same exact mistake myself, and preview arrows don't always save you (you do know about the preview button, right?)

Anyway, in the older (standard) user interface, the orders are text so you just read them. If you are using that interface, there is a "play beta" link at the top which takes you to the "point and click on the map" version.
In that version of the UI, you can click on the icon just below the home icon. It will bring up a window with different sections that can be clicked. One of those sections is "Orders" and clicking on it will show your current moves.

DougJoe
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#89 Post by DougJoe » Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:36 pm

georgefc3 wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 9:44 pm
Guys

It helps if you order your supports correctly. I am now at 10 centers, am allied with England and Italy and am pretty much sitting pretty.

Italy gets a build and I expect a fleet build in Naples. Turkey and Russia will be out after disbands. Germany lost a center and has to disband one. I am getting two builds and think a fleet and and army in Vienna makes sense.

Looks like Munich or Berlin could fall next year.

Here is a link to the latest map:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

Thoughts, comments?
You're rolling, just keep on rolling. Now that StP is vacated you might have a shot at it - doesn't hurt to try. Honestly, I'll be surprised if you don't win this one.

I once saw a bot Austria stab a bot Italy for Venice, Rome, and Naples all in the same turn to win. I knew it was coming, but couldn't do anything about it. It was kind of... pretty. https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=310884

Trigfea63
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#90 Post by Trigfea63 » Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:47 pm

I agree. You're looking good for an Austrian solo!

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#91 Post by Trigfea63 » Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:55 pm

Here is where things stand with T-0128:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

Doug, your predictions of the bot moves last round were 100% correct. Germany took Sweden for himself, France attacked the Channel with support, and Russia didn't defend StP. The interesting order was Germany's support of my Fleet NTH moving to Belgium. I'm glad I didn't try that, but it's good Germany still wants to be friendly.

I'm thinking to build F LVP. I don't think I need an army for defense, and right now there's nowhere I could convoy one for offense. I hope Russia removes the GoB fleet, but I expect he'll probably remove Galicia and try to take back StP. France and Germany also have builds.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#92 Post by Trigfea63 » Sat Aug 13, 2022 3:41 am

That suggests your first option, MAO-->NAF, SPA-->WMS, POR-->SPA, is maybe the best?
Doug: Now as I'm looking at it again, there is a danger in this moveset. If France moves BRE-->GAS, MAR-->SPA (or MAR Hold), you could lose Spain in the fall: GAS-->SPA S MAR, and TYS-->WES to cut support. Maybe there is no perfect answer, but these French moves don't seem totally improbable. Perhaps it's better to wait a turn before leaving MAO, when you can backfill it from ENG?

georgefc3
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#93 Post by georgefc3 » Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:33 am

George's Austria game.

I build a fleet and and an army... Italy built an army in Venice.
Doug wrote:

There's two user interfaces for playing - the original "drop down box for each unit" user interface, and then the newer, "point and click on the map" style. In the original user interface, it's always been weird to me that the support orders are in a "to destination from source" format (Con support move to Ank from Bul) instead of a "from source to destination' format (Con support move from Bul to Ank). But that's just me. I've made the same exact mistake myself, and preview arrows don't always save you (you do know about the preview button, right?)
I like the drop down box. I get a little confused by the support moves section. Normally I check and double check but sometimes I just get lazy.

Back to the game.... Fleet moves all go west. TYR, ADR, AEG and CON. Army moves also west.

Vie - Tri
Tyr - Mun
Gal - Sil (support from Boh)
War - Pru
Mos - Lvn
Ukr - War

Current Map:
https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

I clicked on Play Beta and found it helpful. Can you guys see this?

https://webdiplomacy.net/beta/?gameID=429820

Comments or suggestions?

DougJoe
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#94 Post by DougJoe » Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:32 pm

georgefc3 wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:33 am
George's Austria game.

I build a fleet and and an army... Italy built an army in Venice.
Doug wrote:

There's two user interfaces for playing - the original "drop down box for each unit" user interface, and then the newer, "point and click on the map" style. In the original user interface, it's always been weird to me that the support orders are in a "to destination from source" format (Con support move to Ank from Bul) instead of a "from source to destination' format (Con support move from Bul to Ank). But that's just me. I've made the same exact mistake myself, and preview arrows don't always save you (you do know about the preview button, right?)
I like the drop down box. I get a little confused by the support moves section. Normally I check and double check but sometimes I just get lazy.

Back to the game.... Fleet moves all go west. TYR, ADR, AEG and CON. Army moves also west.

Vie - Tri
Tyr - Mun
Gal - Sil (support from Boh)
War - Pru
Mos - Lvn
Ukr - War

Current Map:
https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

I clicked on Play Beta and found it helpful. Can you guys see this?

https://webdiplomacy.net/beta/?gameID=429820

Comments or suggestions?
All seems reasonable for the Spring. I can see the map on the beta page. Some people really like the beta interface. I'm ok with it on my laptop, but I find it hard to use on my cell phone.

DougJoe
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#95 Post by DougJoe » Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:54 pm

Trigfea63 wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:55 pm
Here is where things stand with T-0128:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

Doug, your predictions of the bot moves last round were 100% correct. Germany took Sweden for himself, France attacked the Channel with support, and Russia didn't defend StP. The interesting order was Germany's support of my Fleet NTH moving to Belgium. I'm glad I didn't try that, but it's good Germany still wants to be friendly.
Where I work we play board games at lunchtime and my fellow board gamers have often accused me of being a robot so, takes one to know one, I guess? ;)
Trigfea63 wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:55 pm
I'm thinking to build F LVP. I don't think I need an army for defense, and right now there's nowhere I could convoy one for offense. I hope Russia removes the GoB fleet, but I expect he'll probably remove Galicia and try to take back StP. France and Germany also have builds.
It's always kind of funny when each power decides to support the other in.
If you think Germany will stay non-hostile, then yes, I think F Lvp is the right build, although if France builds F Mar (which is what I would expect) it's just going to be more stalemate once he moves Mar->Spa, which keeps you out of MAO. The pain in the tail is that even if you do kick him out of MAO, he can always retreat to whichever of NAO/IRI is open...

It'll be interesting to see the builds and spring moves, especially from Germany.

(Side note: personally, I think that E/I or G/I can make quicker work of France than E/G can, but that's damn near impossible to coordinate as E with bot Italy.)

Trigfea63
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#96 Post by Trigfea63 » Sat Aug 13, 2022 4:03 pm

George's game:

Vie - Tri
Tyr - Mun
Gal - Sil (support from Boh)
War - Pru
Mos - Lvn
Ukr - War

I agree with Doug, these are solid moves. I think you've got this one in the bag tbh. You should get Munich and Berlin this year, maybe StP too.

My game:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

The builds couldn't have gone better. France and Germany both built armies, and Russia removed the GoB fleet. England has life! My plan is to keep trusting Germany, and keep pushing against France. It will be tough sledding, but I expect Germany and I together will crack him sooner or later. I'll probably take a stab at Moscow, too. You never know, Austria or Turkey might support me in.
DougJoe wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:54 pm
Where I work we play board games at lunchtime and my fellow board gamers have often accused me of being a robot so, takes one to know one, I guess? ;)
Looks like you have some human fallibility in you after all :-D
DougJoe wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:54 pm
(Side note: personally, I think that E/I or G/I can make quicker work of France than E/G can, but that's damn near impossible to coordinate as E with bot Italy.)
I agree, but I don't mind that Italy is occupied with Austria. Italy often swoops in and gets the lion's share of the spoils, after E and/or G have done the lion's share of the work breaking down France's defenses.

georgefc3
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#97 Post by georgefc3 » Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:44 pm

This is about the Austria game...
Trig writes:

I agree with Doug, these are solid moves. I think you've got this one in the bag tbh. You should get Munich and Berlin this year, maybe StP too.
Thanks for the vote of confidence... I would love it if I could get to 18 without stabbing Italy....

This is the current map, after retreats:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

I will skip the naming of moves, just give you the beta map.

https://webdiplomacy.net/beta/?gameID=429820

Comments?

Trigfea63
Posts: 219
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Karma: 60

Re: Austria vs Bots

#98 Post by Trigfea63 » Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:57 pm

A further update on T-0128. Here are the Spring '03 results:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

The good news: I made it to Irish Sea. Now France might have to consider BRE support-hold MAO, and stop hammering the Channel. The bad news: Germany moved DEN-->SKA. He did also support NTH-->BEL again, and moved all of his other armies against France. Austria bounced me in MOS, and managed to lose 3 of his 5 centers on one turn, at least for now. Given the German move to SKA, I have to recalibrate a little. Here are some possibilities for the fall. Fortunately, MOS is vacant, so STP can safely support NWY, and NTH can be useful elsewhere. For one turn at least.

In Scandinavia: STP support-hold NWY, NTH-->DEN? Or STP support-hold NWY, NTH-->BEL, with support from ENG (and hopefully the German A HOL again)?

In the Atlantic: IRI S ENG, ENG S NTH-->BEL? Or IRI-->MAO, ENG-->PIC (both moves to cut support), and NTH-->BEL? NTH-->BEL still needs German support to succeed, but it doesn't need support from ENG (which could be cut). Or ENG-->MAO supported by IRI, NTH-->ENG?

I'm going to mull these options for a day. I welcome your thoughts.

Trigfea63
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#99 Post by Trigfea63 » Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:07 pm

georgefc3 wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:44 pm
This is about the Austria game...
Trig writes:

I agree with Doug, these are solid moves. I think you've got this one in the bag tbh. You should get Munich and Berlin this year, maybe StP too.
Thanks for the vote of confidence... I would love it if I could get to 18 without stabbing Italy....

This is the current map, after retreats:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

I will skip the naming of moves, just give you the beta map.

https://webdiplomacy.net/beta/?gameID=429820

Comments?
Haha, I also try to win without stabbing my bot ally, when possible. You need 6 more centers to reach 18. If you don't take any of Italy's, you will need MUN, BER, KIE, HOL, BEL, and either DEN, STP, or Paris. Or something like that. It's possible. Not easy, but possible. Germany turned around from facing France and support-held MUN so you probably only get one of MUN and BER this year, not both. I'm not sure you should take STP right now. Maybe better to keep England stronger, as he is fighting your enemies.

Trigfea63
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Karma: 60

Re: Austria vs Bots

#100 Post by Trigfea63 » Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:24 pm

I will skip the naming of moves, just give you the beta map.
We can't see your proposed moves on the beta map. We only see the current positions of the units.

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