Austria vs Bots

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georgefc3
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#61 Post by georgefc3 » Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:13 pm

Guys, that worked very well. Italy was docile, as expected. I left both Greece and Trieste open. I won Sevastopol, Warsaw and Con. I should be able to pick up Ankara and hopefully Moscow next year.

Importantly Italy has moved towards Iberia and should be able to make it to the Atlantic.

For your convenience, here is the map:

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=429820

You asked about builds. I tentatively plan on building two armies and a fleet. I could postpone a build, if that is a good idea.

If I ***did*** build two armies I could move towards Germany and maybe get Munich....

As always, I welcome your thoughts and comments.

georgefc3
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#62 Post by georgefc3 » Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:20 pm

Doug, looking at your "Identify" game as England.

France looks very, very strong. Italy has a failed Lepanto going. He looks to be out soon. Russia/Turkey looks strong in the south. You have an iron grip on St. Pete, no worries there.

Have you considered convoying to Holland from Norway and moving to the Baltic? That looks pretty strong to me.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#63 Post by georgefc3 » Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:29 pm

Trig

I have your game "T-0128" still in Spring of '02. Is that correct?

It looks like Germany wants Sweden for himself. He undoubtedly wants Belgium too.

France built an army in Paris and a fleet in Brest. Not good for you. You could potentially move to Finland and keep your options open in the fall.

You might want to support Germany into Belgium. That is an idea. Better I think is supporting yourself into the channel.

On a side note, when I play France I normally open this way:

F bre - mao
a par - gas
a mar - bur

This sets would bounce Germany in Burgundy if he goes there. The Army in Gascony can cover Brest or take Spain in the fall.

Assuming England makes neutral moves I build a par, f mar. The hope is that England and Germany start fighting. Meanwhile I move to MAO and SPA(SC).

From my "for what it's worth" files.

DougJoe
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#64 Post by DougJoe » Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:10 pm

Trigfea63 wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:58 am
You might also consider going after Germany next. Your units are well-positioned to descend on Germany, and they're pretty far out of position to take on France. Maybe SWE-->Baltic, EDI-->convoy to DEN to start? If you really want to look friendly to France, you could even move LON-->YOR.
I ended up doing:
Nwy->Stp S BAR
Edi->Nwy S Swe (C NTH)
Lon->ENC

Thoughts on the results:
France took Venice (no surprise) and looks poised to completely blast the Italians - he'll probably get two and could even get three centers this year depending on what Italy does with Rome.
Germany took Belgium (which I think is good so France can't get it) and is still harassing Austira... which is good in the sense of "that army isn't near me" but bad in the sense of "Russia took Budapest because of it").
Italy didn't get Smy (not surprised).

Thoughts for the fall:
I was hoping Russia would lose a unit this year, but it looks like that's not going to be the case... unless Bohemia leaves vienna alone? That's OK, the north is stable, I just won't be able to push for Moscow. The tricker decision is what to do about France? I have serious concerns about how powerful France will be, and feel that now I have to do something about it.

I have two options this turn, that I can see:

The first is to attempt an unsupported convoy into Brest from Norway. If that works, I would get two builds, which would be F Lvp and either F or A Lon.

The second would be to move ENC->MAO, NTH->ENC. Since I don't expect TYS to move back to WMS, this would allow me to take Por in the Spring and keep F Mar/F Bre from taking it back in the fall (as ENC would potentially stop Bre-MAO). I would also start pushing the fleet from Sweden back towards NTH, and build F Lvp this Winter.

Trigfea63
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#65 Post by Trigfea63 » Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:41 pm

A quick update on T-0128. I've had little time to devote to the game since my last post. I think neither of you especially liked my suggested moves. I'm now close to deadline, and I'm about to board a flight. I'll take one more look and then I'll have to decide.

George: Yes, the game is still in Spring '02. By the time I get to 1903, yours and Doug's might be finished!

DougJoe
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#66 Post by DougJoe » Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:41 am

Trigfea63 wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:41 pm
A quick update on T-0128. I've had little time to devote to the game since my last post. I think neither of you especially liked my suggested moves. I'm now close to deadline, and I'm about to board a flight. I'll take one more look and then I'll have to decide.

George: Yes, the game is still in Spring '02. By the time I get to 1903, yours and Doug's might be finished!
You do you! Have a safe flight!

georgefc3
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#67 Post by georgefc3 » Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:34 am

Guys

Ok, I completed my builds. Germany built a Fleet in Kiel. That should be good.

My thoughts are this. I should convoy an army from Bulgaria to Ankara, with support from Con. That gives me three mobile fleets to assist Italy with. Other than that try for Moscow. England can support Russia, not sure he wants to do that.

If I want to solo I will need to get either Munich or StP. England has a grip on St.P right now, so that is out. Should I play possum with Germany for now?

Thoughts, comments, concerns? Clarifications about my ideas?

Quick link, for your convenience:

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=429820

georgefc3
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#68 Post by georgefc3 » Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:43 pm

Guys

My tentative moves:

Sevastopol to Moscow (with two supports)
Bulgaria convoys to Ankara (with support)
Rum - Gal
Vie - Boh
Bud - Vie
F Tri - Adr

Germany only has four armies so may have trouble defending his home centers. It looks like Italy will be able to take Marseilles this turn and win Iberia.

Again, thought comments or concerns?

PS... Still learning the interface. Here is a link to the map:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

DougJoe
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#69 Post by DougJoe » Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:43 pm

georgefc3 wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:43 pm
Guys

My tentative moves:

Sevastopol to Moscow (with two supports)
Bulgaria convoys to Ankara (with support)
Rum - Gal
Vie - Boh
Bud - Vie
F Tri - Adr

Germany only has four armies so may have trouble defending his home centers. It looks like Italy will be able to take Marseilles this turn and win Iberia.

Again, thought comments or concerns?

PS... Still learning the interface. Here is a link to the map:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large
My personal preference would be to move Ukr to Mos to keep Sev covered so you don't have to worry about Arm->Sev when Turkey retreats (and then in the fall you can start moving your fleets westward - you don't need fleet BLA anymore.)

It's a good question as to the strategic correctness of going for Germany. You do need a center across the stalemate line, StP is probably out, Mun is an option. I know that there's a school of thought that is "get across the stalemate line ASAP to avoid being blocked" so I can't say that your approach is wrong. That being said, I have a hard time not "seeing" Tri->ADR, Vie->Tyo, Bud->Tri with a fall attack on Venice, and Smyrna the following year - but sometimes with the bots I do get a little "stab happy". If Italy crashes into France, you might even be able to get Mar as your last center if that area is chaotic enough once you've plowed through Italy.

This is one of those time where I would love to be able to "save state" and play the game out one way, then go back to that saved position and play it the other way and see what happens.

That all being said, it looks like this has a really good chance of becoming a solo for you.

DougJoe
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#70 Post by DougJoe » Thu Aug 11, 2022 3:34 pm

DougJoe wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:10 pm

I have two options this turn, that I can see:

The first is to attempt an unsupported convoy into Brest from Norway. If that works, I would get two builds, which would be F Lvp and either F or A Lon.

The second would be to move ENC->MAO, NTH->ENC. Since I don't expect TYS to move back to WMS, this would allow me to take Por in the Spring and keep F Mar/F Bre from taking it back in the fall (as ENC would potentially stop Bre-MAO). I would also start pushing the fleet from Sweden back towards NTH, and build F Lvp this Winter.
Well, I took the second option and guessed right. France covered Brest, which means he'll only build two even though he went up three this turn. Italy probably should have moved Rom->Nap to bounce TYS->Nap, but did not and is pretty much dead... which means that Turkey, who is not fighting Russia, *should* start growing. Germany gets a build from Belgium, hopefully it's an army but it's not the end of the world if it's not. France will undoubtedly build A Par, F Mar. It's good for me that his fleet is so far away - it would be nice if Italy keeps TYS because that makes it take longer for that fleet to get back to help defend France.

What to build? I was previously thinking fleet, but now I'm wondering army London and convoying it somewhere? Portugal maybe? Gascony?

DougJoe
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#71 Post by DougJoe » Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:27 pm

DougJoe wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 3:34 pm

Well, I took the second option and guessed right. France covered Brest, which means he'll only build two even though he went up three this turn. Italy probably should have moved Rom->Nap to bounce TYS->Nap, but did not and is pretty much dead... which means that Turkey, who is not fighting Russia, *should* start growing. Germany gets a build from Belgium, hopefully it's an army but it's not the end of the world if it's not. France will undoubtedly build A Par, F Mar. It's good for me that his fleet is so far away - it would be nice if Italy keeps TYS because that makes it take longer for that fleet to get back to help defend France.

What to build? I was previously thinking fleet, but now I'm wondering army London and convoying it somewhere? Portugal maybe? Gascony?
Ended up building Army London.

At this point, Swe-Den just in case, SKA-NTH. BAR S StP. But now where to convoy? Bre, Gas, Spa, Por, Naf... Gascony is an interesting option, and while I think France is going to do Par S Bre & Mar->Spa, I think I have to take Por now while I can... and it probably sounds crazy, but if Germany moves away from Kiel and I get into NTH and Den, I have the option of convoying Denmark to somewhere in France in the fall...

DougJoe
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#72 Post by DougJoe » Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:42 pm

DougJoe wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:27 pm
Ended up building Army London.

At this point, Swe-Den just in case, SKA-NTH. BAR S StP. But now where to convoy? Bre, Gas, Spa, Por, Naf... Gascony is an interesting option, and while I think France is going to do Par S Bre & Mar->Spa, I think I have to take Por now while I can... and it probably sounds crazy, but if Germany moves away from Kiel and I get into NTH and Den, I have the option of convoying Denmark to somewhere in France in the fall...
Well, Germany has decided he's had enough of attacking France and blocked me out of NTH and Den. That's ok - no problem since I can play the same moves and there's no risk. He didn't, however, attack Burgundy like I was sort of expecting, so France didn't have to retreat to Gas or Mar, which means Spain is vulnerable.
In the east/south, here comes the Turkish attack like I expected. Austria tried to force Bud and didn't defend Gre - I wish Germany would leave him alone - and now R/T are going to pick him apart.

I think I have to take Spain this turn - if France picks up Tunis and keeps all of italy then he stays at 7 (8-2+1=7) and he doesn't build anything. The only question is do I want to put the fleet on the north or south coast? I think I have to go south coast here to put potential pressure on Mar.

So it's
BAR S StP
Swe-Den
SKA-NTH
MAO -> Spa(sc) S Por
ENC -> MAO

That would give me two builds - one build is F Lon that goes to ENC in the spring. Not sure if the other is a fleet in Edi to help retake NTH or another army in Lvp to convoy.

Trigfea63
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#73 Post by Trigfea63 » Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:48 pm

DougJoe wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:43 pm
georgefc3 wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:43 pm
Guys

My tentative moves:

Sevastopol to Moscow (with two supports)
Bulgaria convoys to Ankara (with support)
Rum - Gal
Vie - Boh
Bud - Vie
F Tri - Adr

Germany only has four armies so may have trouble defending his home centers. It looks like Italy will be able to take Marseilles this turn and win Iberia.

Again, thought comments or concerns?

PS... Still learning the interface. Here is a link to the map:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large
My personal preference would be to move Ukr to Mos to keep Sev covered so you don't have to worry about Arm->Sev when Turkey retreats (and then in the fall you can start moving your fleets westward - you don't need fleet BLA anymore.)

It's a good question as to the strategic correctness of going for Germany. You do need a center across the stalemate line, StP is probably out, Mun is an option. I know that there's a school of thought that is "get across the stalemate line ASAP to avoid being blocked" so I can't say that your approach is wrong. That being said, I have a hard time not "seeing" Tri->ADR, Vie->Tyo, Bud->Tri with a fall attack on Venice, and Smyrna the following year - but sometimes with the bots I do get a little "stab happy". If Italy crashes into France, you might even be able to get Mar as your last center if that area is chaotic enough once you've plowed through Italy.

This is one of those time where I would love to be able to "save state" and play the game out one way, then go back to that saved position and play it the other way and see what happens.

That all being said, it looks like this has a really good chance of becoming a solo for you.
George, I think you want to pick your fights here. Don't make enemies of both Italy and Germany while you're still fighting Russia and Turkey. The key question: Do you want to stab Italy now? If so, go all-in on it (Doug's moves, plus CON-->Aegean, BUL-->CON), and forget about Germany for now. This might be the best opportunity you'll have to stab Italy for a while, before he gets his builds from attacking France. Getting across the stalemate line early is an important strategy against human players. Against the bots you can probably get away with waiting until later. They're not very good at defending stalemate lines.

If you decide to go after Germany, go hard and leave Italy alone. (Stay out of Adriatic Sea for sure.)

DougJoe
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#74 Post by DougJoe » Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:01 pm

Trigfea63 wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:48 pm

George, I think you want to pick your fights here. Don't make enemies of both Italy and Germany while you're still fighting Russia and Turkey. The key question: Do you want to stab Italy now? If so, go all-in on it (Doug's moves, plus CON-->Aegean, BUL-->CON), and forget about Germany for now. This might be the best opportunity you'll have to stab Italy for a while, before he gets his builds from attacking France. Getting across the stalemate line early is an important strategy against human players. Against the bots you can probably get away with waiting until later. They're not very good at defending stalemate lines.

If you decide to go after Germany, go hard and leave Italy alone. (Stay out of Adriatic Sea for sure.)
I meant to say something about staying out of ADR as well if George decided to go against Germany. I wasn't trying to suggest that he attack both at once.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#75 Post by Trigfea63 » Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:11 pm

Doug, I'm learning from your game. I've never used this strategy as England. Obviously, it's working. 8-) It would be nice if Russia stopped hammering StP. That fleet Barents could be useful elsewhere.

DougJoe
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#76 Post by DougJoe » Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:47 pm

DougJoe wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:42 pm

Well, Germany has decided he's had enough of attacking France and blocked me out of NTH and Den. That's ok - no problem since I can play the same moves and there's no risk. He didn't, however, attack Burgundy like I was sort of expecting, so France didn't have to retreat to Gas or Mar, which means Spain is vulnerable.
In the east/south, here comes the Turkish attack like I expected. Austria tried to force Bud and didn't defend Gre - I wish Germany would leave him alone - and now R/T are going to pick him apart.

I think I have to take Spain this turn - if France picks up Tunis and keeps all of italy then he stays at 7 (8-2+1=7) and he doesn't build anything. The only question is do I want to put the fleet on the north or south coast? I think I have to go south coast here to put potential pressure on Mar.

So it's
BAR S StP
Swe-Den
SKA-NTH
MAO -> Spa(sc) S Por
ENC -> MAO

That would give me two builds - one build is F Lon that goes to ENC in the spring. Not sure if the other is a fleet in Edi to help retake NTH or another army in Lvp to convoy.
Update, post Autumn 1904:

Well, I took Spain. Austria bounced France out of Tunis, so France is -1 now... but Austria *finally* moved from Vienna to take back Bud and lost Vie to the German in the process, which means Germany gets a build. Turkey took Ser and get two builds (like I said, here it comes!) Russia does *lose* a unit and it would be nice if he removes Livonia.

What to build? Fleet London, then either A Lvp or F Edi. I suspect Germany will build F Berlin with it moving to Baltic the next turn, so I feel I need to build F Edi to balance, where I could move NTH-Den S Swe, Edi-NTH. But then I'm not sure where I punch at next - probably depends on what the other builds are.

DougJoe
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#77 Post by DougJoe » Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:57 pm

Trigfea63 wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:11 pm
Doug, I'm learning from your game. I've never used this strategy as England. Obviously, it's working. 8-) It would be nice if Russia stopped hammering StP. That fleet Barents could be useful elsewhere.
Well, the game has been heavily dependent on Germany's initial moves of Tyo, Hol, and Sil. It would be nice if Russia left StP alone, but that's OK.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - I am by no means an expert. :cd:

Trigfea63
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#78 Post by Trigfea63 » Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:34 pm

An update on my game, T-0128. Here is the current state of affairs:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

I took your advice last turn. I left Germany alone, supported myself into ENG, and basically held in NWG and NWY. I wanted to "wait and see" for one more turn. I think it was the right call. Germany tried to support me into Sweden. (Always check the large map!) I didn't move to Sweden, but still, it's good news. It means Germany is (probably) not my enemy, and it makes my path forward more clear. Here's where I'm headed:

NWY-->STP
NWG-->NWY
NTH Support-hold ENG
ENG Support-move German Army HOL-->BEL

I'm counting on Russia needing MOS to support-hold SEV again, and not covering STP. Let me know if you guys think otherwise, or have other comments.

DougJoe
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#79 Post by DougJoe » Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:37 am

Trigfea63 wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:34 pm
An update on my game, T-0128. Here is the current state of affairs:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

I took your advice last turn. I left Germany alone, supported myself into ENG, and basically held in NWG and NWY. I wanted to "wait and see" for one more turn. I think it was the right call. Germany tried to support me into Sweden. (Always check the large map!) I didn't move to Sweden, but still, it's good news. It means Germany is (probably) not my enemy, and it makes my path forward more clear. Here's where I'm headed:

NWY-->STP
NWG-->NWY
NTH Support-hold ENG
ENG Support-move German Army HOL-->BEL

I'm counting on Russia needing MOS to support-hold SEV again, and not covering STP. Let me know if you guys think otherwise, or have other comments.
Yes, always look at the big map (or the orders page).

I suspect that ENG's support of HOL->Bel will get cut and that France will move MAO S Bre->ENC, Bur->Bel S Pic, Mar->Bur... which you really can't do much about, unfortunately. You have to make sure there's a unit in Nwy in case Germany decides to take Swe (I'd be very surprised if he tried to support you in again) because Swe could retreat to Nwy if it's empty... unfortunately StP is your best chance for a build, which you really do need to keep pace with France. Maybe you'll get lucky and France will be stupid and play Bur S Pic->Bel and Munich will cut the support, but I wouldn't expect that. France could also go MAO->IRI, but I don't think he'll take the risk in leaving MAO open... at least if you stop him from moving out of Bre then he can't build a fleet there.

It's a tough position.

DougJoe
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#80 Post by DougJoe » Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:37 am

DougJoe wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:37 am
Trigfea63 wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:34 pm
An update on my game, T-0128. Here is the current state of affairs:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

I took your advice last turn. I left Germany alone, supported myself into ENG, and basically held in NWG and NWY. I wanted to "wait and see" for one more turn. I think it was the right call. Germany tried to support me into Sweden. (Always check the large map!) I didn't move to Sweden, but still, it's good news. It means Germany is (probably) not my enemy, and it makes my path forward more clear. Here's where I'm headed:

NWY-->STP
NWG-->NWY
NTH Support-hold ENG
ENG Support-move German Army HOL-->BEL

I'm counting on Russia needing MOS to support-hold SEV again, and not covering STP. Let me know if you guys think otherwise, or have other comments.
Yes, always look at the big map (or the orders page).

I suspect that ENG's support of HOL->Bel will get cut and that France will move MAO S Bre->ENC, Bur->Bel S Pic, Mar->Bur... which you really can't do much about, unfortunately. You have to make sure there's a unit in Nwy in case Germany decides to take Swe (I'd be very surprised if he tried to support you in again) because Swe could retreat to Nwy if it's empty... unfortunately StP is your best chance for a build, which you really do need to keep pace with France. Maybe you'll get lucky and France will be stupid and play Bur S Pic->Bel and Munich will cut the support, but I wouldn't expect that. France could also go MAO->IRI or NAO, but I don't think he'll take the risk in leaving MAO open... at least if you stop him from moving out of Bre then he can't build a fleet there.

It's a tough position.

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