Saurons Armies were more Ethnically diverse than Gondors

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brainbomb
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Saurons Armies were more Ethnically diverse than Gondors

#1 Post by brainbomb » Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:52 pm

Sauron had an incredibly diverse army bringing men, orcs, undeads and factions from a variety of regions together. By comparison Gondors armies were all men, no women, and all presumably from Gondor/Numenorian descent only. Sauron would have built a more diverse world with better workplace benefits and greater inclusivity.
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Re: Saurons Armies were more Ethnically diverse than Gondors

#2 Post by Chaqa » Mon Oct 24, 2022 11:42 pm

It's pretty widely accepted on certain corners of the internet that Tolkien's works were thinly veiled white saviorism.

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Re: Saurons Armies were more Ethnically diverse than Gondors

#3 Post by DarthPorg36 » Tue Oct 25, 2022 12:10 am

Yeah that is the one downside to an otherwise perfect masterpiece of literature. I don't support racism and I'm disappointed that Tolkien seems to have to a degree.

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Re: Saurons Armies were more Ethnically diverse than Gondors

#4 Post by Doom427 » Tue Oct 25, 2022 1:01 am

Fake fan spotted.

The books make clear the armies that defended Minas Tirith are actually a variety of man from across all of Middle Earth who gathered together. Three pages are dedicated to the parade coming to the city to help protect them.

Though Mordor does have them beat in Gender- Shelob is allowed to openly serve (in a non-military role) while eoweyn had to hide her gender while serving.
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Re: Saurons Armies were more Ethnically diverse than Gondors

#5 Post by Octavious » Tue Oct 25, 2022 8:04 am

I eat cookies to improve my snacking experience

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Re: Saurons Armies were more Ethnically diverse than Gondors

#6 Post by PRINCE WILLIAM » Tue Oct 25, 2022 3:37 pm

Before you start looking down on Tolkien, do remember that he was born and raised in a very different society from our own. The place of women in society or the equality of races were things that had just started to be of concern and debate.

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Re: Saurons Armies were more Ethnically diverse than Gondors

#7 Post by Kakarroto » Thu Nov 10, 2022 3:33 pm

Tolkien wrote this about the war of the last alliance (the war that is shown briefly at the beginning in the LotR movies when Elendil [plus Isildur] and Gilgalad face Sauron):
"All living things were divided in that day, and some of every kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save the elves only. They alone were undivided ..."
With this we have proof that the numenorian faction was inclusive for other races, if they worked for the same goal, even if they were orcs, goblins or trolls. There might be an argument for unliving and undeads here, but a) they are twisted abominations in the face of Eru and b) they still retain their race ethnicity, just change their status from living to dead.

In the later years, since the realm of Gondor was much smaller, you can't fault them for not having the same resources as when Numenor was on their height and thereby not having enough reach to have access to the other races. Gondor and their allies would've taken help from every side, if only they would fight for the same goal. The best examples here would be the ghost army of Aragorn or the conscription of a Hobbit.

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Re: Saurons Armies were more Ethnically diverse than Gondors

#8 Post by Jamiet99uk » Thu Nov 10, 2022 6:40 pm

Chaqa wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 11:42 pm
It's pretty widely accepted on certain corners of the internet that Tolkien's works were thinly veiled white saviorism.
This is false because everyone knows the Internet is round.
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Re: Saurons Armies were more Ethnically diverse than Gondors

#9 Post by Randomizer » Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:21 pm

Tolkien had some prominent heroines, Eowyn and Galadriel, but almost all women are off I support positions and not fighters.

There is some racism where the dark skin humans are Sauron supporters.

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Re: Saurons Armies were more Ethnically diverse than Gondors

#10 Post by flash2015 » Sat Nov 12, 2022 4:36 am

Randomizer wrote:
Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:21 pm
Tolkien had some prominent heroines, Eowyn and Galadriel, but almost all women are off I support positions and not fighters.

There is some racism where the dark skin humans are Sauron supporters.
How many female warriors do you think there were in middle-ages combat? We shouldn't have to make every novel politically correct.

In fantasy the "bad guys" are most likely going to look different, most likely ugly too (same with horror). Doesn't mean this was done with racist intent.

Can you show me something outside of the book that shows that Tolkien was really a racist?

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Re: Saurons Armies were more Ethnically diverse than Gondors

#11 Post by JECE » Sat Nov 12, 2022 3:07 pm

flash2015 wrote:
Sat Nov 12, 2022 4:36 am
Randomizer wrote:
Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:21 pm
There is some racism where the dark skin humans are Sauron supporters.
In fantasy the "bad guys" are most likely going to look different, most likely ugly too (same with horror). Doesn't mean this was done with racist intent.
Oh my goodness. Go back to your cave please.
See my full Profile:
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Re: Saurons Armies were more Ethnically diverse than Gondors

#12 Post by flash2015 » Sat Nov 12, 2022 3:35 pm

JECE wrote:
Sat Nov 12, 2022 3:07 pm
flash2015 wrote:
Sat Nov 12, 2022 4:36 am
Randomizer wrote:
Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:21 pm
There is some racism where the dark skin humans are Sauron supporters.
In fantasy the "bad guys" are most likely going to look different, most likely ugly too (same with horror). Doesn't mean this was done with racist intent.
Oh my goodness. Go back to your cave please.
Huh? I am just telling you reality. Not everything has to be viewed through a racial lens.

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Re: Saurons Armies were more Ethnically diverse than Gondors

#13 Post by flash2015 » Sat Nov 12, 2022 3:50 pm

A lot of what Tolkien created wasn't original. He reused ideas from older European mythology (dwarves and elves I believe came from German mythology).

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Re: Saurons Armies were more Ethnically diverse than Gondors

#14 Post by flash2015 » Sat Nov 12, 2022 4:40 pm

People have also argued there is a lot of Christian values in Tolkien:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian ... ddle-earth

Tolkien was a devout Catholic.

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Re: Saurons Armies were more Ethnically diverse than Gondors

#15 Post by Fluminator » Mon Nov 14, 2022 10:26 pm

In the Silmarillion, Tolkien definitely viewed some races or groups of elves/humans as better than others. It wasn't necessarily a parallel to real world racism, but his worldview framework was very much "some groups are intrinsically better than others"

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