Proof God is real

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Fluminator
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Re: Proof God is real

#141 Post by Fluminator » Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:31 am

aardvarkarmy wrote:
Tue Nov 15, 2022 11:57 pm
Fluminator wrote:
Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:56 pm
aardvarkarmy wrote:
Tue Nov 15, 2022 3:35 pm
A more vivid way of showing the utter pointlessness of this argument is:

If we accept the premise that "everything that can possibly happen has happened" then I posit the following must have happened:

There was a god, who was foolish and created artificial intelligence which soon surpassed god's own capabilities, and which 3-D printed a newer, more powerful god, which then murdered the first god before malfunctioning and destroying the AI, then committed suicide, leaving the universe as we now find it, with no god.

If you are truly committed to the notion that "everything that can possibly happen has happened" then you must admit with absolute certainty that this explanation of the universe is true
Fair enough haha. That's why I don't believe in the infinite spacetime theory in the first place because after an infinite amount of time it would have been destroyed by now.

I believe the second premise, not the first, but the first was to get ahead of the atheists saying I can't assume spacetime had a beginning.

So, here is the crux of the issue -

OF COURSE "it is possible that god exists."

An atheist who grounds their views in evidence-based reason will always acknowledge the possibility of being wrong. Show me proof and I'll sign on.

Because an atheist who grounds their views in evidence-based reason will NEVER assert something as an absolute immovable truth without a damn good foundation of verifiable evidence.

Believers, on the other hand, often attempt to pigeon-hole their views into the vocabulary of evidence-based reason, but it is a definitionally impossible task: "faith" is - by definition - accepting a position without sufficient evidence.

A real believe can NEVER acknowledge that "it is possible that god does not exist", much less acknowledge that the "god of the gaps" in our understanding is shrinking to minuscule proportions.

Because the day a believer accepts that a god is not necessary for understanding anything about our world or about ourselves, that is the day "faith" dies
I'm glad you admit God is possible. A large chunk of people in this thread claim "God is impossible" which is still wild to me.

The definition of faith is more "trust or confidence in someone or something.". There are many times when you can have a reasonable faith. It doesn't have to be blind faith.

I suspect you've never talked to any sort of believer if you think they can never acknowledge or deal with doubt.
Agreed God of the Gaps is bad.

Jamiet99uk
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Re: Proof God is real

#142 Post by Jamiet99uk » Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:07 am

Fluminator wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:36 am
Why are you all always so desperate to link God with hell lol. Are you afraid to face the idea of God on its own so you bring in hell to make it easier to argue against?
It seems a big part of the whole Christian thing.

I know you're not a Christian but as an atheist we regularly have to put up with Christians warning us we'll go to hell.

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Re: Proof God is real

#143 Post by Octavious » Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:11 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:07 am
Fluminator wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:36 am
Why are you all always so desperate to link God with hell lol. Are you afraid to face the idea of God on its own so you bring in hell to make it easier to argue against?
It seems a big part of the whole Christian thing.

I know you're not a Christian but as an atheist we regularly have to put up with Christians warning us we'll go to hell.
Regularly? You're going to the wrong sort of parties, mate. I don't think I've ever been warned I could go to hell, other than in jest, in my life 😛
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Re: Proof God is real

#144 Post by Octavious » Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:20 am

aardvarkarmy wrote:
Tue Nov 15, 2022 11:57 pm
Because an atheist who grounds their views in evidence-based reason will NEVER assert something as an absolute immovable truth without a damn good foundation of verifiable evidence.
The delusion is strong in this one :razz:

I'm afraid life doesn't work like that. Looking at the evidence is a good rule of thumb for day to day stuff, don't get me wrong (although very few people manage to apply it for more than a handful of things), but at the end of the day every truth we hold dear is built on a foundation of unverifiable assumptions. We just learn to avoid thinking about them.
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JECE
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Re: Proof God is real

#145 Post by JECE » Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:24 pm

Octavious wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:11 am
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:07 am
Fluminator wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:36 am
Why are you all always so desperate to link God with hell lol. Are you afraid to face the idea of God on its own so you bring in hell to make it easier to argue against?
It seems a big part of the whole Christian thing.

I know you're not a Christian but as an atheist we regularly have to put up with Christians warning us we'll go to hell.
Regularly? You're going to the wrong sort of parties, mate. I don't think I've ever been warned I could go to hell, other than in jest, in my life 😛
I brought up the Christian hell because the arguments that Fluminator is using are the same ones that Christians use. And honstly because I don't think that there is anything further for us to debate. But absolutely, you must be extremely good at tuning out the world around you if you don't hear that on a fairly regular basis. It just happened to me this weekend while walking down the street in super-liberal Washington, DC.
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Fluminator
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Re: Proof God is real

#146 Post by Fluminator » Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:31 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:07 am
Fluminator wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:36 am
Why are you all always so desperate to link God with hell lol. Are you afraid to face the idea of God on its own so you bring in hell to make it easier to argue against?
It seems a big part of the whole Christian thing.

I know you're not a Christian but as an atheist we regularly have to put up with Christians warning us we'll go to hell.
To be fair to the Christians telling you that, if they actually believe you're going to be burning in hell for eternity, it makes sense they're trying to warn you. It would be monstrous of them not to if they genuinely believed that.

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Re: Proof God is real

#147 Post by Octavious » Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:12 pm

JECE wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:24 pm
Octavious wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:11 am
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:07 am


It seems a big part of the whole Christian thing.

I know you're not a Christian but as an atheist we regularly have to put up with Christians warning us we'll go to hell.
Regularly? You're going to the wrong sort of parties, mate. I don't think I've ever been warned I could go to hell, other than in jest, in my life 😛
I brought up the Christian hell because the arguments that Fluminator is using are the same ones that Christians use. And honstly because I don't think that there is anything further for us to debate. But absolutely, you must be extremely good at tuning out the world around you if you don't hear that on a fairly regular basis. It just happened to me this weekend while walking down the street in super-liberal Washington, DC.
Yeah, but there are lots of crazy Yanks. I was amazed when visiting New York at the sheer number of people riding the subway who seemed to be in desperate need of a dedicated institution.

Over in the UK I couldn't even name a person I know who I could confidently say believes in hell, let alone is inclined to talk about it. I dare if you actively sought out an old school missionary and was prepared to travel you'd be able to find them, but it'd take a bit of effort
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Re: Proof God is real

#148 Post by Polyester » Thu Nov 17, 2022 5:30 pm

Believing that the Lord can be proven is a heresy.

Jamiet99uk
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Re: Proof God is real

#149 Post by Jamiet99uk » Thu Nov 17, 2022 5:38 pm

Fluminator wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:31 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:07 am
Fluminator wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:36 am
Why are you all always so desperate to link God with hell lol. Are you afraid to face the idea of God on its own so you bring in hell to make it easier to argue against?
It seems a big part of the whole Christian thing.

I know you're not a Christian but as an atheist we regularly have to put up with Christians warning us we'll go to hell.
To be fair to the Christians telling you that, if they actually believe you're going to be burning in hell for eternity, it makes sense they're trying to warn you. It would be monstrous of them not to if they genuinely believed that.
Sure, you just seemed very puzzled as to why hell was being mentioned, so I provided this context.

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Re: Proof God is real

#150 Post by Jamiet99uk » Thu Nov 17, 2022 5:39 pm

Octavious wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:11 am
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:07 am
Fluminator wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:36 am
Why are you all always so desperate to link God with hell lol. Are you afraid to face the idea of God on its own so you bring in hell to make it easier to argue against?
It seems a big part of the whole Christian thing.

I know you're not a Christian but as an atheist we regularly have to put up with Christians warning us we'll go to hell.
Regularly? You're going to the wrong sort of parties, mate. I don't think I've ever been warned I could go to hell, other than in jest, in my life 😛
To be fair, it's mostly Americans on the internet, rather than people I meet at parties.

Fluminator
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Re: Proof God is real

#151 Post by Fluminator » Fri Nov 18, 2022 4:48 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 5:38 pm
Fluminator wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:31 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:07 am


It seems a big part of the whole Christian thing.

I know you're not a Christian but as an atheist we regularly have to put up with Christians warning us we'll go to hell.
To be fair to the Christians telling you that, if they actually believe you're going to be burning in hell for eternity, it makes sense they're trying to warn you. It would be monstrous of them not to if they genuinely believed that.
Sure, you just seemed very puzzled as to why hell was being mentioned, so I provided this context.
JECE wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:24 pm
Octavious wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:11 am
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:07 am


It seems a big part of the whole Christian thing.

I know you're not a Christian but as an atheist we regularly have to put up with Christians warning us we'll go to hell.
Regularly? You're going to the wrong sort of parties, mate. I don't think I've ever been warned I could go to hell, other than in jest, in my life 😛
I brought up the Christian hell because the arguments that Fluminator is using are the same ones that Christians use. And honstly because I don't think that there is anything further for us to debate. But absolutely, you must be extremely good at tuning out the world around you if you don't hear that on a fairly regular basis. It just happened to me this weekend while walking down the street in super-liberal Washington, DC.
Whenever atheists start talking about atheism, I should always respond by talking about how bad the USSR or Great Leap Forward are. (Both atheist movements)
Maybe you'd then understand just how unimpressive that style of dialogue is lol.

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Re: Proof God is real

#152 Post by JECE » Fri Nov 18, 2022 4:56 pm

Because your style of dialog has been so impressive? :lol:

You already admitted that your opening post was bait that you didn't really believe.
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Re: Proof God is real

#153 Post by Fluminator » Fri Nov 18, 2022 5:49 pm

It got the ball rolling so it works :P

I guess I just expected more from you after reading your input in that other thread about Disney.
Literally all you've done is proclaim God is impossible and meaningless and refuse to expand on anything beyond that or even back up those claims a sliver. You've contributed literally nothing so far. At least Jamiet is arguing for... something at all...

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Re: Proof God is real

#154 Post by Jamiet99uk » Fri Nov 18, 2022 8:28 pm

Fluminator wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 5:49 pm
It got the ball rolling so it works :P

I guess I just expected more from you after reading your input in that other thread about Disney.
Literally all you've done is proclaim God is impossible and meaningless and refuse to expand on anything beyond that or even back up those claims a sliver. You've contributed literally nothing so far. At least Jamiet is arguing for... something at all...
I am arguing that All of these does not ogay

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Re: Proof God is real

#155 Post by JECE » Fri Nov 18, 2022 9:18 pm

Fluminator wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 5:49 pm
You've contributed literally nothing so far. At least Jamiet is arguing for... something at all...
This is also a contradiction. ;-)
Fluminator wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 10:59 pm
I appreciate this answer. I asked Jamiet because I'd like to know some of his epistemology so I can maybe figure out the best way to engage with him. He's never read or responded to any of my explanations or longer posts on this in the past (this convo has happened multiple times) so my current approach clearly isn't working lol.
As for this . . .
Fluminator wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 5:49 pm
I guess I just expected more from you after reading your input in that other thread about Disney.
I checked out of that thread after this monstrosity:
flash2015 wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 9:01 pm
JECE wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:27 pm
flash2015 wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 4:38 pm
Shakespeare has been interpreted thousands upon thousands of times. Interpretations have been done in many languages too (e.g. Ram-Leela is Romeo And Juliet in Hindi, Haider is Hamlet in Hindi).
[Y]ou now seem to be OK with diversity for diversity's sake, at least when it comes to Shakespeare productions from the past two centuries. That's enough, I guess. At least you have a somewhat open mind about diversity for diversity's sake being a good thing.
The way you are wording it here by saying this is a case of "diversity for diversity's sake" suggests that Ira Aldridge didn't get his roles by merit but only because he was black to drive an agenda. If that isn't what you meant then it wasn't "diversity for diversity's sake".
I lost a little bit of my faith in humanity with that exchange. I don't expect much from this forum!
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Re: Proof God is real

#156 Post by Jamiet99uk » Fri Nov 18, 2022 9:31 pm

I'm not sure what JEJE's position is.

To be clear, my position remains that it has not been demonstrated to be clear to me that God's existence is possible. This has not been shown to be possible.

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