Proof God is real

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Doom427
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Re: Proof God is real

#101 Post by Doom427 » Thu Nov 03, 2022 1:29 pm

Octavious wrote:
Thu Nov 03, 2022 7:50 am

That you have failed to understand the idea doesn't make it silly. There is one individual soul over which God cares deeply that lives many lives. It is a simple illustration that the universe can exist in a system that is fundamentally fair to all human souls. And if one such possible system exists there are almost certainly others that you may find more pleasing.
This whole silly tangent started with you saying "I don't believe in this, but...".

Why are you arguing from a position you don't believe in? If you don't think we actually are constantly rebirthed as the same soul while under a unitary god, why are you arguing in favor of it?!?

Just argue for what you really feel is how the world works, or establish some better point for this stupid hypothetical. And I would like to say the point you claim for it is very stupid. You've established "fairness" as just a random lottery while doing nothing at all to address the actual criticism of suffering, and then claim you figured out the solution to the problem with god being omni-belevont.

God is good and fair because hey, maybe in some other life, YOUR foot could be the neck of the peon instead of being a peon! In what meaningful way would I be me if my "soul" was in the body of someone who is nothing like me, has no memories of me, and is a massive asshole?!?

Well, maybe they can throw some bitchy one-liners out there. Hopefully that aspect of Doom stays eternal.
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Re: Proof God is real

#102 Post by Fluminator » Thu Nov 03, 2022 1:58 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Wed Nov 02, 2022 12:57 pm
Fluminator wrote:
Wed Nov 02, 2022 5:24 am
I feel like I've specified what I believe the nature of God is many times.
Sigh.

I'm sorry but I don't think you have. Or, you have repeatedly specified something utterly meaningless and unintelligible to me.
Lol ok

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Re: Proof God is real

#103 Post by Fluminator » Thu Nov 03, 2022 2:17 pm

To summarize my discussion with Jamiet

- Makes statements such as "it is impossible God exists" without giving any reasons why he believes that.

- Refusal to give anything that would hypothetically change his mind even when directly asked. It's extremely dangerous to have a view on something that nothing would ever hypothetically change your mind on.

- Only interested in attacking a single point of view and ignores almost every response engaging with that in good faith by just restating the same arguments over and over again. This would be more effective if you actually engaged with the responses to your posts.

- Repeating a strawman until 10+ attempts until he finally admits and apologizes it was a strawman and instantly moves on to continuous biting remarks that essentially believing a non-Christian God is weird. It's a very western-centric view tbh. There are many interpretations of God outside of yours that you try to put on everyone.

- Any talk of of a higher power is instantly discounted as being meaningless or unintelligible without a fraction of a second of trying to understand it. If you're going to do that, it's pretty poor form to give sarcastic quips at people who are trying to explain it to you. Just because you personally don't understand how a higher power could feasibly exist, it doesn't mean it's impossible. The arrogance of thinking this is pretty impressive.

- Every post riddled in bitter sarcastic remarks even though he makes it clear he is barely trying to read anything. It gives the game away that he's really not interested in talking about this. He just wants to blow off some steam.

I've engaged with many atheists online before but dang, I'm actually impressed by how Jamiet is the most obtuse one I've ever talked to. Congratulations, you set the new bar.

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Re: Proof God is real

#104 Post by Octavious » Thu Nov 03, 2022 5:06 pm

Doom427 wrote:
Thu Nov 03, 2022 1:29 pm
Octavious wrote:
Thu Nov 03, 2022 7:50 am

That you have failed to understand the idea doesn't make it silly. There is one individual soul over which God cares deeply that lives many lives. It is a simple illustration that the universe can exist in a system that is fundamentally fair to all human souls. And if one such possible system exists there are almost certainly others that you may find more pleasing.
This whole silly tangent started with you saying "I don't believe in this, but...".

Why are you arguing from a position you don't believe in? If you don't think we actually are constantly rebirthed as the same soul while under a unitary god, why are you arguing in favor of it?!?

Just argue for what you really feel is how the world works, or establish some better point for this stupid hypothetical. And I would like to say the point you claim for it is very stupid. You've established "fairness" as just a random lottery while doing nothing at all to address the actual criticism of suffering, and then claim you figured out the solution to the problem with god being omni-belevont.

God is good and fair because hey, maybe in some other life, YOUR foot could be the neck of the peon instead of being a peon! In what meaningful way would I be me if my "soul" was in the body of someone who is nothing like me, has no memories of me, and is a massive asshole?!?

Well, maybe they can throw some bitchy one-liners out there. Hopefully that aspect of Doom stays eternal.
I wasn't arguing for a position I don't believe in. I wasn't at any point trying to convince anyone that that possible interpretation of reality was correct. Nobody (and I say this with some confidence as an astrophysicist and engineer) knows how reality functions. We have some quite good descriptions of some elements of it within certain strict limits, but in terms of the whole general mish mash there's nothing close to a good understanding.

What Jamie is doing is focusing on a very strict personal narrative of how the universe works, and declaring that based on this narrative that if God exists He is cruel and deeply unfair.

What I am trying to illustrate is that there's no reason whatsoever to assume that Jamie's narrative of how the universe works is correct, and that it is entirely possible and with very little effort to imagine an alternative narrative, which fits all our observations equally well, in which there is no unfairness whatsoever. Therefore Jamie's argument for the unfairness of God can be reduced to simply saying "I assume God is unfair therefore He is unfair". It is based purely on assumptions. It is no different to a religious man starting from an assumption that God is good and building a narrative from that position.
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Re: Proof God is real

#105 Post by JECE » Thu Nov 03, 2022 5:12 pm

Octavious wrote:
Thu Nov 03, 2022 7:50 am
JECE wrote:
Thu Nov 03, 2022 2:18 am
Octavious wrote:
Wed Nov 02, 2022 10:50 pm


No, she didn't. It doesn’t resemble anything I have said. Frankly I think trolling using the story of the ill health of a loved one is in pretty poor taste
A gluten intolerance has nothing to do with ill health. If you don't want to engage, that's fine. But my point was relevant to your silly multiverse idea. Presumably in such a system there is an end to the multiverse when your soul reaches heaven, right? That may be all you care about, but if I were a multidimensional observer I would care about the wellbeing of each individual life in each dimension, as would a kind creator god.
That you have failed to understand the idea doesn't make it silly. There is one individual soul over which God cares deeply that lives many lives. It is a simple illustration that the universe can exist in a system that is fundamentally fair to all human souls. And if one such possible system exists there are almost certainly others that you may find more pleasing.

As for engaging, as you just argue against literally everything, including something as basic as saying someone having a major reaction to eating gluten is a health issue, it does seem to be something of a waste of time.
You're the one who's refusing to engage, here, or failing to understand my point. Obviously I was also talking about one person (one soul, if you like). It doesn't matter to me if on the balance the various consciousnesses had an OK time. Each state of consciousness should be comforted and cared for independently of others. You clearly don't see why that's important, so I drew on a real-world example to help you see how messed up it is to not care about each state of consciousness.

For the record, I do not believe that there are other universes. I don't know why you think that "there are almost certainly others".
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Re: Proof God is real

#106 Post by JECE » Thu Nov 03, 2022 5:25 pm

Fluminator wrote:
Thu Nov 03, 2022 2:17 pm
It's extremely dangerous to have a view on something that nothing would ever hypothetically change your mind on.
That's called faith. It's the very problem that many atheists, including me, are most concerned about. I do get that many religious people try to characterize atheism as a religion and claim that the lack of belief in the nonexistent is an article of faith for atheists, but the analogy only makes sense to religious people. You're never going to be able to convert a true atheist anyway, but you're not even going to have a real conversation when you insist that your interlocuter is believing something out of faith when it's simply not the case.
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Re: Proof God is real

#107 Post by Doom427 » Thu Nov 03, 2022 5:48 pm

Octavious wrote:
Thu Nov 03, 2022 5:06 pm

Therefore Jamie's argument for the unfairness of God can be reduced to simply saying "I assume God is unfair therefore He is unfair". It is based purely on assumptions. It is no different to a religious man starting from an assumption that God is good and building a narrative from that position.
Ok, but your response is "god is fair because what if sometimes you got to be Elon Musk and have your every stupid whim amused, and other times you were the abused child who commits suicide at age 12"

You clearly are starting from the assumption that either A: Pain and Suffering doesn't matter, actually or B: God is good, and I have to explain that there's an explanation for why some people live shitty terrible lives and others live in luxury.

Your argument makes several more assumptions then Jamie's does. So many that it is truly staggering. (To start- the "soul" does not exist outside the body. Pretty basic issue there).

And meanwhile Jamie... "assumes god is unfair..."? No Jamie ARGUES god doesn't fucking exist. Jamie in this thread says with all the pain and cruelty in the world, God would be cruel if God did exist. And Jamie I guess in a previous thread said "God is Unfair". Which is not an assumption- it's a statement. Maybe even an argument. You don't believe that God is unfair, but that's... your assumption. You are arguing from that belief, not from anything that reflects material experiences of the world.
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Re: Proof God is real

#108 Post by Octavious » Thu Nov 03, 2022 5:53 pm

JECE wrote:
Thu Nov 03, 2022 5:12 pm
For the record, I do not believe that there are other universes. I don't know why you think that "there are almost certainly others".
Once again you are claiming something I simply did not say. There's no point in discussing anything with you if you can't be bothered to even attempt to understand what I'm saying.
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Re: Proof God is real

#109 Post by Fluminator » Thu Nov 03, 2022 5:54 pm

JECE wrote:
Thu Nov 03, 2022 5:25 pm
Fluminator wrote:
Thu Nov 03, 2022 2:17 pm
It's extremely dangerous to have a view on something that nothing would ever hypothetically change your mind on.
That's called faith. It's the very problem that many atheists, including me, are most concerned about. I do get that many religious people try to characterize atheism as a religion and claim that the lack of belief in the nonexistent is an article of faith for atheists, but the analogy only makes sense to religious people. You're never going to be able to convert a true atheist anyway, but you're not even going to have a real conversation when you insist that your interlocuter is believing something out of faith when it's simply not the case.
I am not even close to making the argument that y'all have similar faith in atheism. (And there's a massive difference between faith and blind faith anyway.)

I'm just saying if you can't give anything hypothetically that would make you think you're not fully correct in your views, it's reaching a dangerous territory. (Which many religious people are in that category too, there are billions of them so you're bound to get a bunch)

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Re: Proof God is real

#110 Post by Octavious » Thu Nov 03, 2022 6:05 pm

Doom427 wrote:
Thu Nov 03, 2022 5:48 pm
Ok, but your response is "god is fair because what if sometimes you got to be Elon Musk and have your every stupid whim amused, and other times you were the abused child who commits suicide at age 12"
I personally think that Elon Musk has an awful life, but that's beside the point. I am not saying God is fair because of x. I am saying it is entirely possible that God is fair and entirely possible that He isn't. We don't know enough about how the universe works and the nature of our existence within it to make a judgement one way or the other. It is a matter of faith, nothing more, nothing less.
Doom427 wrote:
Thu Nov 03, 2022 5:48 pm
Your argument makes several more assumptions then Jamie's does. So many that it is truly staggering. (To start- the "soul" does not exist outside the body. Pretty basic issue there).
If you're working on the basis that God exists then a soul is a necessary assumption whether you are arguing in favour of Him being fair or unfair. I disagree that my thought experiment universe has any more assumptions than Jamie's
Doom427 wrote:
Thu Nov 03, 2022 5:48 pm
And meanwhile Jamie... "assumes god is unfair..."? No Jamie ARGUES god doesn't fucking exist. Jamie in this thread says with all the pain and cruelty in the world, God would be cruel if God did exist
Jamie believes that God doesn't exist and that if He did He must be cruel and unfair. I have presented an equally workable model of the universe to Jamie's in which there is perfect fairness, in an attempt to demonstrate that observing our universe does not lead to the inevitable conclusion that if God exists He is unfair
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Re: Proof God is real

#111 Post by Fluminator » Thu Nov 03, 2022 6:15 pm

One of the most telling pieces in a debate is the answer to "What would change your mind?"

In the Ken Ham vs. Bill Nye creation debate they were asked that.
Ken Ham responded saying nothing would change his mind. Bill Nye responded with a pretty detailed list of things he'd need to see in the genomes/fossils/etc to change his mind.
It was that moment more than any other that showed Ken Ham was out to lunch compared to Bill Nye.

Another one was a Richard Dawkins vs. a catholic guy debate.
Richard Dawkins said absolutely nothing would change his mind. Not even Jesus coming down in a vision telling him to believe in him would work (because he'd assume he was hallucinating). I appreciated his honesty haha.
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Re: Proof God is real

#112 Post by Jamiet99uk » Thu Nov 03, 2022 7:09 pm

Fluminator wrote:
Thu Nov 03, 2022 2:17 pm
To summarize my discussion with Jamiet

- Refusal to give anything that would hypothetically change his mind even when directly asked. It's extremely dangerous to have a view on something that nothing would ever hypothetically change your mind on.
When in this thread did you directly ask me that?

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Re: Proof God is real

#113 Post by Jamiet99uk » Thu Nov 03, 2022 7:15 pm

But I will answer the question now that I have seen it asked:

If an omnipotent / omniscient God existed, he would know what he needed to do to change my mind, and he would easily be capable of doing it.

To date, either (a) he does not exist, or (b) he has not done it.

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Re: Proof God is real

#114 Post by Fluminator » Thu Nov 03, 2022 7:21 pm

I could have sworn I asked you that, but it turns out I mixed you up with Jece.
Sorry
I guess that sort of undermines a lot of my entire annoyance post about you.

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Re: Proof God is real

#115 Post by Jamiet99uk » Thu Nov 03, 2022 7:21 pm

Fluminator wrote:
Thu Nov 03, 2022 7:21 pm
I could have sworn I asked you that, but it turns out I mixed you up with Jece.
Sorry
I guess that sort of undermines a lot of my entire annoyance post about you.
But I am quite annoying.
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Re: Proof God is real

#116 Post by Octavious » Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:05 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Thu Nov 03, 2022 7:15 pm
But I will answer the question now that I have seen it asked:

If an omnipotent / omniscient God existed, he would know what he needed to do to change my mind, and he would easily be capable of doing it.

To date, either (a) he does not exist, or (b) he has not done it.
Or (c) you're not being completely honest, or (d) He has done it but for some reason you're no longer aware of it

Still, as I'm neither omnipotent nor omniscient (at least, not on weekdays) I would be curious to hear what it would be
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Re: Proof God is real

#117 Post by Jamiet99uk » Thu Nov 03, 2022 10:30 pm

Octavious wrote:
Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:05 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Thu Nov 03, 2022 7:15 pm
But I will answer the question now that I have seen it asked:

If an omnipotent / omniscient God existed, he would know what he needed to do to change my mind, and he would easily be capable of doing it.

To date, either (a) he does not exist, or (b) he has not done it.
Or (c) you're not being completely honest, or (d) He has done it but for some reason you're no longer aware of it

Still, as I'm neither omnipotent nor omniscient (at least, not on weekdays) I would be curious to hear what it would be
Sorry, what?

For (c) are you suggesting that I do believe in God, and I'm just lying by falsely claiming I don't?

For (d) are you suggesting it's possible that I genuinely did change my mind about God, at some point in the past, and started to believe in him, but then at a later point in time, I forgot all of that had happened?

You seem to think I'm crazy, or a liar. I assure you neither is the case.

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Re: Proof God is real

#118 Post by Ioannes Gregorius » Fri Nov 04, 2022 3:54 am

Edward Feser - The Last Superstition

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Re: Proof God is real

#119 Post by Octavious » Fri Nov 04, 2022 9:21 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Thu Nov 03, 2022 10:30 pm
Octavious wrote:
Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:05 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Thu Nov 03, 2022 7:15 pm
But I will answer the question now that I have seen it asked:

If an omnipotent / omniscient God existed, he would know what he needed to do to change my mind, and he would easily be capable of doing it.

To date, either (a) he does not exist, or (b) he has not done it.
Or (c) you're not being completely honest, or (d) He has done it but for some reason you're no longer aware of it

Still, as I'm neither omnipotent nor omniscient (at least, not on weekdays) I would be curious to hear what it would be
Sorry, what?

For (c) are you suggesting that I do believe in God, and I'm just lying by falsely claiming I don't?

For (d) are you suggesting it's possible that I genuinely did change my mind about God, at some point in the past, and started to believe in him, but then at a later point in time, I forgot all of that had happened?

You seem to think I'm crazy, or a liar. I assure you neither is the case.
I'm simply showing that your list of possibilities is not complete. We know that you are a liar as you have lied quite a few times on this forum and you're a Diplomacy player and you're human. I don't think even you would claim that you wouldn't lie if you believed that doing so would bring a significant benefit to someone you care about. If you believed that denying the existence of God would help your fellow man I'm quite sure that you'd do so, unless I have misjudged you.

As for (d), I guess you may well indeed be one cork short of a bottle of pretentious wine, but that wasn't what I was getting at. More the possibility that God did indeed have a chat with you, it became apparent that your life was better lived without the knowledge of God, so you requested that you could continue to live with your skepticism intact. But yes, you may be totally tonto... or just forgetful. I regularly forget my dreams within minutes of waking up.
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Re: Proof God is real

#120 Post by Jamiet99uk » Fri Nov 04, 2022 12:08 pm

Octavious wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 9:21 am
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Thu Nov 03, 2022 10:30 pm
For (c) are you suggesting that I do believe in God, and I'm just lying by falsely claiming I don't?

For (d) are you suggesting it's possible that I genuinely did change my mind about God, at some point in the past, and started to believe in him, but then at a later point in time, I forgot all of that had happened?

You seem to think I'm crazy, or a liar. I assure you neither is the case.
I'm simply showing that your list of possibilities is not complete. We know that you are a liar as you have lied quite a few times on this forum and you're a Diplomacy player and you're human. I don't think even you would claim that you wouldn't lie if you believed that doing so would bring a significant benefit to someone you care about. If you believed that denying the existence of God would help your fellow man I'm quite sure that you'd do so, unless I have misjudged you.
Ok, since you were simply listing possibilities, I accept that it's theoretically possible that I could be a believer in God, and I'm just pretending not to be, because I enjoy the rough-and-tumble of a debate, or whatever other reason.

While I absolutely assure you that I am not lying about my lack of belief in God, I accept that you could accurately posit that I might choose to lie, for the purpose of pedantically establishing a complete list of the possibilities. Point accepted.

You could also imagine the theoretical position, I suppose, that would suggest that I do believe in God and I believe him to be evil. This would be logically consistent since I have previously said that if God (as characterised by Christianity) existed, then by his own standards he must be regarded as evil. So, theoretically, I might believe in the existence of an evil God, but then set about trying to persuade people that he does not exist, so that they will not worship or follow him. Again, that is not what I am doing, but it would at least be logically consistent from a theoretical point of view where I could be lying.
Octavious wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 9:21 am
As for (d), I guess you may well indeed be one cork short of a bottle of pretentious wine, but that wasn't what I was getting at. More the possibility that God did indeed have a chat with you, it became apparent that your life was better lived without the knowledge of God, so you requested that you could continue to live with your skepticism intact. But yes, you may be totally tonto... or just forgetful. I regularly forget my dreams within minutes of waking up.
This is an interesting point to reflect on. It does not change my sceptical viewpoint - because essentially it ought not to if the whole conclusion is that I have determined, after encountering God, to forget all knowledge of him.

How interesting.

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