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Re: What makes your life worth living?
Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2022 11:56 pm
by learnedSloth
Fluminator wrote: ↑Thu Oct 20, 2022 1:31 pm
It reminds me of creationists poking holes at evolution. Completely unconvincing unless they give a better scientific alternative to evolution.
I have recently read about the hydroplate theory on
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebo ... ngTOC.html
JECE wrote: ↑Thu Oct 20, 2022 6:00 pm
It's sort of hard to talk about something that you don't believe exists.
Are you saying that people who speak of those fictional characters the entertainment industry keeps spouting believe that they exist?
Fluminator wrote: ↑Thu Oct 20, 2022 7:33 pm
Although Jamiet is actively basing his proof against God existing on suffering, so for his points to have any convincing power, I need more from him on suffering than "I don't really care why it's bad, I just know it is"
I think people find suffering bad because it succeeds in interrupting their lives.
Re: What makes your life worth living?
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 2:19 am
by JECE
learnedSloth wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 11:56 pm
JECE wrote: ↑Thu Oct 20, 2022 6:00 pm
It's sort of hard to talk about something that you don't believe exists.
Are you saying that people who speak of those fictional characters the entertainment industry keeps spouting believe that they exist?
Ha ha, very funny. Get back to me when one of those people starts talking about how they don't want a Charizard since it may accidentally burn down their house and they don't think that their homeowners insurance would cover the damage. At that point, I wouldn't know how to continue the conversation. Would you?
Re: What makes your life worth living?
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 4:18 am
by learnedSloth
How does one continue the conversation after someone tells that they don't want a pet that could cause damage their insurance wouldn't cover? The existence of the kind seems irrelevant.
Re: What makes your life worth living?
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 6:00 am
by Fluminator
learnedSloth wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 11:56 pm
Fluminator wrote: ↑Thu Oct 20, 2022 1:31 pm
It reminds me of creationists poking holes at evolution. Completely unconvincing unless they give a better scientific alternative to evolution.
I have recently read about the hydroplate theory on
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebo ... ngTOC.html
JECE wrote: ↑Thu Oct 20, 2022 6:00 pm
It's sort of hard to talk about something that you don't believe exists.
Are you saying that people who speak of those fictional characters the entertainment industry keeps spouting believe that they exist?
Fluminator wrote: ↑Thu Oct 20, 2022 7:33 pm
Although Jamiet is actively basing his proof against God existing on suffering, so for his points to have any convincing power, I need more from him on suffering than "I don't really care why it's bad, I just know it is"
I think people find suffering bad because it succeeds in interrupting their lives.
I have actually seen that one before. It's a noble attempt, but it wasn't as convincing to me as the current mainstream scientific theory. I don't think Christians have anything to fear about evolution
Re: What makes your life worth living?
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 6:02 pm
by Jamiet99uk
@Fluminator: If you still want more from me on why suffering is bad, I have been reflecting on how to explain it to you.
I think that suffering is bad because I have experienced it, and I have some evidence to suggest to me that others experience suffering as a bad thing also.
I know that when something happens that causes me to suffer, I do not like it, it upsets me, it makes me sad.
I have seen other people experience various forms of suffering and in pretty much every case it was abundantly clear that they also did not like it, and were sad.
Human beings are social creatures. I am a very social person. I do not want to suffer, and I do not want other human beings to experience suffering.
Therefore, I conclude that suffering is bad.
Does that answer you?
Re: What makes your life worth living?
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 8:19 pm
by JECE
learnedSloth wrote: ↑Sat Oct 22, 2022 4:18 am
How does one continue the conversation after someone tells that they don't want a pet that could cause damage their insurance wouldn't cover? The existence of the kind seems irrelevant.
Oh, I don't know, maybe point out that the referenced real-world pet doesn't actually have a flaming tail, so the risk of fire damage is miniscule?
I think that you understand the point perfectly well, though. If not, then consider that Pokémon aren't pets and delete "and they don't think that their homeowners insurance would cover the damage".
Re: What makes your life worth living?
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 9:10 pm
by Octavious
Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑Sat Oct 22, 2022 6:02 pm
@Fluminator: If you still want more from me on why suffering is bad, I have been reflecting on how to explain it to you.
I think that suffering is bad because I have experienced it, and I have some evidence to suggest to me that others experience suffering as a bad thing also.
I know that when something happens that causes me to suffer, I do not like it, it upsets me, it makes me sad.
I have seen other people experience various forms of suffering and in pretty much every case it was abundantly clear that they also did not like it, and were sad.
Human beings are social creatures. I am a very social person. I do not want to suffer, and I do not want other human beings to experience suffering.
Therefore, I conclude that suffering is bad.
Does that answer you?
Would you prefer to live in a universe in which suffering is impossible?
Re: What makes your life worth living?
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 9:11 pm
by Jamiet99uk
learnedSloth wrote: ↑Sat Oct 22, 2022 4:18 am
How does one continue the conversation after someone tells that they don't want a pet that could cause damage their insurance wouldn't cover? The existence of the kind seems irrelevant.
His point was, people having conversations about characters in movies
know that those characters are not real.
This is therefore totally different from talking about "God" with people who
think he is real. Get it?
Re: What makes your life worth living?
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 9:13 pm
by Jamiet99uk
Octavious wrote: ↑Sat Oct 22, 2022 9:10 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑Sat Oct 22, 2022 6:02 pm
Suffering is bad.
Would you prefer to live in a universe in which suffering is impossible?
Yes.
Re: What makes your life worth living?
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 9:19 pm
by Jamiet99uk
Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑Sat Oct 22, 2022 9:11 pm
learnedSloth wrote: ↑Sat Oct 22, 2022 4:18 am
How does one continue the conversation after someone tells that they don't want a pet that could cause damage their insurance wouldn't cover? The existence of the kind seems irrelevant.
His point was, people having conversations about characters in movies
know that those characters are not real.
This is therefore totally different from talking about "God" with people who
think he is real. Get it?
(Although frankly I'm not sure what the difference is between believing God is real, and believing Harry Potter is real).
Re: What makes your life worth living?
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 9:50 pm
by JECE
Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑Sat Oct 22, 2022 9:13 pm
Octavious wrote: ↑Sat Oct 22, 2022 9:10 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑Sat Oct 22, 2022 6:02 pm
Suffering is bad.
Would you prefer to live in a universe in which suffering is impossible?
Yes.
We are part of a universe where it is impossible to completely eliminate suffering, so on the one hand this question is a bit silly. On the other hand, I absolutely agree that as a society we should strive to eliminate as much suffering as possible. Politically speaking, this is the road to socialism. I'm not a Marxist, mind you. I just know that as a society we can do much better.
Re: What makes your life worth living?
Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2022 4:15 am
by Wusti
Suffering is essential for spiritual growth. It is the spur that kicks us on, to greater levels of insight and wisdom.
The end of suffering would mean an end to innovation - to wish to eliminate it would stagnate society.
Re: What makes your life worth living?
Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2022 7:02 am
by Octavious
My guess is that Jamie doesn't see stagnation as a bad thing if the stagnation is at a level where life is great for all...
Trouble is that suffering is intrinsically linked to everything that makes us human. The human experience for all begins with a period of vulnerability, where severe suffering is prevented solely by the actions of other humans. Remove the possibility of suffering from the universe and you make us all invulnerable at all times. No one learns what it means to need help, nor the value of offering help to others.
Our greatest suffering is also deeply connected to our greatest joy. The loss of a loved one, the end of a passion. I don't see how you can have one without the other, and certainly not at the same intensity. Life is finite and our joys are all too fleeting, and it is this that makes us treasure them all the more.
A universe where suffering is impossible sounds hollow and hellish to me.
Re: What makes your life worth living?
Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2022 10:31 am
by Jamiet99uk
Octavious wrote: ↑Sun Oct 23, 2022 7:02 am
My guess is that Jamie doesn't see stagnation as a bad thing if the stagnation is at a level where life is great for all...
Trouble is that suffering is intrinsically linked to everything that makes us human. The human experience for all begins with a period of vulnerability, where severe suffering is prevented solely by the actions of other humans. Remove the possibility of suffering from the universe and you make us all invulnerable at all times. No one learns what it means to need help, nor the value of offering help to others.
Our greatest suffering is also deeply connected to our greatest joy. The loss of a loved one, the end of a passion. I don't see how you can have one without the other, and certainly not at the same intensity. Life is finite and our joys are all too fleeting, and it is this that makes us treasure them all the more.
A universe where suffering is impossible sounds hollow and hellish to me.
If you believe that suffering is necessary, and that God planned the concept of suffering to give your joys and victories more meaning, then why is suffering so unequal and so unfairly distributed?
Why do thousands of babies have to die of malaria just so that a kiss from your wife feels a bit nicer?
It does not seem right to me.
I can see suffering existing as a consequence of the universe
not being carefully planned by an all-loving super-being.
I cannot see a good, benevolent, just, all-loving super-being designing the forms of suffering that are experienced on the earth. That's just sick and fucked up.
Re: What makes your life worth living?
Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2022 10:41 am
by Jamiet99uk
Wusti wrote: ↑Sun Oct 23, 2022 4:15 am
Suffering is essential for spiritual growth. It is the spur that kicks us on, to greater levels of insight and wisdom.
The end of suffering would mean an end to innovation - to wish to eliminate it would stagnate society.
Good morning, Ayn Rand.
"To wish to eliminate suffering would stagnate society" huh? - Surely many great innovators, especially in the fields of science and medicine, are striving to eliminate various forms of suffering. Should they not do so?
Octavious is right. I would prefer a stable, boring world with vastly reduced suffering, compared to an exciting, "innovative" world in which thousands of innocent people die in agony for no apparent reason on a daily basis.
I cannot understand why you people think pain and agony and distress are such useful and productive things. It's horrible.
Re: What makes your life worth living?
Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2022 4:38 pm
by flash2015
At least to Buddhists, life is suffering (Duḥkha)...though suffering is really self-inflicted by how you react to events. This is the point of meditation - to free yourself from this self-inflicted suffering.
Re: What makes your life worth living?
Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2022 6:20 pm
by JECE
flash2015 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 23, 2022 4:38 pm
At least to Buddhists, life is suffering (Duḥkha)...though suffering is really self-inflicted by how you react to events. This is the point of meditation - to free yourself from this self-inflicted suffering.
They also believe that said suffering is an illusion (māyā).
Re: What makes your life worth living?
Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2022 6:27 pm
by JECE
JECE wrote: ↑Sun Oct 23, 2022 6:20 pm
flash2015 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 23, 2022 4:38 pm
At least to Buddhists, life is suffering (Duḥkha)...though suffering is really self-inflicted by how you react to events. This is the point of meditation - to free yourself from this self-inflicted suffering.
They also believe that said suffering is an illusion (māyā).
That our entire lives are an illusion, not just how we react to events in our lives . . .
Re: What makes your life worth living?
Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2022 9:02 pm
by flash2015
JECE wrote: ↑Sun Oct 23, 2022 6:27 pm
JECE wrote: ↑Sun Oct 23, 2022 6:20 pm
flash2015 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 23, 2022 4:38 pm
At least to Buddhists, life is suffering (Duḥkha)...though suffering is really self-inflicted by how you react to events. This is the point of meditation - to free yourself from this self-inflicted suffering.
They also believe that said suffering is an illusion (māyā).
That our entire lives are an illusion, not just how we react to events in our lives . . .
Do you have a link to this? Duḥkha is the first of the four noble truths. I see a reference to suffering is an illusion for Hinduism but not for Buddhism.
For context, my wife is a Theravada Buddhist and has never heard of this.
Re: What makes your life worth living?
Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2022 10:14 pm
by JECE