What makes your life worth living?

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Jamiet99uk
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Re: What makes your life worth living?

#61 Post by Jamiet99uk » Tue Oct 18, 2022 7:27 am

Fluminator wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 11:33 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 9:39 pm
Fluminator wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:23 pm
Can I ask why death is a bad thing Jamiet?
You'd like to know why the death of a small child from malaria is a "bad thing" ?

This is something you'd like to have explained to you, is that correct?
Yes please.
I suppose fundamentally because it is unjust. In a paradigm where we are created by an apparently* loving and just God, the death of a small child to a painful illness is an injustice. The child has done nothing wrong (contrary to the vile concept thatit was born sinful) and its suffering is an injustice against it.


* despite vast evidence to the contrary

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Re: What makes your life worth living?

#62 Post by Octavious » Tue Oct 18, 2022 9:40 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 9:43 pm
I have had a broken arm, twice actually. I hated having a broken arm. I am willing to assume that I would also hate having a broken leg.

I do not "hate the natural world" but I repeat that I do not hate the natural world because I assume it to have occurred by chance. I repeat that part because it is important to my answer.

You are arguing that the motivation of the possible actor is irrelevant. I dispute that argument, since we got to this point due to my reaction to someone claiming that God is all loving. So they were talking about God's motivation, and claiming to know what it was. You are saying that person was wrong - but it was the source of this part of the discussion, so it is relevant.
My fundamental point is really quite simple. If you consider the natural world to be a great and wonderous thing worth loving, you cannot hate whatever brought it into existence, and considering them evil would be ridiculous. If you consider the natural world to be a vile monstrosity full of cruelty and fear, then you can indeed argue that whatever created it was evil.

Yes, God's motivation is relevant to whether you consider God evil or not. My point on that regard is that as God's motivation is something we can only guess at then basing a debate around it is utterly pointless. If God's motivation is good He's good, if it is evil He's evil. That is as far as that debate can ever go. So, as it has been played out in its entirety in that single line we can happily ignore it. There is nothing else to say on the matter.

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 7:21 am
@Oct: See, as I mentioned, here is a Christian arguing that babies are sinful from birth.
Yeah, which I have always considered to be a painfully idiotic concept. But I saw nothing in JRoz's comment that suggested the babies were being punished by God, more so that a general sinfulness of humanity is a cause of humanity's suffering... Which again is mostly tripe, but several orders of magnitude less so than the idea that the babies who died were evil babies.
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Re: What makes your life worth living?

#63 Post by learnedSloth » Tue Oct 18, 2022 9:45 am

We suffer in this life, not because we deserve it, but because we deserve everlasting punishment. That's where all of us would be heading to,
if suffering didn't stop us to seek God, and if he hadn't sent his Son to reconcile the world unto himself.

The key to human existence was sought earlier in this thread. It is charity, because God created man in his image and likeness. Man was designed to glorify God by being like him in this respect, because God is love. Neglecting this duty is worthy of the eternal death.

Man was also designed to permit God manifest in a way that isn't otherwise possible, in that he became a man to reconcile us to himself.

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Re: What makes your life worth living?

#64 Post by Jamiet99uk » Tue Oct 18, 2022 10:00 am

learnedSloth wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 9:45 am
We suffer in this life, not because we deserve it, but because we deserve everlasting punishment. That's where all of us would be heading to,
if suffering didn't stop us to seek God, and if he hadn't sent his Son to reconcile the world unto himself.

The key to human existence was sought earlier in this thread. It is charity, because God created man in his image and likeness. Man was designed to glorify God by being like him in this respect, because God is love. Neglecting this duty is worthy of the eternal death.

Man was also designed to permit God manifest in a way that isn't otherwise possible, in that he became a man to reconcile us to himself.
Why do I deserve everlasting punishment?

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Re: What makes your life worth living?

#65 Post by JRoz » Tue Oct 18, 2022 10:56 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 7:21 am
JRoz wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 12:50 am
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:44 am


I would highly encourage you to look at the world around you, in which babies and infants die painful deaths in their dozens every day, and ask yourself "why does God will this?"

You will tell me, of course, that these babies and toddlers, who God deems fit to die painful, horrible deaths, are sinners, due to original sin.

I say, you can fuck off.
Your assumption is that God is morally responsible for humanity's suffering, when in fact it is a our sin that causes us to suffer. This is a massive topic but I'll give a short answer. It is clear that God takes no delight in humanity's suffering. There are many verses that affirm this, two being Laminations 3:31-33 and Ezekiel 18:32. One of the reasons why God sent Jesus to die so that there will come a time where all sorrow, pain, and suffering comes to an end for eternity.
Ok so just to be clear, if a 6 month old baby gets a painful disease and dies, this is just and proper, because the baby is sinful and deserves to suffer. This is your view?

@Oct: See, as I mentioned, here is a Christian arguing that babies are sinful from birth.
Your assumption is that all suffering is a result of sin but that's not true. Some suffering is a result of sin but not all, and as we are not all knowing like God we often can't definitively say that any given moment of suffering is a result of sin.


All are sinful and fall short of the glory of God; nobody is born neutral or good. But all who believe are justified freely by the blood of Christ. All deserve judgement and God in His great mercy saves some.

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Re: What makes your life worth living?

#66 Post by PRINCE WILLIAM » Tue Oct 18, 2022 12:28 pm

Theological debates are without end, and I may remind you that here we have people from all over the world who, even when are Christians and have a common ground, are of different dogmas resulting in vastly different opinions and interpretations of the doctrines of theology.
Is there a connection between this debate and the question we are trying to answer? Has anyone claimed that life is worth living as a footstep to eternal life? Yes, we Christians expect to live in the Kingdom come, and there are rules to get to this, but this is not the reason that makes this life worth the trouble. I think no one claimed this to be the case.
I am interested in how people of different nations and cultures are viewing this, philosophical if you like, question theology and the end of days set aside, and I believe this was the intention of Tolstoy asking it.

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Re: What makes your life worth living?

#67 Post by Octavious » Tue Oct 18, 2022 1:15 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 10:00 am
Why do I deserve everlasting punishment?
Do you want the short answer or the essay version? ;)
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Re: What makes your life worth living?

#68 Post by Jamiet99uk » Tue Oct 18, 2022 1:30 pm

Octavious wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 1:15 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 10:00 am
Why do I deserve everlasting punishment?
Do you want the short answer or the essay version? ;)
OOoooooohhhhhh, matron.
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Re: What makes your life worth living?

#69 Post by Jamiet99uk » Tue Oct 18, 2022 1:32 pm

JRoz wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 10:56 am
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 7:21 am
JRoz wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 12:50 am

Your assumption is that God is morally responsible for humanity's suffering, when in fact it is a our sin that causes us to suffer. This is a massive topic but I'll give a short answer. It is clear that God takes no delight in humanity's suffering. There are many verses that affirm this, two being Laminations 3:31-33 and Ezekiel 18:32. One of the reasons why God sent Jesus to die so that there will come a time where all sorrow, pain, and suffering comes to an end for eternity.
Ok so just to be clear, if a 6 month old baby gets a painful disease and dies, this is just and proper, because the baby is sinful and deserves to suffer. This is your view?

@Oct: See, as I mentioned, here is a Christian arguing that babies are sinful from birth.
Your assumption is that all suffering is a result of sin but that's not true. Some suffering is a result of sin but not all, and as we are not all knowing like God we often can't definitively say that any given moment of suffering is a result of sin.

All are sinful and fall short of the glory of God; nobody is born neutral or good. But all who believe are justified freely by the blood of Christ. All deserve judgement and God in His great mercy saves some.
I am not making an assumption about suffering and sin - I am attempting to interpret your words.

You say that "nobody is born neutral or good". For clarity, can we just confirm that, from your Christian perspective, you hold the view that a newborn baby is born evil / bad / sinful?

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Re: What makes your life worth living?

#70 Post by Fluminator » Tue Oct 18, 2022 2:11 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 7:27 am
Fluminator wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 11:33 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 9:39 pm


You'd like to know why the death of a small child from malaria is a "bad thing" ?

This is something you'd like to have explained to you, is that correct?
Yes please.
I suppose fundamentally because it is unjust. In a paradigm where we are created by an apparently* loving and just God, the death of a small child to a painful illness is an injustice. The child has done nothing wrong (contrary to the vile concept thatit was born sinful) and its suffering is an injustice against it.


* despite vast evidence to the contrary
I was kind of hoping you'd answer without resorting to God.

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Re: What makes your life worth living?

#71 Post by Jamiet99uk » Tue Oct 18, 2022 2:32 pm

Fluminator wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 2:11 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 7:27 am
Fluminator wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 11:33 pm

Yes please.
I suppose fundamentally because it is unjust. In a paradigm where we are created by an apparently* loving and just God, the death of a small child to a painful illness is an injustice. The child has done nothing wrong (contrary to the vile concept thatit was born sinful) and its suffering is an injustice against it.

* despite vast evidence to the contrary
I was kind of hoping you'd answer without resorting to God.
Why?

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Re: What makes your life worth living?

#72 Post by learnedSloth » Tue Oct 18, 2022 4:23 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 10:00 am
learnedSloth wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 9:45 am
We suffer in this life, not because we deserve it, but because we deserve everlasting punishment. That's where all of us would be heading to,
if suffering didn't stop us to seek God, and if he hadn't sent his Son to reconcile the world unto himself.

The key to human existence was sought earlier in this thread. It is charity, because God created man in his image and likeness. Man was designed to glorify God by being like him in this respect, because God is love. Neglecting this duty is worthy of the eternal death.

Man was also designed to permit God manifest in a way that isn't otherwise possible, in that he became a man to reconcile us to himself.
Why do I deserve everlasting punishment?
I tried to explain that in the second paragraph, but apparently using another term made it too obscure.

The everlasting punishment is also called the second death, because the dead will arise to be judged. This is described in the 20th chapter of Revelation:

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
PRINCE WILLIAM wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 12:28 pm
Has anyone claimed that life is worth living as a footstep to eternal life?
I do, in my first post.

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Re: What makes your life worth living?

#73 Post by PRINCE WILLIAM » Tue Oct 18, 2022 7:11 pm

Faith gives you strength to overcome many of life's problems, but it is not by its own right a reason to live. You believe, and I believe in God and the future life to be, but this is my shelter when life gives me a rough time. What makes life worth the trouble are the beautiful things in it.
I believe, and I hope, that God will guide me on a problem I have to face, but my life worths to me because if I get out of the problem, I will have these things to enjoy and cherish.

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Re: What makes your life worth living?

#74 Post by Fluminator » Tue Oct 18, 2022 7:13 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 2:32 pm
Fluminator wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 2:11 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 7:27 am


I suppose fundamentally because it is unjust. In a paradigm where we are created by an apparently* loving and just God, the death of a small child to a painful illness is an injustice. The child has done nothing wrong (contrary to the vile concept thatit was born sinful) and its suffering is an injustice against it.

* despite vast evidence to the contrary
I was kind of hoping you'd answer without resorting to God.
Why?
Because I asked for your view. You just deflected and continued attacking a strawman.

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Re: What makes your life worth living?

#75 Post by Fluminator » Tue Oct 18, 2022 7:19 pm

Like why is it bad kids die? What makes you believe that? You can have fun setting up strawman to yell at, but it's all very unimpressive if you don't share your views on what is evil and bad. I agree kids dying is bad, but I have reasons.

What are yours?

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Re: What makes your life worth living?

#76 Post by JECE » Tue Oct 18, 2022 9:32 pm

Because suffering is bad, Fluminator, and loss causes suffering. Why is suffering bad? Well, that's a philosophical question that I don't see the need to answer. I doubt that Jamiet99uk does either. I see my life's mission as to lessen the suffering of those around me. I've felt this way since I was quite young, and I've never been religious or even questioned the existence of gods or anything supernatural. Is trying to help people around me what makes my life worth living? I don't know. Sticking around to simply consume more knowledge can be a fulfilling endeavour in its own right. I try to lessen suffering or otherwise help people, but I do so without any expectation of reward or recompense. On the contrary, I know that doing the right thing can often bring me negative consequences.
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Re: What makes your life worth living?

#77 Post by JECE » Tue Oct 18, 2022 9:42 pm

learnedSloth wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 4:23 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 10:00 am
learnedSloth wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 9:45 am
We suffer in this life, not because we deserve it, but because we deserve everlasting punishment. That's where all of us would be heading to,
if suffering didn't stop us to seek God, and if he hadn't sent his Son to reconcile the world unto himself.

The key to human existence was sought earlier in this thread. It is charity, because God created man in his image and likeness. Man was designed to glorify God by being like him in this respect, because God is love. Neglecting this duty is worthy of the eternal death.

Man was also designed to permit God manifest in a way that isn't otherwise possible, in that he became a man to reconcile us to himself.
Why do I deserve everlasting punishment?
I tried to explain that in the second paragraph, but apparently using another term made it too obscure.

The everlasting punishment is also called the second death, because the dead will arise to be judged. This is described in the 20th chapter of Revelation:

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
PRINCE WILLIAM wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 12:28 pm
Has anyone claimed that life is worth living as a footstep to eternal life?
I do, in my first post.
Read all about it! "Billions to Be Ceaselessly Tortured for Eternity"
https://thebricktestament.com/revelation/

Unfortunately, the links to 20:13-15 appear to be broken and missing from the new version :cry: :
https://thebrickbible.com/revelation/
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Re: What makes your life worth living?

#78 Post by JECE » Tue Oct 18, 2022 10:19 pm

About killing babies, this heartwarming bible story might be relevant:

https://thebrickbible.com/godkillsababy/

https://thebricktestament.com/king_davi ... 07p09.html
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Re: What makes your life worth living?

#79 Post by Fluminator » Tue Oct 18, 2022 10:59 pm

I love the brick testament.
JECE wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 9:32 pm
Because suffering is bad, Fluminator, and loss causes suffering. Why is suffering bad? Well, that's a philosophical question that I don't see the need to answer. I doubt that Jamiet99uk does either. I see my life's mission as to lessen the suffering of those around me. I've felt this way since I was quite young, and I've never been religious or even questioned the existence of gods or anything supernatural. Is trying to help people around me what makes my life worth living? I don't know. Sticking around to simply consume more knowledge can be a fulfilling endeavour in its own right. I try to lessen suffering or otherwise help people, but I do so without any expectation of reward or recompense. On the contrary, I know that doing the right thing can often bring me negative consequences.
I appreciate this answer. I asked Jamiet because I'd like to know some of his epistemology so I can maybe figure out the best way to engage with him. He's never read or responded to any of my explanations or longer posts on this in the past (this convo has happened multiple times) so my current approach clearly isn't working lol.

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Re: What makes your life worth living?

#80 Post by Fluminator » Tue Oct 18, 2022 11:10 pm

For the record, if there was an everlasting hellfire torture chamber waiting for us in the afterlife, I actually do agree there is no way to justify the suffering of this world with an all-loving God.
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