What makes your life worth living?

General discussions that don't fit in other forums can go here.
Forum rules
Feel free to discuss any topics here. Please use the Politics sub-forum for political conversations. While most topics will be allowed please be sure to be respectful and follow our normal site rules at http://www.webdiplomacy.net/rules.php.
Message
Author
JRoz
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:25 am
Karma: 8

Re: What makes your life worth living?

#21 Post by JRoz » Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:32 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Sun Oct 16, 2022 11:03 pm
learnedSloth wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 2:47 pm
I follow Jesus to everlasting life. I recollect that he promised to lead to it in the tenth chapter of John. I believe him, because his doctrine is sound and he rose from the dead three days after brutal execution by professional killers; he appeared to his disciples multiple times before ascending to heaven before them. Their accounts are in the New Testament. They had also found his tomb open and empty; the watch that was supposed to guard it had fled.

Now you would probably ask what makes the everlasting life worth living. It is described in the Book of Revelation. I quote from the 21st chapter:

AND I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Bullshit, nonsense, hogswallop.

The concept of a loving, redeeming God is inconsistent with God's slaughter of babies and toddlers on a regular basis. Either God does not exist or he is evil based on his own capricious demands. Horrible.

Do what you want.
With love in your heart.
If this is your understanding of God I would highly encourage you to read the Bible, as you will discover that this is not the God of the Bible. God is sovereign over all creation and all knowing, but He is not the one who perpetrates the evil you speak of.

The very fact that God sent His only son, Jesus, to die on the cross so that all who believe will have a right relationship with Him shows that God cannot be evil. In fact sending His only son to die as an atoning sacrifice for our sins, even though we did not love Him and rebel against Him, is love itself.

Jamiet99uk
Posts: 22922
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:42 pm
Location: Durham, UK
Karma: 14852
Contact:

Re: What makes your life worth living?

#22 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:44 am

JRoz wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:32 am
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Sun Oct 16, 2022 11:03 pm
learnedSloth wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 2:47 pm
I follow Jesus to everlasting life. I recollect that he promised to lead to it in the tenth chapter of John. I believe him, because his doctrine is sound and he rose from the dead three days after brutal execution by professional killers; he appeared to his disciples multiple times before ascending to heaven before them. Their accounts are in the New Testament. They had also found his tomb open and empty; the watch that was supposed to guard it had fled.

Now you would probably ask what makes the everlasting life worth living. It is described in the Book of Revelation. I quote from the 21st chapter:

AND I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Bullshit, nonsense, hogswallop.

The concept of a loving, redeeming God is inconsistent with God's slaughter of babies and toddlers on a regular basis. Either God does not exist or he is evil based on his own capricious demands. Horrible.

Do what you want.
With love in your heart.
If this is your understanding of God I would highly encourage you to read the Bible, as you will discover that this is not the God of the Bible. God is sovereign over all creation and all knowing, but He is not the one who perpetrates the evil you speak of.

The very fact that God sent His only son, Jesus, to die on the cross so that all who believe will have a right relationship with Him shows that God cannot be evil. In fact sending His only son to die as an atoning sacrifice for our sins, even though we did not love Him and rebel against Him, is love itself.
I would highly encourage you to look at the world around you, in which babies and infants die painful deaths in their dozens every day, and ask yourself "why does God will this?"

You will tell me, of course, that these babies and toddlers, who God deems fit to die painful, horrible deaths, are sinners, due to original sin.

I say, you can fuck off.

Jamiet99uk
Posts: 22922
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:42 pm
Location: Durham, UK
Karma: 14852
Contact:

Re: What makes your life worth living?

#23 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:47 am

JRoz wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:32 am
In fact sending His only son to die as an atoning sacrifice for our sins, even though we did not love Him and rebel against Him, is love itself.
Also, even just figuratively, I'm amused you think that sending your son to his death is the greatest act of love.

What if I had a son, and I arranged for him to be killed, just to prove to you that I was a loving person? Would you praise me? Or would you think me a monster?
1

Fluminator
Posts: 4198
Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:50 pm
Karma: 2897

Re: What makes your life worth living?

#24 Post by Fluminator » Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:48 am

I'm ready for a religious debate if that's what we're having
1

Fluminator
Posts: 4198
Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:50 pm
Karma: 2897

Re: What makes your life worth living?

#25 Post by Fluminator » Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:52 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:47 am
JRoz wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:32 am
In fact sending His only son to die as an atoning sacrifice for our sins, even though we did not love Him and rebel against Him, is love itself.
Also, even just figuratively, I'm amused you think that sending your son to his death is the greatest act of love.

What if I had a son, and I arranged for him to be killed, just to prove to you that I was a loving person? Would you praise me? Or would you think me a monster?
Well, there are different Christian sects which interpret this differently, but the orthodox trinitarian view is more that Jesus was literally God in human form, so it was more God sending Himself to die and to experience the full human life.

Jamiet99uk
Posts: 22922
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:42 pm
Location: Durham, UK
Karma: 14852
Contact:

Re: What makes your life worth living?

#26 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:54 am

Fluminator wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:48 am
I'm ready for a religious debate if that's what we're having
Sure, you tell me how a loving God kills babies. Go ahead.

Fluminator
Posts: 4198
Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:50 pm
Karma: 2897

Re: What makes your life worth living?

#27 Post by Fluminator » Mon Oct 17, 2022 1:04 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:54 am
Fluminator wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:48 am
I'm ready for a religious debate if that's what we're having
Sure, you tell me how a loving God kills babies. Go ahead.
I'm Pro-Life too, so I question God on this a lot.

Octavious
Posts: 3113
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:16 pm
Location: The Five Valleys, Gloucestershire
Karma: 2262
Contact:

Re: What makes your life worth living?

#28 Post by Octavious » Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:52 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:44 am
I would highly encourage you to look at the world around you, in which babies and infants die painful deaths in their dozens every day, and ask yourself "why does God will this?"

You will tell me, of course, that these babies and toddlers, who God deems fit to die painful, horrible deaths, are sinners, due to original sin.

I say, you can fuck off.
Why would anyone tell you that? No logical sense in that. God would just kill off everyone and be done with it if so.

You could argue that God exists in all times and possibilities, and as such knows the entirety of the life's potential and the choices they make and we are punished for that. But that assumes a far more hands on God than we observe. Why kill a baby that would have grown into a new Hitler and not kill the one who grew into actual Hitler? Again, it fails the logic test.

Just look at the natural world in which we live. It is beautiful, magnificent, free, occasionally loving, and often cruel. It is the existence of cruelty and the example of love that inspires humanity to do better and grow, and create notions such as justice. In doing so God gives humanity both freedom and direction.

In terms of the fairness of it, from the human perspective it is deeply unfair. From the perspective of the immortal soul, maybe not. Perhaps those who die young before living forever are considered to have had it easy. Perhaps we all live a thousand lives during which so lives are rich and long and some are tragic and short, and the aim is to live as well you can in each one? Who knows.
I eat cookies to improve my snacking experience

Jamiet99uk
Posts: 22922
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:42 pm
Location: Durham, UK
Karma: 14852
Contact:

Re: What makes your life worth living?

#29 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Oct 17, 2022 10:58 am

Octavious wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:52 am
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:44 am
I would highly encourage you to look at the world around you, in which babies and infants die painful deaths in their dozens every day, and ask yourself "why does God will this?"

You will tell me, of course, that these babies and toddlers, who God deems fit to die painful, horrible deaths, are sinners, due to original sin.
Why would anyone tell you that? No logical sense in that. God would just kill off everyone and be done with it if so.
Well as it happens I have had several Christians tell me that babies are born sinful, sinners from the very second of their birth, due to original sin.

Jamiet99uk
Posts: 22922
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:42 pm
Location: Durham, UK
Karma: 14852
Contact:

Re: What makes your life worth living?

#30 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Oct 17, 2022 11:10 am

Around 1,320 infants die of Malaria every day.

This is God's evil work.

Octavious
Posts: 3113
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:16 pm
Location: The Five Valleys, Gloucestershire
Karma: 2262
Contact:

Re: What makes your life worth living?

#31 Post by Octavious » Mon Oct 17, 2022 11:18 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 10:58 am
Well as it happens I have had several Christians tell me that babies are born sinful, sinners from the very second of their birth, due to original sin.
And they are wrong. Much like atheists spend their lives wrong about a great many things, religious types do too. That doesn't invalidate the spiritual any more than Newton's attempts to turn lead into gold invalidates Principia Mathematica.
I eat cookies to improve my snacking experience

Octavious
Posts: 3113
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:16 pm
Location: The Five Valleys, Gloucestershire
Karma: 2262
Contact:

Re: What makes your life worth living?

#32 Post by Octavious » Mon Oct 17, 2022 11:19 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 11:10 am
Around 1,320 infants die of Malaria every day.

This is God's evil work.
You believe mosquitoes are evil?
I eat cookies to improve my snacking experience

PRINCE WILLIAM
Posts: 791
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:17 am
Karma: 968

Re: What makes your life worth living?

#33 Post by PRINCE WILLIAM » Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:01 pm

Of course, the damn things are evil!
Have one bite you and then scratch this bite to the point of bleeding, trying to ease the itch and tell me if they are not evil!
1

Octavious
Posts: 3113
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:16 pm
Location: The Five Valleys, Gloucestershire
Karma: 2262
Contact:

Re: What makes your life worth living?

#34 Post by Octavious » Mon Oct 17, 2022 2:28 pm

It's just a mosquito being a mosquito, which is no different to calling seaweed evil for being slippery, or a raindrop evil for making you wet.

Of course it could be that Jamie is not concerned about mosquitoes being mosquitoes, and sees the evil in the system that has created the conditions in which mosquitoes do things that can seem evil to us.

Does Jamie consider instead evolution to be evil, then? Or is life itself fundamentally evil in nature? (an atheistic original sin, if you like)
I eat cookies to improve my snacking experience

MajorMitchell
Posts: 1361
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:05 am
Location: Now Performing Comedic Artist Dusty Balzac Bush Philosopher from Flyblown Gully by the Sea
Karma: 707

Re: What makes your life worth living?

#35 Post by MajorMitchell » Mon Oct 17, 2022 3:46 pm

I would suggest that any person who claims their Bible contains a perfect message to us from a God is delusional.
Inconvenient fact: there are a multitude of different Bibles, and and even greater range of human interpretations of what God's message to us is from those various Bibles. Often these a mutually exclusive doctrinal interpretations of God's message to us.
All competing different versions of the Bible cannot be perfect versions of God's message to us.
No one version of the Bible has supremacy, therefore, all are imperfect at the least and some, eg the Bible used by the Church of Latter Day Saints is clearly a most imaginitive and fanciful composition and a most unreliable guide to what is God's message to us.

Evolution by means of natural selection has given homo sapiens the most advanced cognitive brain of any species on this planet, it is what has made us the dominant prefator species on our planet. It would be appreciated if people could use that highly advanced cognitive brain rather than be deluded by religious quackery

Bibles are a human creation and often served a political purpose, eg King James version is big on the Divine Rights of Monarchs to oppress the ordinary citizens.

What does not make my life worth living is repeatedly explaining these self evident realities to stubbornly obtuse dullards who cling to their Bibles.

If God is a most loving God and the Scriptures his prefect message to us then gee whiz, thanks for not giving humanity a "heads up" about water borne diseases and the simple remedies, eg, filter, then boil the water before drinking.
No, instead the Christian Bible and Koran repeat the crude, innacurate Aristotlean scientific concepts, four elements, incorrect structure of our Solar system etc etc.
They plagiarise the human knowledge of the times in which they were written.

This criticism does not refute the possible existence of Gods and Deities, it simply points to the total lack of verifiable evidence of their existence.

Spiritual beliefs are a matter of Faith, not Logic or evidence based knowledge.

Those who profess to believe in a God and then argue that their spiritual beliefs are based on fact, on provable truths are a curious contradiction of needs, is their Faith so weak they need self reassurance by making exagerrated claims about the basis of their Faith?
The Fanatic is a Fanatic because they harbour deeply hidden doubts and Fanaticism is a compensating manifestation of their self denial of those covert, personal doubts. Their need to defend against questioning of their beliefs, their need to refute the criticisms of others of their beliefs.
What the Fanatic professes to believe, a religious or political belief system is largely irrelevant, it is their extremism, their fanaticism.that reveals their iwn doubts and compensating behaviours.

Their pompous, patronising attitude "you don't understand, but I do because I study my version of the Bible and you might if you did the same" is insulting, disrespectful and intellectually weak, an unenviable trifecta
As is the habit of "cherry picking" from science or historical records what suits them and ignoring, refuting what does not suit them.

For example, one of the best historical sources that verifies the existence of Jesus is the biography of the Roman Emperor Claudius, however Claudius also cites the parentage of Jesus, specifically the the person who sired Jesus was a Greek soldier.
I love it when Christians seize upon the bit that suits them, Jesus existed and deny the inconvenient part, his father was a Greek Soldier.
You either accept the totality of the information from Emperor Claudius concerning Jesus or reject it, you don't get to "cherry pick" and retain credibility.
Emperor Claudius was an exceptional scholar with the best access to.information of anyone living at the time.
His biography was hidden for ~1700 years and is a most remarkable and reliable source document for historians.

MajorMitchell
Posts: 1361
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:05 am
Location: Now Performing Comedic Artist Dusty Balzac Bush Philosopher from Flyblown Gully by the Sea
Karma: 707

Re: What makes your life worth living?

#36 Post by MajorMitchell » Mon Oct 17, 2022 3:55 pm

Correction, it is an autobiography, written in code by Emperor Claudius and he hid it before his death, it was undiscoverd for ~1,700 years and is not "censored" or edited, changed by his successors

Jamiet99uk
Posts: 22922
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:42 pm
Location: Durham, UK
Karma: 14852
Contact:

Re: What makes your life worth living?

#37 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Oct 17, 2022 5:32 pm

Octavious wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 11:19 am
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 11:10 am
Around 1,320 infants die of Malaria every day.

This is God's evil work.
You believe mosquitoes are evil?
The Bible contains several instances of God sending swarms of flying insects to kill people and cause suffering.

Doesn't sound very loving, does it?

Octavious
Posts: 3113
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:16 pm
Location: The Five Valleys, Gloucestershire
Karma: 2262
Contact:

Re: What makes your life worth living?

#38 Post by Octavious » Mon Oct 17, 2022 6:04 pm

You've not answered the question, I notice.

With the swarms, are you referring to plagues of locusts et al from the Old Testament? I hate to break it to you, but they're not literal histories. I like to think of them as morality tales... an ancient world equivalent of Jaws or The Poseidon Adventure. Designed to appeal to and nurture humanity's sense of justice
I eat cookies to improve my snacking experience

Jamiet99uk
Posts: 22922
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:42 pm
Location: Durham, UK
Karma: 14852
Contact:

Re: What makes your life worth living?

#39 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Oct 17, 2022 6:09 pm

A more precise response is: Presuming God created the world and everything in it, he invented the Malaria virus or must have foreseen its occurrence; knew that thousands of infants would suffer and die as a result, and this is the world he wanted to create. The mosquito is technically only the most commonplace means by which malaria is transmitted.

Octavious
Posts: 3113
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:16 pm
Location: The Five Valleys, Gloucestershire
Karma: 2262
Contact:

Re: What makes your life worth living?

#40 Post by Octavious » Mon Oct 17, 2022 6:33 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 6:09 pm
A more precise response is: Presuming God created the world and everything in it, he invented the Malaria virus or must have foreseen its occurrence; knew that thousands of infants would suffer and die as a result, and this is the world he wanted to create. The mosquito is technically only the most commonplace means by which malaria is transmitted.
The religious thinker believes that the natural world, evolution, life and death is a product of God. The atheist thinker believes that the natural world, evolution, life and death is a product of chance, or at least that no great consciousness was involved.

But the natural world, with all of its magnificence and cruelty, is the same natural world for both observers. So, I ask you again, do you believe the natural world, evolution, life and death is evil?
Last edited by Octavious on Mon Oct 17, 2022 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I eat cookies to improve my snacking experience

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests