Betrayal Blues

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DangoBlitzkrieg
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Betrayal Blues

#1 Post by DangoBlitzkrieg » Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:14 am

Does anyone else struggle with enjoying the game after a stab? In high school I had a high after a well placed stab. Now as an adult, I have a low level depression after knowing I not only ruined someones day, but potentially 2 weeks as they continue to come back to input moves in their clearly dying country. I came back to this game after years, played 4 games, and got the betrayal blues so bad that I haven't joined a new game after those.

With other games, or face to face diplomacy, it doesn't feel bad because it's quicker. But something about the stab effecting someone over the course of a week or weeks is like - how did bilbo put it? - butter spread over too much bread.
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mitomon
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Re: Betrayal Blues

#2 Post by mitomon » Tue Nov 16, 2021 3:30 am

Yeah, I feel you. I've felt so bad about other players getting killed off I try to preserve those with even just one SC by turning them into vassals. They always stab me and I have to kill them, though at least I don't feel so bad about it.

mitomon
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Re: Betrayal Blues

#3 Post by mitomon » Tue Nov 16, 2021 3:30 am

I've found that playing gunboat games helps, since there's no way to reeally stab someone.
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Wusti
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Re: Betrayal Blues

#4 Post by Wusti » Tue Nov 16, 2021 3:48 am

OH shush - put your big boy/girl panties on and get it done. You need a mongrel injection PRONTO!
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Wusti
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Re: Betrayal Blues

#5 Post by Wusti » Tue Nov 16, 2021 3:50 am

But seriously - it is up to every player to make calls on which country to trust (probably helps to 3rd party it as well if you're that sensitive) and to put safeguards in place. If they don't its 100% on them, and your civic duty to play for solo every game.
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Octavious
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Re: Betrayal Blues

#6 Post by Octavious » Tue Nov 16, 2021 6:33 am

Oh dear... so much that's wrong in so few lines...

Firstly, there's no such thing as a clearly dying country. After being stabbed your game dynamic changes, certainly, but only in the sense that your path to glory now leads in a different direction. The player whose reaction to a stab is to enter moves purely to stave off a reliability rating hit until they enjoy the sweet release of death is beneath contempt and has no business playing the game. The true diplomacy player should not worry about not upsetting them, but instead endeavour to make their existence as miserable as possible so the poor wretch never again wastes their time and ours in a game that's clearly not suited to them. Stab them, stab them again, stab their mother, and stab their teddy bear.

Secondly, stabbing is part of the rich tapestry of the game. Take away the stab and you deprive all players of the full gamut of emotion that the game provides. If you never stab you deprive your ally of the opportunity to exercise his skills in maintaining alliances, in balancing his forces and defending his flank. Never stab, and your unbreakable alliance robs your rivals of the solo promising dynamism of the game at its best and replaces it with only a tedious slog towards a stalemate line followed by a draw. To stab and stab well is to show respect to your fellow players. To refrain from stabbing when it is clearly the best option is a slap in the face to each of the six people who trusted you to act in the spirit of the game and to share their time with you.

To play with a sharp knife is to play with honour.
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Wusti
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Re: Betrayal Blues

#7 Post by Wusti » Tue Nov 16, 2021 7:02 am

I can't believe I agree with Octavious - what's happening to me?
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PRINCE WILLIAM
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Re: Betrayal Blues

#8 Post by PRINCE WILLIAM » Tue Nov 16, 2021 3:06 pm

I never stab allies and friends. I have never soloed a game but I am always happy with my games even when I lose.
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Randomizer
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Re: Betrayal Blues

#9 Post by Randomizer » Tue Nov 16, 2021 3:50 pm

I miss playing the game in person where when I got stabbed I could deprive the stabber of the pleasure after the first thrust. I'd identify where he could go next as I withdrew to throw all my remaining forces at his new ally. Thereby making this new alliance shaky as his weak partner became stronger and now a threat to stab him next.
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Doom427
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Re: Betrayal Blues

#10 Post by Doom427 » Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:42 pm

Randomizer wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 3:50 pm
I miss playing the game in person where when I got stabbed I could deprive the stabber of the pleasure after the first thrust.
Hot.

I think part of this is that most games end in a draw rather early? It's so rare to see a game actually go to a real stalemate in my public games, so any betrayal means you want to eliminate them and draw with the other survivors. Plus, even if it stalemates, my old foe draw whittling means the betrayed party will be so weak they'll be killed off.

Also, no one really talks in the mid-game either in my experience, so if your ally betrays you, you probably just don't get to talk to anyone else for the rest of the game :neutral:

Of course, the game's also super boring if you know your ally won't betray you- y'all crazy with the "never betray anyone" thing. Ruins the game for anyone you work with anyone you don't work with.

mitomon
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Re: Betrayal Blues

#11 Post by mitomon » Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:32 am

Doom427 wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:42 pm
Randomizer wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 3:50 pm
I miss playing the game in person where when I got stabbed I could deprive the stabber of the pleasure after the first thrust.
Hot.

I think part of this is that most games end in a draw rather early? It's so rare to see a game actually go to a real stalemate in my public games, so any betrayal means you want to eliminate them and draw with the other survivors. Plus, even if it stalemates, my old foe draw whittling means the betrayed party will be so weak they'll be killed off.

Also, no one really talks in the mid-game either in my experience, so if your ally betrays you, you probably just don't get to talk to anyone else for the rest of the game :neutral:

Of course, the game's also super boring if you know your ally won't betray you- y'all crazy with the "never betray anyone" thing. Ruins the game for anyone you work with anyone you don't work with.
Whaaaat? The power of friendship is the real reward 8-)

Yonni
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Re: Betrayal Blues

#12 Post by Yonni » Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:10 pm

Do people also feel bad about building a hotel on Boardwalk?
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boylee
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Re: Betrayal Blues

#13 Post by boylee » Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:49 pm

I think this is an interesting issue. I, for one, fully sympathize with people who feel guilty; it's a hard-wired emotional response designed to keep society together by punishing oneself for harming another.

One of the many aspects through which Diplomacy challanges us is by forcing us into situations where we have to work through these hardwired emotional responses, be it loyalty, spite, or guilt. At the same time we might be hoping to use the others' emotions against them.

I don't think even the people here who comdemned bringing human emotions into the game would think of play it without relying on said emotions.
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Johnny Big Horse
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Re: Betrayal Blues

#14 Post by Johnny Big Horse » Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:21 am

I have also been one of those guys who was hesitant to stab a partner. I actually did really well in ODC a couple of years ago just teaming with others. I made it to the semi-finals. I played as a team member. I felt that it was no fun to solo, because you do it alone. I like to win as a group. Then you can share the sweet victory. But, after about 4 or 5 years of webdip, I have finally grown up, and grown cold, and sometimes I take the stab. I actually solo'd twice in a row. I never do that. I just got stabbed in a game, it ruined my game, and now for a week or so, I have to watch my SCs dwindle. Terrible feeling. I wonder, what type of people are we, who delight in screwing each other?

Johnny Big Horse
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Re: Betrayal Blues

#15 Post by Johnny Big Horse » Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:23 am

Diplomacy seems to be the opposite of the Christian ethic of loving your neighbor, and our inherent ethic of civilization, that of working together for the common good. It is a strange game. I also wonder, if it does psychic damage to us. What would a Buddhist say? What would Christ say? I wonder.

horizolian
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Re: Betrayal Blues

#16 Post by horizolian » Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:47 am

Realists from Machiavelli to Morgenthau would say that international politics obeys no ethic and certainly no ethic in particular, only the human will to power and the need to survive amidst anarchy. If you play the game, you must play the game as it is, regardless of how you want it to be--otherwise, you lose.

That said, our redemption is not in politics. We must only survive long enough to earn our redemption elsewhere, as according to one's beliefs.
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Octavious
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Re: Betrayal Blues

#17 Post by Octavious » Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:03 am

In what sense is 7 people getting together to play a game the opposite of loving your neighbour or civilisation?

Does it do psychic damage? No

What would a Buddhist say? "Let's play Diplomacy"

What would Jesus say? "Let's play Diplomacy"

Jesus, of course, would probably play on PlayDip due to them having the option set up games that don't process deadlines on the sabbath. Still, it would be unfair to hold this against him.
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Doom427
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Re: Betrayal Blues

#18 Post by Doom427 » Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:25 pm

I can see preferring a more ally-heavy game, but I am a little gobsmacked at this being used as an attempt to evangelize.

Where would we be without the great stabber Judas' attempt to whittle the draw by allying with Rome? I'd like to keep going, but I'm not that familiar with Christianity. Someone more familiar with Mark and Luke and everyone, are they more care-bear style players?
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Octavious
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Re: Betrayal Blues

#19 Post by Octavious » Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:19 pm

Very few carebears in the bible. It is easier for an army to pass through Switzerland than for a carebear to enter into the kingdom of God.

The Bible is full of plots and subtle diplomacy. Jesus was the master. He knew full well of Judas' stab in advance and used it to his advantage. Poor old Judas thought he'd pulled a blinder but was dead in a few days.

Only God was arguably better at this sort of thing. Imagine how easy life would have been if He'd instructed Gabriel to pop over to Herod on the way back from Mary, and let him know He was sending His son to Earth, so be a frightfully good chap and welcome him along and you'll get an honoured seat in heaven.

What a different nativity story that would have been. Sorry, Mary, all the inns are full. Not to worry, though. We've made some space at the Palace that will be quite comfortable. Some odd chaps are waiting to hand over some gifts, but we're keeping them in the east wing until you've had a proper rest. There were also some scruffy looking vagabonds stinking of sheep who were trying to sneek in, but we had them all shot so feel free to relax in peace.
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taylor4
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Re: Betrayal Blues

#20 Post by taylor4 » Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:47 pm

The Old Testament books of Kings, Chronicles, Judges offer a plethora of military and diplomatic examples, if slightly legendarily dippy and/or bloody in parts. Your "average" cliche peacenik may be slightly offended. Am told it may be more palatable in the original Hebrew - of that era. Lost in Translation?
As they say in the marketplace of Ideas, "sola scriptura".

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