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Fluminator wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 20, 2022 1:46 am

"God is impossible" is radically different from "God doesn't exist". If you don't see that I'm not sure where to go from there.

Compare
"There is not a flying spaghetti monster" to "A flying spaghetti monster is impossible"

Compare "There is a chicken" to "There is definitely a chicken".

JECE wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 20, 2022 3:30 am

Bonatogether wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 20, 2022 1:26 am

JECE wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 20, 2022 12:44 am

As for a proof, how about this? If your claim is unfalsifiable, it is false. Checkmate.

if your claim is unfalsifiable, it does not meet the standard of evidence to be used in any rigorous setting, but that doesn't mean it is actually false

A claim that we know will forever be unfalsifiable is highly suspect since the claim was presumably designed to be unfalsifiable, and in any case a claim that will eternally be impossible to investigate cannot meaningfully be debated.

I don't know what the standard is for designed to be unfalsifiable (the existence of God seems to be the benchmark for the category of problem, at any rate), so this seems to be meaningless.

I don't buy that there needs to be a findable answer in order for debate to be meaningful - you can't know if the answer is findable before you start. Perhaps someone will come up with a brilliant proof tomorrow, but we have still learnt something from the process of the debate over time regardless

JECE wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 20, 2022 3:40 am

Fluminator wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 20, 2022 1:46 am

"God is impossible" is radically different from "God doesn't exist". If you don't see that I'm not sure where to go from there.

Compare
"There is not a flying spaghetti monster" to "A flying spaghetti monster is impossible"

Compare "There is a chicken" to "There is definitely a chicken".

?? I don't follow or see any similarity.
"There is not a chicken here" to "It is impossible for chickens to exist" would be the similarities if we're using chickens.

I think the convo is pretty much over. If people just say "God is impossible" without any reasons, there's not much to say further or to respond to.

Bonatogether wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 20, 2022 10:58 am

JECE wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 20, 2022 3:30 am

Bonatogether wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 20, 2022 1:26 am

if your claim is unfalsifiable, it does not meet the standard of evidence to be used in any rigorous setting, but that doesn't mean it is actually false

A claim that we know will forever be unfalsifiable is highly suspect since the claim was presumably designed to be unfalsifiable, and in any case a claim that will eternally be impossible to investigate cannot meaningfully be debated.

I don't know what the standard is for designed to be unfalsifiable (the existence of God seems to be the benchmark for the category of problem, at any rate), so this seems to be meaningless.

I don't buy that there needs to be a findable answer in order for debate to be meaningful - you can't know if the answer is findable before you start. Perhaps someone will come up with a brilliant proof tomorrow, but we have still learnt something from the process of the debate over time regardless

Define proof - we could have a logical proof or empirical proof. A logical proof is always going to depend on a set of assumptions (like Fluminator gave here) which you are just going to have to accept are true. This sort of proof is useful for mathematics but I don't believe it is very useful for proving the existence of God or not.

The other option is empirical proof. Design a reproducible experiment to prove God exists. For example, perhaps farmers that pray for rain are more likely to get it than those that don't? There has to be some cause and effect to show that God exists. If this is not possible, then why is the idea of God important at all to those that don't need God to give their life meaning?

We could investigate the power of prayer, but real talk, if there is a noticeable effect would that actually change your mind?

There are a lot of non-religious people who believe global consciousness affects the world around us, and there are many possible theories for prayer working that don't rely on a god.

What is something that would change your mind and make you believe in God?

I just told you, didn't I? If you can prove a cause and effect relationship, that we can interact with "God" and change something here...and there is no other physical explanation.

I was born into Catholicism but I became agnostic/atheist when I realized it made no sense.

Fluminator wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 19, 2022 11:34 pm

I'm not asking you to disprove God. I'm asking you to prove that God is impossible. That's a very different thing and you are making a pretty radical claim.

Your claim that "God is possible" came first. Where have you proved it?

Fluminator wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 20, 2022 1:46 am

Compare
"There is not a flying spaghetti monster" to "A flying spaghetti monster is impossible"

Do you believe it is possible that an invisible and undetectable Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe?

Bonatogether wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 20, 2022 10:58 am

I don't buy that there needs to be a findable answer in order for debate to be meaningful - you can't know if the answer is findable before you start. Perhaps someone will come up with a brilliant proof tomorrow, but we have still learnt something from the process of the debate over time regardless

In the case of this thread, it is important because of the specific forms of logical argument that Fluminator is attempting to employ.

Fluminator wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 20, 2022 1:26 pm

I think the convo is pretty much over. If people just say "God is impossible" without any reasons, there's not much to say further or to respond to.

I would say that you have not proved that God is possible. You made that claim first, and you have not proved it. So the burden is on you.

flash2015 wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 20, 2022 8:09 pm

I just told you, didn't I? If you can prove a cause and effect relationship, that we can interact with "God" and change something here...and there is no other physical explanation.

Would something like this be the stuff you're looking for?
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3393937/

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 20, 2022 11:52 pm

Fluminator wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 19, 2022 11:34 pm

I'm not asking you to disprove God. I'm asking you to prove that God is impossible. That's a very different thing and you are making a pretty radical claim.

Your claim that "God is possible" came first. Where have you proved it?

1. There's no logical contradiction to the possible existence of a God.
2. If there's no logical contradiction, it is possible God exists.
3. Thus, God is possible.

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 20, 2022 11:55 pm

Fluminator wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 20, 2022 1:46 am

Compare
"There is not a flying spaghetti monster" to "A flying spaghetti monster is impossible"

Do you believe it is possible that an invisible and undetectable Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe?

Yes. It's possible this is a highly advanced Sims game and the entity that is playing this game is a monster of spaghetti or something. There's no positive evidence for it though, so I don't entertain it.

There's no positive evidence for non-spaghetti gods either.

JECE wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 21, 2022 2:04 am

There's no positive evidence for non-spaghetti gods either.

Ok I'll ask what I asked Flash.

What's a specific positive evidence you'd want that would make you consider? The more specific the better.

Fluminator wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 21, 2022 1:50 am

flash2015 wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 20, 2022 8:09 pm

I just told you, didn't I? If you can prove a cause and effect relationship, that we can interact with "God" and change something here...and there is no other physical explanation.

Would something like this be the stuff you're looking for?
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3393937/

Sure though there are many studies which don't show this effect:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11761499/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16023511/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11142453/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16569567/

Fluminator wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 21, 2022 1:50 am

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 20, 2022 11:55 pm

Do you believe it is possible that an invisible and undetectable Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe?

Yes.

So since this possibility is one where the universe was created; the second scenario from your OP, we should update this:

1. If the universe had a beginning, something outside of time triggered it.
2. It is possible that an invisible and undetectable Flying Spaghetti Monster from outside of time created the universe.
3. Therefore it is possible that the universe was not created by God.
4. Therefore the creation of the universe does not imply the existence of God.

Fluminator wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 21, 2022 1:50 am

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 20, 2022 11:52 pm

Your claim that "God is possible" came first. Where have you proved it?

1. There's no logical contradiction to the possible existence of a God.
2. If there's no logical contradiction, it is possible God exists.
3. Thus, God is possible.

There's no positive evidence for it though, so I don't entertain it.

flash2015 wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 21, 2022 3:09 pm

Fluminator wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 21, 2022 1:50 am

flash2015 wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 20, 2022 8:09 pm

I just told you, didn't I? If you can prove a cause and effect relationship, that we can interact with "God" and change something here...and there is no other physical explanation.

Would something like this be the stuff you're looking for?
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3393937/

Sure though there are many studies which don't show this effect:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11761499/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16023511/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11142453/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16569567/

The one I linked was specific to the Judeo-Christian God.
In the ones you linked it was just general prayer, so I'd have to dig deeper to see what gods they were praying to.

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 21, 2022 3:20 pm

Fluminator wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 21, 2022 1:50 am

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 20, 2022 11:55 pm

Do you believe it is possible that an invisible and undetectable Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe?

Yes.

So since this possibility is one where the universe was created; the second scenario from your OP, we should update this:

1. If the universe had a beginning, something outside of time triggered it.
2. It is possible that an invisible and undetectable Flying Spaghetti Monster from outside of time created the universe.
3. Therefore it is possible that the universe was not created by God.
4. Therefore the creation of the universe does not imply the existence of God.

This is sort of getting to semantics, but the flying spaghetti monster would be God if this happened. They'd be the same thing.
(I just wouldn't view it as a God worth worshipping even if it created us)

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 21, 2022 3:21 pm

Fluminator wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 21, 2022 1:50 am

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 20, 2022 11:52 pm

Your claim that "God is possible" came first. Where have you proved it?

1. There's no logical contradiction to the possible existence of a God.
2. If there's no logical contradiction, it is possible God exists.
3. Thus, God is possible.

There's no positive evidence for it though, so I don't entertain it.

Ok but you did not back up the pretty radical claim God is Impossible, so I'm content continuing to assume God is possible.

Fluminator wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 21, 2022 5:04 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 21, 2022 3:21 pm

Fluminator wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 21, 2022 1:50 am

1. There's no logical contradiction to the possible existence of a God.
2. If there's no logical contradiction, it is possible God exists.
3. Thus, God is possible.

There's no positive evidence for it though, so I don't entertain it.

Ok but you did not back up the pretty radical claim God is Impossible, so I'm content continuing to assume God is possible.

You haven't backed up your radical claim either, other than demanding that other people should provide irrefutable evidence to disprove it, which in itself is not any kind of proof.