Each of these verses has to do with justice. I agree, justice should be done. If someone steals, then recompense should be paid. If someone murders, they should be sentenced to death or life in prison. None of that is contrary to what I said. I said that if I think someone is going to kill me tomorrow I will not go kill them today. I also said that I value others' lives over my own. None of that contradicts any of those verses.Esquire Bertissimmo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 6:42 pmYou have an extremely narrow view of what "interpret" means.
You have already interpreted the Bible by choosing to highlight this one phrase instead of many others on the topic:
Exodus 21:24 - "Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot."
Leviticus 24:19-20 - "Anyone who injures their neighbor is to be injured in the same manner: fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth."
Deuteronomy 19:21 - "Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot."
Psalms 137:8-9 - "O daughter Babylon, doomed to be destroyed, blessed shall he be who repays you with what you have done to us! Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!"
1 Samuel 15:3 - "Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey."
2 Thessalonians 1:6 - "God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you."
Revelation 6:10 - "They called out in a loud voice, 'How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?'"
Luke 22:36 - "He said to them, 'But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.'"
Where does what I said contradict any of those verses? You may do justice with love. In fact, often the reason that justice is done is out of love. As for turning the other cheek, that also does not contradict that. Turning the other cheek has to do with forgiveness, but it does not mean that justice is not also enacted. Notably, some of those verses mention God doing justice, and justice will be done by God for each grievance, even if it is not repaid by humans, and even if it does not occur on Earth.
You don't have to interpret anything here. Nothing contradicts, so you may simply read it and follow it as it is given.
I recommend to you to read 1 Corinthians 13 and Romans 12, which outline some of what love entails. Also, in John 15:12, Jesus says: "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you." Following Christ's example of sacrifice for others is what love is.Esquire Bertissimmo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 6:42 pmLikewise, your claim seems to be that "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" has only one possible interpretation and that it is comprehensive moral advice. But this is obviously untrue. Even if they agree on the centrality of Matthew 3:43-44, different Christian traditions and individual Christians will all give you a different answer if you ask them what "love" requires and how you should show "love" to your enemies.
Once again, these give very clear instructions. Sure, not specific to every possible scenario, but certainly applicable to all.
What contradictions?Esquire Bertissimmo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 6:42 pmNow even if you feel you can resolve these issues for all of Christendom with your superior literalist reading of the Bible, how does Matthew 5:43-44 actually solve any real moral quandies without a ton more subjective interpretation? I no doubt think that you have an answer to each of the moral issues I have listed below, but I want to get you to consider that *your* answer to these questions cannot simply be informed by a simple non-interpretive answer from the Bible because of the contradictions in the Bible's moral advice:
I lead you back to John 15:12, in which love is defined as following Jesus' example. That means sacrifice of oneself for the sake of others. Be prepared, yes. Prepared to defend others. If violence is threatened against me, and none others, then I will defend myself, but not to the point of taking a life. If violence is threatened against myself and others, then I will have no hesitation in taking the life of one who would take the life of others.Esquire Bertissimmo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 6:42 pmSelf-Defense vs. Non-Violence: If an individual is threatened with violence, does the principle of loving and praying for enemies (Matthew 5:43-44) prohibit any form of self-defense? How does this reconcile with the instruction in Luke 22:36 to be prepared, even to the point of buying a sword?
Forgiveness does not mean retribution or restitution is ignored.Esquire Bertissimmo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 6:42 pmJustice System and Punishment: How should a Christian approach the justice system? Should they advocate for retributive justice, echoing the "eye for eye" principle from Exodus 21:24, or should they push for a system that focuses more on rehabilitation and forgiveness, in line with Jesus' teachings in Matthew?
As Jesus said in Matthew 5:17, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
Justice for all wrongs will be done, whether on Earth or after death. However, that does not mean it is ours to do. The government has a role in justice (Romans 13), and each individual has a responsibility to protect those around them, but all will be meted out to correct justice by God.
Defensive military action, to save the lives and well-being of one's citizens, is always justified. This is due to the responsibility of a government to protect it's citizens, and the responsibility of each individual to protect those around them. The verse in 1 Samuel was a specific commandment to the Israelites, and does not imply that we should go about attacking whomever we please.Esquire Bertissimmo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 6:42 pmWar and Military Action: In a situation where a nation must decide whether to engage in war or military action, which principle should guide the decision? Should they follow the path of peace and love for enemies, or is there a time when the more aggressive stances, as seen in passages like 1 Samuel 15:3, become necessary?
If the government commands you to do something against the law of God, the law of God is a higher authority. Thus, if a government is acting immorally, it is the individual's responsibility to protect others, even with their own sacrifice.Esquire Bertissimmo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 6:42 pmDealing with Oppressive Regimes: How should one respond to oppressive governments or regimes? Is praying for them and showing love sufficient, or does justice require active opposition, possibly even to the point of violence, as suggested in some Old Testament passages?
As I have already stated, forgiveness does not necessitate a lack of restitution. That said, it is not one's individual responsibility to be a vigilante, meting out justice where and when they see fit. Justice in civil matters is a function of the government, and in fact is the very purpose of the government (again, Romans 13).Esquire Bertissimmo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 6:42 pmResponding to Personal Betrayal or Harm: When someone faces personal betrayal or harm, how should they reconcile the command to love and forgive with the natural desire for justice or retribution? Does loving an enemy mean foregoing all forms of personal justice or accountability?
Once again, an individual has the responsibility to protect others.Esquire Bertissimmo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 6:42 pmNational and Personal Security: How should a Christian balance the need for national and personal security with the imperative to love and not to harm others? Where is the line between prudent self-protection and a violation of the principle of loving one’s enemies?
Loving others and harming others are not mutually exclusive; sometimes the most loving thing you can do for someone is to incapacitate them to stop them from doing evil. Loving your enemies does not mean allowing them to do evil.
As I said, loving someone does not mean allowing them to do evil. To enable the doing of evil is not loving, either to the victim or the one who does it.Esquire Bertissimmo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 6:42 pmForgiveness vs. Enabling Harm: When dealing with individuals who repeatedly cause harm, how does one balance the command to forgive with the need to prevent further harm? Does loving an enemy include allowing them to continue harmful behaviors unchecked?
I think the trouble here is that you have not been taught what Biblical love is. Once again, I recommend you read Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians 13, as well as 1 John 4.
You'll find that love is not just letting people do what they want. It is protection, sacrifice, kindness, patience, and many other things.
Christians are commanded to love as Christ loved, which means sacrifice, empathy, and yet also not allowing evil to continue.
All of this is determined simply by reading the Bible.
The fact that there are different interpretations does not mean that the Bible is not objective truth. If someone has a different interpretation and says it is Biblically based, then let us discuss it. Perhaps I am wrong about some of these, and I may well be. The only correction I will receive as moral truth is correction that is clearly based in the Bible. Why? Because the Bible is consistent with itself, and is ultimate moral truth.