Saurons Armies were more Ethnically diverse than Gondors
Forum rules
Feel free to discuss any topics here. Please use the Politics sub-forum for political conversations. While most topics will be allowed please be sure to be respectful and follow our normal site rules at http://www.webdiplomacy.net/rules.php.
Feel free to discuss any topics here. Please use the Politics sub-forum for political conversations. While most topics will be allowed please be sure to be respectful and follow our normal site rules at http://www.webdiplomacy.net/rules.php.
Saurons Armies were more Ethnically diverse than Gondors
Sauron had an incredibly diverse army bringing men, orcs, undeads and factions from a variety of regions together. By comparison Gondors armies were all men, no women, and all presumably from Gondor/Numenorian descent only. Sauron would have built a more diverse world with better workplace benefits and greater inclusivity.
Well, I grew up in the fallout from the riots in the '90s
Static cranes stand lifeless, castin' shadows on the town
I stare out that hallowed ocean as if to pick a fight
For thе dreams my old man dreamt for me lay on thе other side, yeah
Static cranes stand lifeless, castin' shadows on the town
I stare out that hallowed ocean as if to pick a fight
For thе dreams my old man dreamt for me lay on thе other side, yeah
- Chaqa
- Bronze Donator
- Posts: 14167
- Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:33 pm
- Location: Allentown, PA, USA
- Contact:
Re: Saurons Armies were more Ethnically diverse than Gondors
It's pretty widely accepted on certain corners of the internet that Tolkien's works were thinly veiled white saviorism.
-
- Posts: 779
- Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:15 pm
- Location: Milky Way
- Contact:
Re: Saurons Armies were more Ethnically diverse than Gondors
Yeah that is the one downside to an otherwise perfect masterpiece of literature. I don't support racism and I'm disappointed that Tolkien seems to have to a degree.
Re: Saurons Armies were more Ethnically diverse than Gondors
Fake fan spotted.
The books make clear the armies that defended Minas Tirith are actually a variety of man from across all of Middle Earth who gathered together. Three pages are dedicated to the parade coming to the city to help protect them.
Though Mordor does have them beat in Gender- Shelob is allowed to openly serve (in a non-military role) while eoweyn had to hide her gender while serving.
The books make clear the armies that defended Minas Tirith are actually a variety of man from across all of Middle Earth who gathered together. Three pages are dedicated to the parade coming to the city to help protect them.
Though Mordor does have them beat in Gender- Shelob is allowed to openly serve (in a non-military role) while eoweyn had to hide her gender while serving.
-
- Posts: 4028
- Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:16 pm
- Location: The Five Valleys, Gloucestershire
- Contact:
Re: Saurons Armies were more Ethnically diverse than Gondors
I eat cookies to improve my snacking experience
-
- Posts: 937
- Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:17 am
- Contact:
Re: Saurons Armies were more Ethnically diverse than Gondors
Before you start looking down on Tolkien, do remember that he was born and raised in a very different society from our own. The place of women in society or the equality of races were things that had just started to be of concern and debate.
Re: Saurons Armies were more Ethnically diverse than Gondors
Tolkien wrote this about the war of the last alliance (the war that is shown briefly at the beginning in the LotR movies when Elendil [plus Isildur] and Gilgalad face Sauron):
In the later years, since the realm of Gondor was much smaller, you can't fault them for not having the same resources as when Numenor was on their height and thereby not having enough reach to have access to the other races. Gondor and their allies would've taken help from every side, if only they would fight for the same goal. The best examples here would be the ghost army of Aragorn or the conscription of a Hobbit.
With this we have proof that the numenorian faction was inclusive for other races, if they worked for the same goal, even if they were orcs, goblins or trolls. There might be an argument for unliving and undeads here, but a) they are twisted abominations in the face of Eru and b) they still retain their race ethnicity, just change their status from living to dead."All living things were divided in that day, and some of every kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save the elves only. They alone were undivided ..."
In the later years, since the realm of Gondor was much smaller, you can't fault them for not having the same resources as when Numenor was on their height and thereby not having enough reach to have access to the other races. Gondor and their allies would've taken help from every side, if only they would fight for the same goal. The best examples here would be the ghost army of Aragorn or the conscription of a Hobbit.
- Jamiet99uk
- Posts: 32404
- Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:42 pm
- Location: Durham, UK
- Contact:
Re: Saurons Armies were more Ethnically diverse than Gondors
This is false because everyone knows the Internet is round.
The only person you're truly competing against, Wesley, is yourself.
-
- Posts: 750
- Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:04 am
- Contact:
Re: Saurons Armies were more Ethnically diverse than Gondors
Tolkien had some prominent heroines, Eowyn and Galadriel, but almost all women are off I support positions and not fighters.
There is some racism where the dark skin humans are Sauron supporters.
There is some racism where the dark skin humans are Sauron supporters.
Re: Saurons Armies were more Ethnically diverse than Gondors
How many female warriors do you think there were in middle-ages combat? We shouldn't have to make every novel politically correct.Randomizer wrote: ↑Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:21 pmTolkien had some prominent heroines, Eowyn and Galadriel, but almost all women are off I support positions and not fighters.
There is some racism where the dark skin humans are Sauron supporters.
In fantasy the "bad guys" are most likely going to look different, most likely ugly too (same with horror). Doesn't mean this was done with racist intent.
Can you show me something outside of the book that shows that Tolkien was really a racist?
Re: Saurons Armies were more Ethnically diverse than Gondors
Oh my goodness. Go back to your cave please.flash2015 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 12, 2022 4:36 amIn fantasy the "bad guys" are most likely going to look different, most likely ugly too (same with horror). Doesn't mean this was done with racist intent.Randomizer wrote: ↑Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:21 pmThere is some racism where the dark skin humans are Sauron supporters.
See my full Profile:
http://www.webdiplomacy.net/profile.php?userID=17421
http://www.webdiplomacy.net/profile.php?userID=17421
Re: Saurons Armies were more Ethnically diverse than Gondors
Huh? I am just telling you reality. Not everything has to be viewed through a racial lens.JECE wrote: ↑Sat Nov 12, 2022 3:07 pmOh my goodness. Go back to your cave please.flash2015 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 12, 2022 4:36 amIn fantasy the "bad guys" are most likely going to look different, most likely ugly too (same with horror). Doesn't mean this was done with racist intent.Randomizer wrote: ↑Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:21 pmThere is some racism where the dark skin humans are Sauron supporters.
Re: Saurons Armies were more Ethnically diverse than Gondors
A lot of what Tolkien created wasn't original. He reused ideas from older European mythology (dwarves and elves I believe came from German mythology).
Re: Saurons Armies were more Ethnically diverse than Gondors
People have also argued there is a lot of Christian values in Tolkien:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian ... ddle-earth
Tolkien was a devout Catholic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian ... ddle-earth
Tolkien was a devout Catholic.
- Fluminator
- Posts: 5452
- Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:50 pm
- Contact:
Re: Saurons Armies were more Ethnically diverse than Gondors
In the Silmarillion, Tolkien definitely viewed some races or groups of elves/humans as better than others. It wasn't necessarily a parallel to real world racism, but his worldview framework was very much "some groups are intrinsically better than others"
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users