75% of the world's problems could be solved...

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JECE
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Re: 75% of the world's problems could be solved...

#21 Post by JECE » Mon Sep 26, 2022 3:35 pm

I'm strongly against the death penalty in all circumstances, but I can guess where Tolstoy is coming from and I think that Tolstoy is semi-serious.

The scariest thing about Tolstoy's proposal is that the killing would never stop, since I presume that psychopathy would continue to live on as a recessive dream. Eventually, a society that systematically exterminated all psychopaths would kill more people than psychopaths had killed when they were at large.

I think that it's also worth noting that psychopaths (who are incapable of feeling empathy) and sociopaths (who find it difficult to feel empathy) are not thought to be one and the same, so it is impossible to identify all of the heartless people who live among us.
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Re: 75% of the world's problems could be solved...

#22 Post by JECE » Mon Sep 26, 2022 3:45 pm

JECE wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 3:35 pm
The scariest thing about Tolstoy's proposal is that the killing would never stop, since I presume that psychopathy would continue to live on as a recessive dream.
Um, 'gene', not "dream". :shock: :lol:
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Re: 75% of the world's problems could be solved...

#23 Post by Gwyn » Mon Sep 26, 2022 3:52 pm

JECE wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 3:35 pm
I think that it's also worth noting that psychopaths (who are incapable of feeling empathy) and sociopaths (who find it difficult to feel empathy) are not thought to be one and the same, so it is impossible to identify all of the heartless people who live among us.
I think that it's also worth noting that just because someone is incapable of feeling empathy doesn't mean that they will act in problematic ways. Many psychopaths/sociopaths abide by the system of laws that we have.

This is basically a situation where you have a person saying "X demographic has higher rates of crime, so we should exterminate them all"
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Re: 75% of the world's problems could be solved...

#24 Post by Doom427 » Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:41 pm

Tolstoy wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:17 am

Psychopaths cause, directly and indirectly, hundreds of thousands of deaths every year. Overt, violent and direct murders aside (tens of thousands worldwide every year), you have wars to secure privileges and profits for politically connected psychopaths; you have drug ODs from pharmaceutical companies who deliberately pump deadly drugs into certain communities for massive profits; children driven to suicide from bullying in schools; adults driven to suicide from bullying at work by psychopathic bosses; others driven to suicide after being swindled or robbed of their life savings; others killed in accidents by psychopaths who cut corners on the job in dangerous fields like construction; others killed in road accidents by psychopaths' reckless driving; Old grannies swindled out of their life savings, the millions of people left homeless from massive financial swindles like the "Great Recession" of 2008-09, people laid off so they could be replaced by cheaper third world labor, children mentally and physically abused by psychopathic parents or caretakers, et cetera, et cetera.
None of this shit has anything to do with Psychopaths- these are just the basic structures of American society (and societies beyond that). There is no magic biological test we can run that will get rid of the bad people and only leave behind the good ones.

I mean this totally seriously- the bullys aren't psychopaths, they don't suffer from lack of empathy, most of the shittiness comes from a group of assholes who love each other a whole lot but don't give a shit about you. "Psychopathy" will never refer to them because as a term it can only mean "bad person who does bad things", and those people are successful, so successful as to never face any consequences. If there was some test that showed they all suffered form some similar brain chemistry, what would end up happening is it would be celebrated as evidence of their genetic superiority that proves why they're important and you aren't

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Re: 75% of the world's problems could be solved...

#25 Post by Tolstoy » Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:55 pm

Wow, looks like I flushed out a live one!

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Re: 75% of the world's problems could be solved...

#26 Post by Tolstoy » Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:21 pm

JECE wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 3:35 pm
...the killing would never stop, since I presume that psychopathy would continue to live on as a recessive dream. Eventually, a society that systematically exterminated all psychopaths would kill more people than psychopaths had killed when they were at large.
Widespread genetic testing to identify those carrying the psychopathy genes, followed by gene therapy, sterilization of those carrying psychopathy genes, or selective abortion after genetic test of fetuses... there are many options to keep the problem in check, it all depends on how much money and resources society is willing to commit to solving this problem once and for all.
I think that it's also worth noting that psychopaths (who are incapable of feeling empathy) and sociopaths (who find it difficult to feel empathy) are not thought to be one and the same, so it is impossible to identify all of the heartless people who live among us.
Yes, this is an important point. Sociopaths are made (by abuse and trauma, much of it caused by psychopaths) and not created, like psychopaths are by genetic defects. Eliminating the psychopaths would go a long way towards (gradually) reducing sociopathy (hopefully, to zero). I'm not sure there's been a lot of research into differentiating sociopaths from psychopaths in brain imaging, it would be necessary to do some research there before proceeding. Either that or really 100% pinning down which combination of genes causes psychopathy, and using that as the yardstick.

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Re: 75% of the world's problems could be solved...

#27 Post by Tolstoy » Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:59 pm

Gwyn wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 3:52 pm
I think that it's also worth noting that just because someone is incapable of feeling empathy doesn't mean that they will act in problematic ways. Many psychopaths/sociopaths abide by the system of laws that we have.
These are the truly dangerous psychopaths, who cause massive damage to society on industrial scales. These are the ones who are able to figure out how 'normies' think well enough to play by their rules (nor not get caught breaking them), fit in, and stay out of prison. They are attracted to power, and seek out professions where they can obtain and wield it only for their own benefit. Their lack of the moral restraints which decent, normal people possess gives them a serious competitive edge in these professions, so they often rise to the very highest levels, where they can do the most damage. Some of these professions include police officers, journalism, politics, big business, and law. Do you think the world is a better place because psychopaths are overrepresented in these professions, or a worse place?
This is basically a situation where you have a person saying "X demographic has higher rates of crime, so we should exterminate them all"
If a clearly identifiable 1% of the human population is creating 75% of the world's problems, should they be allowed to do so indefinitely? Are the other 99% percent of us supposed to just shrug every time we get ripped off by a psychopathic used car salesman, or beaten and jailed by a psychopathic police officer, mugged by a psychopathic street thug, or lose our jobs because some psychopath put our employer out of business through stock manipulation? Is this just the cost of living? Can you tell me how the the world would really be that much worse off if we just got rid of them for good?

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Re: 75% of the world's problems could be solved...

#28 Post by JECE » Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:41 am

Tolstoy wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:21 pm
JECE wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 3:35 pm
...the killing would never stop, since I presume that psychopathy would continue to live on as a recessive dream. Eventually, a society that systematically exterminated all psychopaths would kill more people than psychopaths had killed when they were at large.
Widespread genetic testing to identify those carrying the psychopathy genes, followed by gene therapy, sterilization of those carrying psychopathy genes, or selective abortion after genetic test of fetuses... there are many options to keep the problem in check, it all depends on how much money and resources society is willing to commit to solving this problem once and for all.
I think that it's also worth noting that psychopaths (who are incapable of feeling empathy) and sociopaths (who find it difficult to feel empathy) are not thought to be one and the same, so it is impossible to identify all of the heartless people who live among us.
Yes, this is an important point. Sociopaths are made (by abuse and trauma, much of it caused by psychopaths) and not created, like psychopaths are by genetic defects. Eliminating the psychopaths would go a long way towards (gradually) reducing sociopathy (hopefully, to zero). I'm not sure there's been a lot of research into differentiating sociopaths from psychopaths in brain imaging, it would be necessary to do some research there before proceeding. Either that or really 100% pinning down which combination of genes causes psychopathy, and using that as the yardstick.
Brain scans are not the same thing as genetic testing. You're putting a lot of faith on technology that does not exist and may never exist. And I don't think that a brain scan of a fetus is going to identify psychopathy. You're also assuming that society will show restraint when killing massive numbers of people. Why not kill the people carrying the gene too, even if the carriers themselves aren't psychopaths?

As for sociopathy being somehow triggered by psychopaths, do you have any proof of that? I think that sociopaths can go down the rabbit hole all by themselves with environmental influences that are neither abuse nor trauma.
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Re: 75% of the world's problems could be solved...

#29 Post by MajorMitchell » Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:16 am

I note the uncaring sociopaths have passed over the news from.our Ivtavipus that Mrs Octavious was having her scan and you heartless brutish sociopaths have not offered any congratulations to the prospevtive patents,Mr & Mrs Octavious.
If their child grows up to be a sociopath or worse, a psychopath it will all be the fault of those who heartlessly denied the Octavious family of the love and support they deserve.
Congratulations Octavious , you could write a book from.the experience, "Octogenerians Raising Fledglings"
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Re: 75% of the world's problems could be solved...

#30 Post by MajorMitchell » Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:19 am

Which 75% of the problems would be solved? The top 75%, the bottom 75% or the 75% in the middle with 12.5% unresolved problems either end?
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Re: 75% of the world's problems could be solved...

#31 Post by Crazy Anglican » Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:59 am

Now wait a minute, you're supposing there is no use for psychopaths....

I happen to know there are guys chained in basements in Alabama with signs on the door reading "Only open in times of war".

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Re: 75% of the world's problems could be solved...

#32 Post by aardvarkarmy » Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:15 am

Tolstoy wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 4:04 am
If we exterminated the ~1% of the human population that are psychopaths. You can clearly identify them with a simple brain scan. Is there a utilitarian moral argument against exterminating psychopaths?
I'm not sure what the "official" psychiatric diagnosis entails, but I think it's a safe bet that advocating the mass murder of 80 million people is pretty much a bullseye (a number, by the way, larger than Hitler, Pol Pot and every other 20th century mass-murderer combined)

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Re: 75% of the world's problems could be solved...

#33 Post by Jamiet99uk » Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:17 am

Crazy Anglican wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:59 am
Now wait a minute, you're supposing there is no use for psychopaths....

I happen to know there are guys chained in basements in Alabama with signs on the door reading "Only open in times of war".
What have you been doing in Brainbomb's house?

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