Betrayal Blues

General discussions that don't fit in other forums can go here.
Forum rules
Feel free to discuss any topics here. Please use the Politics sub-forum for political conversations. While most topics will be allowed please be sure to be respectful and follow our normal site rules at http://www.webdiplomacy.net/rules.php.
Message
Author
Octavious
Posts: 2531
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:16 pm
Location: The Five Valleys, Gloucestershire
Karma: 1964
Contact:

Re: Betrayal Blues

#21 Post by Octavious » Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:28 pm

The Old Testament always seemed to lack subtly to me. Samson won a few great victories, but always by charging in, tearing people apart and trusting to luck. If you were feeling charitable you could say that Elisha killing the boys who were mocking his haircut by persuading God to send bears to slaughter them is diplomacy in action... but anyone trying something similar in the game is liable to be eaten by the bears shortly after.
1
I eat cookies to improve my snacking experience

jasnah
Posts: 506
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:13 pm
Karma: 305

Re: Betrayal Blues

#22 Post by jasnah » Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:08 am

Octavious wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 6:33 am
Oh dear... so much that's wrong in so few lines...

Firstly, there's no such thing as a clearly dying country. After being stabbed your game dynamic changes, certainly, but only in the sense that your path to glory now leads in a different direction. The player whose reaction to a stab is to enter moves purely to stave off a reliability rating hit until they enjoy the sweet release of death is beneath contempt and has no business playing the game. The true diplomacy player should not worry about not upsetting them, but instead endeavour to make their existence as miserable as possible so the poor wretch never again wastes their time and ours in a game that's clearly not suited to them. Stab them, stab them again, stab their mother, and stab their teddy bear.

Secondly, stabbing is part of the rich tapestry of the game. Take away the stab and you deprive all players of the full gamut of emotion that the game provides. If you never stab you deprive your ally of the opportunity to exercise his skills in maintaining alliances, in balancing his forces and defending his flank. Never stab, and your unbreakable alliance robs your rivals of the solo promising dynamism of the game at its best and replaces it with only a tedious slog towards a stalemate line followed by a draw. To stab and stab well is to show respect to your fellow players. To refrain from stabbing when it is clearly the best option is a slap in the face to each of the six people who trusted you to act in the spirit of the game and to share their time with you.

To play with a sharp knife is to play with honour.
Why do people on this website play so mean? I understand now why my attempted alliances with webdippers don't usually go well :cry:
3

TheFlyingBoat
Posts: 721
Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2020 10:24 pm
Karma: 1320

Re: Betrayal Blues

#23 Post by TheFlyingBoat » Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:15 am

jasnah wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:08 am
Octavious wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 6:33 am
Oh dear... so much that's wrong in so few lines...

Firstly, there's no such thing as a clearly dying country. After being stabbed your game dynamic changes, certainly, but only in the sense that your path to glory now leads in a different direction. The player whose reaction to a stab is to enter moves purely to stave off a reliability rating hit until they enjoy the sweet release of death is beneath contempt and has no business playing the game. The true diplomacy player should not worry about not upsetting them, but instead endeavour to make their existence as miserable as possible so the poor wretch never again wastes their time and ours in a game that's clearly not suited to them. Stab them, stab them again, stab their mother, and stab their teddy bear.

Secondly, stabbing is part of the rich tapestry of the game. Take away the stab and you deprive all players of the full gamut of emotion that the game provides. If you never stab you deprive your ally of the opportunity to exercise his skills in maintaining alliances, in balancing his forces and defending his flank. Never stab, and your unbreakable alliance robs your rivals of the solo promising dynamism of the game at its best and replaces it with only a tedious slog towards a stalemate line followed by a draw. To stab and stab well is to show respect to your fellow players. To refrain from stabbing when it is clearly the best option is a slap in the face to each of the six people who trusted you to act in the spirit of the game and to share their time with you.

To play with a sharp knife is to play with honour.
Why do people on this website play so mean? I understand now why my attempted alliances with webdippers don't usually go well :cry:
smh
3

Wusti
Posts: 270
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:12 pm
Karma: 153

Re: Betrayal Blues

#24 Post by Wusti » Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:19 am

jasnah wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:08 am
Octavious wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 6:33 am
Oh dear... so much that's wrong in so few lines...

Firstly, there's no such thing as a clearly dying country. After being stabbed your game dynamic changes, certainly, but only in the sense that your path to glory now leads in a different direction. The player whose reaction to a stab is to enter moves purely to stave off a reliability rating hit until they enjoy the sweet release of death is beneath contempt and has no business playing the game. The true diplomacy player should not worry about not upsetting them, but instead endeavour to make their existence as miserable as possible so the poor wretch never again wastes their time and ours in a game that's clearly not suited to them. Stab them, stab them again, stab their mother, and stab their teddy bear.

Secondly, stabbing is part of the rich tapestry of the game. Take away the stab and you deprive all players of the full gamut of emotion that the game provides. If you never stab you deprive your ally of the opportunity to exercise his skills in maintaining alliances, in balancing his forces and defending his flank. Never stab, and your unbreakable alliance robs your rivals of the solo promising dynamism of the game at its best and replaces it with only a tedious slog towards a stalemate line followed by a draw. To stab and stab well is to show respect to your fellow players. To refrain from stabbing when it is clearly the best option is a slap in the face to each of the six people who trusted you to act in the spirit of the game and to share their time with you.

To play with a sharp knife is to play with honour.
Why do people on this website play so mean? I understand now why my attempted alliances with webdippers don't usually go well :cry:
If you are not playing to win you are doing it wrong, and depriving both yourself and others the pleasure of a hard fought game. "Mean" has no validity in a Dip context. There is only the means to the end.

PRINCE WILLIAM
Posts: 629
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:17 am
Karma: 775

Re: Betrayal Blues

#25 Post by PRINCE WILLIAM » Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:09 am

For some people, me included, the end cannot validate the means by any standard.
Yes, I play to win, but if there happens to have a loyal and trusted ally all the game I won't betray him, I will set for the second best and draw with him.
3

Doom427
Posts: 526
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:54 am
Karma: 973

Re: Betrayal Blues

#26 Post by Doom427 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:15 pm

PRINCE WILLIAM wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:09 am
For some people, me included, the end cannot validate the means by any standard.
Yes, I play to win, but if there happens to have a loyal and trusted ally all the game I won't betray him, I will set for the second best and draw with him.
What, exactly, is the "means" that's so awful? We're not... actually murdering thousands of soldiers through pointless wars in an endless dick measuring contest here.

I honestly feel worse when a player I'm currently fighting sends me a message saying we can work together. I'll respond, but I'll feel bad if I'm not actually aiming for peace.

But just responding by saying "Sorry, I never betray people in this game. You didn't ally me in the first year, so you can't play with me anymore. We're fighting the whole game" makes me feel slimy.
1

boylee
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:41 pm
Karma: 27

Re: Betrayal Blues

#27 Post by boylee » Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:03 pm

Morality and games have always been related. We all agree that scoring a goal in football isn't morally wrong -- the point of the game is to win and you win by scoring goals. Yet, many would also agree that there are "immoral" ways of scoring: diving to get penalties, or scoring while the opposition is stopping for an injury are all frowned upon.

Diplomacy is fascinating to me because even in its sterile, abstract world we can define terms like "alliances" and "betrayals". From then on, the story of the game, and its moral connotations are what you make them to be. For some, and for me as well, stabbing to win is just like (morally) scoring a goal -- it's what the game's all about. Yet, I need to take regular breaks from the Classic variant and play a lot more 1v1s because of the psychological toll Classic takes on me.

But then the question was, whether this attitude makes us better or worse as people outside Diplomacy (or at least that's how I understood the question that someone thought was an attempt at proselytization). I sincerely hope that nobody brings the backstabbing part of Diplomacy outside the game. Unfortunately, I know people for whom this attitude seems to be natural.
3

Doom427
Posts: 526
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:54 am
Karma: 973

Re: Betrayal Blues

#28 Post by Doom427 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:31 pm

Got disgusting close to posting "You cheated not only the game, but yourself-You didn't grow. You didn't improve. You took a shortcut and gained nothing. Nothing was risked and nothing was gained. It's sad that you don't know the difference." without a single ounce of irony. THAT did make me feel guilty and disgusted at myself.

Maybe I'm too acidic, but I consider the game something fun and not all that dramatic, so making someone lose a few dip coins and ghost rating isn't all that sad to me. And considering how much I have to sugar coat and plead to make a partner do something solely beneficial to them, I usually cherish the moment when I can disrobe the happy and kind persona and just stab away.

Unless anyone reading this is ever in a game with me. You're so cool and interesting and smart, and kinda cute too ;)

I just consider "loyalty" more of a vice than a virtue- claiming you're a better person for passively sticking with something comfortable is toxic to my nature.

We can debate ethics of diplomacy, and I disagree there are no ethics to the game. There are plenty of things I find gross and hate and avoid (Draw-Whittling, my old foe). "Betrayals" though? Jeez, I think it's worse to say "Sorry, I promised I would never attack this player, and I can't just GO BACK on that" than any Betrayal you could do. That's just cheating the game and yourself. (Damn, I turned into a gamer bro :cry: )
1

Johnny Big Horse
Gold Donator
Gold Donator
Posts: 276
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:36 am
Karma: 327

Re: Betrayal Blues

#29 Post by Johnny Big Horse » Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:18 pm

This is the best forum topic I have read ever. Great posts by most of you.

In real life, I have always tended to trust others, but I learned from Webdip that people all have their own ends in mind, and they ally with you, if you can further them. I think that is real. Even if it comes to a loved one. I learned that here.

For people like me, not any more virtuous than anyone else by the way, webdip is good practice doing things we never do. Betray and lie and cheat. I think to be fully human, you need to have all of these tools at the ready.
5

FlaviusAetius
Posts: 2673
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:15 am
Karma: 252

Re: Betrayal Blues

#30 Post by FlaviusAetius » Sat Nov 20, 2021 12:04 pm

There's many times when a stab is not worth it though and I think that's what's being forgotten here. In well formed alliances a stab is seen miles away, and easily defended against. It is ONLY when the alliance starts feeling pressure, or people stop expanding is when the alliance starts to shake and fall apart.
If you stabbed and lost---it was probably not the time to do the stab(if there ever was one in that game)

taylor4
Posts: 58
Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:44 pm
Karma: 7

Re: Betrayal Blues

#31 Post by taylor4 » Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:55 pm

The smiler with the ... stiletto

Mark Murray
Bronze Donator
Bronze Donator
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:08 am
Karma: 11

Re: Betrayal Blues

#32 Post by Mark Murray » Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:01 am

..."and no religion too". I'm sorry, but I love a good alliance game. Gives me a little chubby.
1

Sunstriker
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:34 pm
Karma: 42

Re: Betrayal Blues

#33 Post by Sunstriker » Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:06 pm

I tend to do better being the stabbed vs doing the stabbing. Especially if I’ve had the ally for a while.

But if I see a path to a solo I’ll try to take it. (I’m not very good at getting to that solo, but I’ll still try!)

Typically I get myself over the hump of “no betraying people bad!” is by reminding myself that we’ve all consented to being stabbed and to not play the game in good faith is bad mannered. The 6 other players are trying to play a game of Diplomacy and if I’m playing with them I need to play with them. If I don’t want to try to win but “want us all to win together” I need to play some other game. There are lots of other great games that suit that style of play much better. I’ve found it’s important to play games as they are, not try to make them something they’re not
1

GracchusBabeuf
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:13 pm

Re: Betrayal Blues

#34 Post by GracchusBabeuf » Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:28 pm

What are you lot on about?

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests