webdiplomacy.net

Got a question on the mod e-mail, interested what people thing about live streaming a game on Twitch. I guess this kind of assumes the Twitch stream goes under the radar:

I was thinking about options for my stream, and was just curious if livestreaming my own games across a platform such as Twitch violated rule #3 (Don't break game messaging/press rules) since if a player finds out they can theoretically use that information, altering the fairness of the game.

I personally don't mind being put at risk of such disadvantage, but I can understand that some players might not take too kindly to such an idea.

I think it'd be neat to see a livestreamed game on twitch, but if people came to know about it it'd be unfair .. tricky. I'd probably lean towards being cautious and saying no..

If it is a press game, I don't see the harm as long as twitch followers aren't suggesting moves. As good etiquette, they should probably mention to their fellow players that they are livestreaming.

For a gunboat game, it would be unfair. However, if they recorded it and released the footage after the game is over, that should be fine.

sweetandcool wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 21, 2023 5:23 am

If it is a press game, I don't see the harm as long as twitch followers aren't suggesting moves.

Why so? My first instinct is exactly the other way round. In a gunboat game there's no press to show, so no information leaks; in a press game the rule could be not to show private, one-to-one press (public press allowed).

Another concern may be anonimity, since everybody would know who is streaming, and probably also the country they are playing. So probably only non-anon games should be allowed.

gimix wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:07 am

sweetandcool wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 21, 2023 5:23 am

If it is a press game, I don't see the harm as long as twitch followers aren't suggesting moves.

Why so? My first instinct is exactly the other way round. In a gunboat game there's no press to show, so no information leaks; in a press game the rule could be not to show private, one-to-one press (public press allowed).

Another concern may be anonimity, since everybody would know who is streaming, and probably also the country they are playing. So probably only non-anon games should be allowed.

Anonymity is not a strict rule. In any anonymous game you are allowed to introduce yourself. You just potentially put yourself at a disadvantage if people know your playstyle and skill.

In press, you can copy and paste messages sent and show them to other players. However, I am now realizing that you have a good point there, since instead of pretending to quote another player you would have definitive proof of a message sent/received. So yeah, I guess public press only games would be okay.

In gunboat, information is precious and the ability to accurately predict what another player does (whether you are working together or against them) is a vital skill. If someone is streaming and you have access to their stream, then you would know what they are thinking and what they are planning, an unacceptable advantage.

Tricky .. but I think we're leaning to yes.. Maybe let's allow this and see if there are any issues

I've done this before I think

TBH it didn't even cross my mind it wouldn't be allowed

I guess if it only risks disadvantaging yourself it's fine, but if it could disadvantage your allies it could be trouble.. You can see how if you got stream sniped(?) playing Diplomacy you'll definitely affect the game more than Fall Guys or something

I didn't wanna sway the poll too much, but I had two perspectives to asking this question

One one hand, as with most games, stream-snipers provide a risk for imbalances. In my mind this doesn't really depend on the format of the game, as all information gained is bona-fide, and even just *hearing* the information said to myself while interpreting things by having it open provides a benefit.

However, in most games the onus of not breaking that depends upon the opponent and potential viewer. Especially in popular social deduction games

On the other hand, as much as I frame it to myself as a "disadvantage" (most viewers who stream-snipe are intending to undermine the streamer), it could potentially be an *advantage* (although this is less common) as they would now have credible information to king-make or be sure of allyship, as it is a credible source of information, especially, once again, in fast games.

So to pin the onus necessarily on the viewer/sniper doesn't factor in the potential benefits that I could gain from this "risk", and one *could* liken it to sending an email in a gunboat game and accusing the other person of cheating for opening it.

My personal thought process aligned with onus of cheating beind laid upon the sniper, but I wanted to ask because it seemed a grey area

kestasjk wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:51 am

Tricky .. but I think we're leaning to yes.. Maybe let's allow this and see if there are any issues

Two people posted valid concerns against it. Out of 10 votes, 2 said no and 3 said depends. What leads you to believe that we are leaning towards a yes?

And could we address gimix' and my concerns?

Namely, gimix is concerned with leaking private messages, presumably as a way of verifying correspondence, which can make form alliances easier for the streamer.

I am concerned about information leak for gunboat games, since being able to (inadvertently) circumvent the no press rule would be a major advantage, possibly for the streamer, definitely for other players.

This absolutely should not happen for gunboats. Being able to explain your intentions, tell your allies what you are thinking of the board, etc, is completely game breaking for gunboats. I would never play a gunboat match if there was a possibility someone could be streaming it and other players could be watching.

teccles wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:42 am

This absolutely should not happen for gunboats. Being able to explain your intentions, tell your allies what you are thinking of the board, etc, is completely game breaking for gunboats. I would never play a gunboat match if there was a possibility someone could be streaming it and other players could be watching.

See, I think it's even better for Gunboats, because you can provide detailed analysis of why you're doing it rather than worry about writing press.

IIRC we "livestreamed" a board at the Boston Massacre tournament several years ago. It was cumbersome, with one player controlling seven different bot accounts and entering moves, but effectively the same thing.

I think this is a great idea; gunboat, full press, public press, whatever. Diplomacy is a game that is highly enjoyable to watch. My initial thinking would be to have the players not actually participate in the stream but I could see this being successful with full commentary as well.

Chaqa wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 22, 2023 2:06 pm

teccles wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:42 am

This absolutely should not happen for gunboats. Being able to explain your intentions, tell your allies what you are thinking of the board, etc, is completely game breaking for gunboats. I would never play a gunboat match if there was a possibility someone could be streaming it and other players could be watching.

See, I think it's even better for Gunboats, because you can provide detailed analysis of why you're doing it rather than worry about writing press.

It might be fun, not arguing with that! But the entire point of gunboat is that the only way to communicate is with moves. You can't introduce commentary without entirely changing the game, and that's not what gunboat players are signing up for.

Simultaneous reveal of the moves makes Diplomacy what it is. It's a completely different game if you definitely know what other players are doing. That said, I entertain the possibility of allowing this for unranked games; they need not be taken so seriously.

I believe that arranging live streaming in way that doesn't affect play is doable, but I'm afraid that it requires a controlled environment, which the Internet isn't.

teccles wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:06 pm

Chaqa wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 22, 2023 2:06 pm

teccles wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:42 am

This absolutely should not happen for gunboats. Being able to explain your intentions, tell your allies what you are thinking of the board, etc, is completely game breaking for gunboats. I would never play a gunboat match if there was a possibility someone could be streaming it and other players could be watching.

See, I think it's even better for Gunboats, because you can provide detailed analysis of why you're doing it rather than worry about writing press.

It might be fun, not arguing with that! But the entire point of gunboat is that the only way to communicate is with moves. You can't introduce commentary without entirely changing the game, and that's not what gunboat players are signing up for.

I don't see it as any different than having a friend sanity-check your orders for a game. It's not necessarily like you'll have the other people in the game watching.

If you could somehow guarantee no-one in the game watched, that would be fine, yes.

sweetandcool wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:09 am

kestasjk wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:51 am

Tricky .. but I think we're leaning to yes.. Maybe let's allow this and see if there are any issues

Two people posted valid concerns against it. Out of 10 votes, 2 said no and 3 said depends. What leads you to believe that we are leaning towards a yes?

And could we address gimix' and my concerns?

Namely, gimix is concerned with leaking private messages, presumably as a way of verifying correspondence, which can make form alliances easier for the streamer.

I am concerned about information leak for gunboat games, since being able to (inadvertently) circumvent the no press rule would be a major advantage, possibly for the streamer, definitely for other players.

At the time the only no vote was mine, all the others were depends / yes, and the vote is leaning to yes. You and gimix raised valid concerns that can't really be addressed exactly, they're just reasonable concerns. This is why I'd say things aren't black and white, let's probably allow it and see if there are any issues as a result

kestasjk wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 23, 2023 1:00 am

sweetandcool wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:09 am

kestasjk wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:51 am

Tricky .. but I think we're leaning to yes.. Maybe let's allow this and see if there are any issues

Two people posted valid concerns against it. Out of 10 votes, 2 said no and 3 said depends. What leads you to believe that we are leaning towards a yes?

And could we address gimix' and my concerns?

Namely, gimix is concerned with leaking private messages, presumably as a way of verifying correspondence, which can make form alliances easier for the streamer.

I am concerned about information leak for gunboat games, since being able to (inadvertently) circumvent the no press rule would be a major advantage, possibly for the streamer, definitely for other players.

At the time the only no vote was mine, all the others were depends / yes, and the vote is leaning to yes. You and gimix raised valid concerns that can't really be addressed exactly, they're just reasonable concerns. This is why I'd say things aren't black and white, let's probably allow it and see if there are any issues as a result

Some things we don't need to allow to be able to see if any issues can result. It seems patently obvious that in gunboat, if any player views the stream, then the rules of the game will be violated. Several people in this thread have pointed that out.

Are you really intending to allow livestreams of gunboat games, and only stepping in to moderate them if you find out the rules get broken?

Please, no.

kestasjk wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 23, 2023 1:00 am

At the time the only no vote was mine, all the others were depends / yes, and the vote is leaning to yes. You and gimix raised valid concerns that can't really be addressed exactly, they're just reasonable concerns. This is why I'd say things aren't black and white, let's probably allow it and see if there are any issues as a result

On what "depends" can mean - mine means "not sure for press, probably OK, but super absolutely massively no for gunboat". And different people will be voting with different press restrictions in mind depending on what they play. So I'm not sure your poll will tell you much!

If you really are allowing this for gunboat, the site rules absolutely need changing:

"If you enter a game with limited press/messaging (such as global-only) then you can't use other methods such as the forum, email, or PM to bypass this."

And since that's going to seriously change the nature of limited press diplomacy on the site, it might be good to make people aware of that more systematically than a forum thread. I expect many gunboaters will want to take their play elsewhere, rather than worrying that their games will be ruined by this.