A New PPSC?

Members can make suggestions for improving the site and improving the forum as well as submit bug reports to be reviewed by our support team here.
Message
Author
captainmeme
Posts: 579
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:06 pm
Location: Manchester, UK
Karma: 686

A New PPSC?

#1 Post by captainmeme » Sat Sep 24, 2022 10:50 pm

TL;DR I'm proposing a scoring system called PPSC, which is scored as follows:
In a draw, each player gets N/34 of the pot, where N is their SC count.
In a solo, the winner gets the whole pot.


This system would provide a much more intuitive center-based system than SoS, which would be especially useful for less experienced players, or players who do not want to focus as much on score calculation.
4

captainmeme
Posts: 579
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:06 pm
Location: Manchester, UK
Karma: 686

Re: A New PPSC?

#2 Post by captainmeme » Sat Sep 24, 2022 10:50 pm

For those who don't know, webDiplomacy originally had two scoring systems - PPSC (Points Per Supply Center) and WTA (Winner Takes All). Both systems split the points evenly between survivors in the event of a draw, and in the event of a solo WTA would give all points to the victor, while PPSC would split the pot directly proportional to each player's SC count.

I believe the idea behind these systems was to have one mode which was newbie friendly, where they wouldn't lose all their points if they had a decent position but let someone else reach 18, and one system which was geared more towards experienced players, where everything would be lost if a solo was reached regardless of position.

The scoring systems on webdip were later reworked, with WTA being renamed to DSS, PPSC being removed, and two new scoring systems being added in - Unrated and Sum of Squares.

Unrated is exactly what it sounds like, no stakes, no reward. Play for fun and your final position doesn't matter for site points or GR.

SoS is a system which is a bit complicated to explain, but roughly:
- Gives all points to the victor if a player reaches 18
- In a draw, divides points out according to SC count, with larger powers receiving exponentially more than smaller powers, and with large powers receiving more points the more divided the opposition is.

SoS's introduction was a bit controversial for a few reasons, the main two being that a player could receive a huge payout without actually winning (if they got close and kept the opposition divided, they could get >75% of the pot) and that one- or two-center powers are usually rewarded with basically nothing for surviving to a draw. I'd add that it's also quite a complicated system to understand, and it's not usually obvious how your score will change by taking/losing SCs. Most people who play this scoring system competitively either use a scoring system calculator or play to the rough heuristics listed above.

I like playing Sum of Squares, and personally think the heuristics it provides are pretty good despite the downsides. However, when running the Blitz league, I've had a lot of new and new-to-webdip players playing, and something I've repeatedly noticed is that people don't have time/motivation to calculate their SoS score. Most people play with the goal of getting as many centers as they can, or surviving to a draw if they're in a bad spot.

That kind of play could be much more accurately represented by a scoring system that is just directly proportional to your SC count - thus why I'm pitching the scoring system in the first post here. It provides reasonable incentives, while being incredibly simple to pick up and understand for a new player.
1

captainmeme
Posts: 579
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:06 pm
Location: Manchester, UK
Karma: 686

Re: A New PPSC?

#3 Post by captainmeme » Sat Sep 24, 2022 10:55 pm

Quick note:

I think DSS is a perfect system for players who prefer an equal split on the draw, so nothing needs changing there. I know people like having back-and-forth over whether center-based or draw-based scoring is better, but that isn't really what this thread is about, so I'd prefer that discussion goes in another thread if it happens.

My point here is more that there needs to be a center-based system that's as easy to calculate as DSS is.

Sploack
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 7:58 pm
Karma: 29

Re: A New PPSC?

#4 Post by Sploack » Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:06 pm

I would be very favourable to the reintroduction od PPSC on Webdip, but I also like SoS. Would it be possible to have both as options on the site? (Blitz can change to PPSC, but if I want to create a random game I'd like to have the option of making it SoS scoring)

captainmeme
Posts: 579
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:06 pm
Location: Manchester, UK
Karma: 686

Re: A New PPSC?

#5 Post by captainmeme » Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:26 pm

I'd def love it if this was added while SoS remained as an option.

I should say, we'd probably keep running with SoS for a little while on Blitz anyway given it's integrated with the Nexus Live Press League. But the switch would eventually happen if PPSC got implemented here.

I should also clarify, this is not proposing reintroducing the old version of PPSC (even split on draws, center-based split on win). This is proposing a new PPSC with center-based split on draws, winner take all on win.
1

Theodoric
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:23 pm
Karma: 9

Re: A New PPSC?

#6 Post by Theodoric » Sun Sep 25, 2022 2:04 am

I fully support this. I think a ppsc with center-based split on draws, winner-take-all on wins would be superior to SoS in most cases and would provide a nice alternative to DSS.
1

French_boi
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2022 2:14 pm
Karma: 9

Re: A New PPSC?

#7 Post by French_boi » Sun Sep 25, 2022 2:14 am

This system sounds good! Easier to understand than SoS.
1

A_Tin_Can
Lifetime Site Contributor
Posts: 266
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:18 pm
Karma: 439

Re: A New PPSC?

#8 Post by A_Tin_Can » Sun Sep 25, 2022 1:01 pm

I like it, but I propose that it not be called "PPSC", since that used to mean something else.

DSS = Draw Size Scoring, so how about "SCS" for Supply Centre Scoring? Or DSCC for Draws by Supply Centre Count?
SoS's introduction was a bit controversial for a few reasons
For the record- there definitely was controversy at the time, but I don't recall either of those two reasons being part of it.

I do agree with your second and third points - small powers don't care if they live or die, and it's not obvious how changing the board will affect your score - these are both disadvantages of SoS.

I've heard people talk about the possibility of a large score if you keep everyone alive as an advantage - since SoS rewards divide-and-conquer instead of eliminations, it is supposed to lead to a better game.

I added SoS to webdip because I wanted to make it the best platform for practicing Diplomacy for the world championship, and at the time the WDC (and several other tournaments) were using it.

I considered adding other common scoring methods too, but the reason I didn't is that the data showed that more settings we have, the fewer games get started. This, coupled with the information that very few people were choosing to start PPSC games was the reason that the old PPSC was removed (resulting in cheers from the competitive people, and a lot of abuse from a couple of impassioned forum goers).

Personally I think it would be cool if:

a) We had your PPSC
b) Instead of SoS we had whatever WDC is using that year

Also, I wish I had named DSS "Rulebook". Or at least "DSS (Rulebook)", as the only thing the rulebook says about scoring is that one player wins, or if in a draw, everyone shares equally.

A_Tin_Can
Lifetime Site Contributor
Posts: 266
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:18 pm
Karma: 439

Re: A New PPSC?

#9 Post by A_Tin_Can » Sun Sep 25, 2022 1:08 pm

Also: I think the solution to the "fewer games when there are more options" problem is a game queue - it would be AWESOME if you could say "I want a new game, I'm happy with any of these options" and the system notified you when the game was starting. At the moment, you can find games that are starting, but only if they exist at the time that you're looking.

A game queue would be a significant rework of webdip's core code, though. I did design a different core to the site that would make that kind of extension much easier (and bring other improvements too) - but since I did that design in 2016, and only ever wrote an order parser, I guess I don't have the spare time to build it.
2

A_Tin_Can
Lifetime Site Contributor
Posts: 266
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:18 pm
Karma: 439

Re: A New PPSC?

#10 Post by A_Tin_Can » Sun Sep 25, 2022 1:16 pm

tl;dr: I like your system

Jamiet99uk
Posts: 22437
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:42 pm
Location: Durham, UK
Karma: 14604
Contact:

Re: A New PPSC?

#11 Post by Jamiet99uk » Sun Sep 25, 2022 4:55 pm

I like this.

Chaqa
Bronze Donator
Bronze Donator
Posts: 9771
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:33 pm
Location: Allentown, PA, USA
Karma: 6778

Re: A New PPSC?

#12 Post by Chaqa » Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:38 pm

It's not April 1, meme.

Chaqa
Bronze Donator
Bronze Donator
Posts: 9771
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:33 pm
Location: Allentown, PA, USA
Karma: 6778

Re: A New PPSC?

#13 Post by Chaqa » Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:41 pm

In case this *is* serious: admittedly I don't play a lot of Diplomacy anymore, but PPSC was really awful and the community rightly disliked it. Too many PPSC games were ruined by janissary tactics and people helping others solo.

captainmeme
Posts: 579
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:06 pm
Location: Manchester, UK
Karma: 686

Re: A New PPSC?

#14 Post by captainmeme » Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:04 pm

@Chaqa
captainmeme wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:26 pm
I should also clarify, this is not proposing reintroducing the old version of PPSC (even split on draws, center-based split on win). This is proposing a new PPSC with center-based split on draws, winner take all on win.

captainmeme
Posts: 579
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:06 pm
Location: Manchester, UK
Karma: 686

Re: A New PPSC?

#15 Post by captainmeme » Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:09 pm

@ATC

Def get the concern with calling it PPSC again when it's not the same, but I'd also be a bit wary of calling it SCS or DSCC because of how close the acronyms are to currently implemented scoring systems. Especially considering old PPSC is shown ingame as SWS now, so we'd have SWS, SOS and SCS - I think that's a little confusing :D

Ideally a new acronym would start with a letter that isn't P, S or D. Center-Proportional Scoring (CPS) maybe?

captainmeme
Posts: 579
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:06 pm
Location: Manchester, UK
Karma: 686

Re: A New PPSC?

#16 Post by captainmeme » Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:14 pm

And re: WDC, completely agree that it would be nice to align with the FtF community. There ends up being two problems there though:

1) FtF scoring systems are often not zero-sum, whereas webdip's has to be (and modifying to scale to zero-sum significantly changes the incentives)
2) WDC is held in a different place by different people every year, and the scoring tends to change significantly alongside that.

Virtual Face to Face has a consistent scoring system for the world championship - Classic Scoring, which is 30 points for survival + 10 points per SC + 48 points split between boardtoppers, or all points to the victor if there's a solo. But that isn't zero sum. The proposed system in this thread is quite close, though.

Chaqa
Bronze Donator
Bronze Donator
Posts: 9771
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:33 pm
Location: Allentown, PA, USA
Karma: 6778

Re: A New PPSC?

#17 Post by Chaqa » Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:58 pm

captainmeme wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:04 pm
@Chaqa
captainmeme wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:26 pm
I should also clarify, this is not proposing reintroducing the old version of PPSC (even split on draws, center-based split on win). This is proposing a new PPSC with center-based split on draws, winner take all on win.
Ah, I misread. I still disagree with PPSC on principle, due to the game IMO being about winning, and any draw being a failure to win. The rules are clear on draw rules, but I still feel like a win should mean you get all "points" or such.

Often times if I know I won't solo, I will do anything to draw, often to the detriment of my SC count. If the scoring rules are changed, people will be juggling for SCs more than trying to win or stop a win, no?

I will say I don't know much about F2F or WDC stuff. When I found out they artificially shorten games I noped out

A_Tin_Can
Lifetime Site Contributor
Posts: 266
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:18 pm
Karma: 439

Re: A New PPSC?

#18 Post by A_Tin_Can » Mon Sep 26, 2022 3:24 pm

^ I think Chaqa's reaction clearly illustrates what's good about not calling it PPSC
4

Sploack
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 7:58 pm
Karma: 29

Re: A New PPSC?

#19 Post by Sploack » Mon Sep 26, 2022 3:24 pm

I propose BCS (better center scoring) as abbreviation.
And that is absolutely not because I am a Better Call Saul fan, total coincidence.

Doom427
Posts: 756
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:54 am
Karma: 1064

Re: A New PPSC?

#20 Post by Doom427 » Mon Sep 26, 2022 3:31 pm

Why not SOtSoS for Simpler Option than Square of Sums?
4

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest