Proposed change

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Durga
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Proposed change

#1 Post by Durga » Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:54 am

Make the default draw setting hidden draw votes. New members who make games wonder why draw votes are open, it is better to have the default be the more sensible option.
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A_Tin_Can
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Re: Proposed change

#2 Post by A_Tin_Can » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:21 pm

Do they?
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Durga
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Re: Proposed change

#3 Post by Durga » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:47 pm

A_Tin_Can wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:21 pm
Do they?
Yes. Pls switch.

jmo1121109
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Re: Proposed change

#4 Post by jmo1121109 » Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:30 am

From a ease of online play, some settings are intentionally different from face to face play. These include phase lengths, draw votes being public, WTA being the default scoring system, and messaging being allowed during all phases. The reasons for this being that the bulk of players on the site were not previously familiar with the game and it's rules. So from an ease of use standpoint the default settings in place are aimed to make the game as easy to understand and utilize as possible.

But since we also want to accommodate the F2F lobby, all those settings are options when making the game.

Any setting that masks information tends to cause confusion among new players so we'd need a pretty convincing logistics reason to update the defaults.
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Jamiet99uk
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Re: Bringing back PPSC

#5 Post by Jamiet99uk » Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:35 am

What is the problem with draw votes not being hidden by default, Durga?

Durga
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Re: Proposed change

#6 Post by Durga » Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:46 am

jmo1121109 wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:30 am
From a ease of online play, some settings are intentionally different from face to face play. These include phase lengths, draw votes being public, WTA being the default scoring system, and messaging being allowed during all phases. The reasons for this being that the bulk of players on the site were not previously familiar with the game and it's rules. So from an ease of use standpoint the default settings in place are aimed to make the game as easy to understand and utilize as possible.

But since we also want to accommodate the F2F lobby, all those settings are options when making the game.

Any setting that masks information tends to cause confusion among new players so we'd need a pretty convincing logistics reason to update the defaults.
This is a silly excuse. And if this is your POV you should have kept PPSC scoring. I'm not saying don't keep things that are easy, and I'm not saying to change all the settings to accomodate f2f players (ie, I'm NOT in favour of rulebook press being the default). I just think not having hidden draw votes is ridiculous in all forms of play. And there is no basis to say that open draw votes is easier to understand than hidden draw votes. If people are more confused by "hidden" draw votes, they're too stupid to be playing this game.

Why don't you hold a vote to see what the more popular option is?

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Re: Proposed change

#7 Post by Jamiet99uk » Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:54 am

Durga wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:46 am
You should have kept PPSC scoring.
Well said!
Durga wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:46 am
Why don't you hold a vote to see what the more popular option is?
Would we use hidden votes?
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jmo1121109
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Re: Proposed change

#8 Post by jmo1121109 » Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:11 am

Durga wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:46 am
This is a silly excuse. And if this is your POV you should have kept PPSC scoring. I'm not saying don't keep things that are easy, and I'm not saying to change all the settings to accomodate f2f players (ie, I'm NOT in favour of rulebook press being the default). I just think not having hidden draw votes is ridiculous in all forms of play. And there is no basis to say that open draw votes is easier to understand than hidden draw votes. If people are more confused by "hidden" draw votes, they're too stupid to be playing this game.

Why don't you hold a vote to see what the more popular option is?
2 points on that.
1. I argued more then just about anyone against removing PPSC.
2. WTA is an easier mathematical equation for people to understand. You win you get everything, you draw you points/# in the draw. So there's less questions on the forum and to the mods about how the points worked out how they did. PPSC regularly caused confusion, specifically around why someone winning with 19 or 20 centers only got points for 18 of them. And variations thereof. Myself and the other mods would answer PPSC breakdown questions once a month at least on the forum and more consistently via email when it was the default. I cannot remember the last time someone didn't understand the point payout for WTA. So while it's not my favorite and I didn't agree with the change, it does make it easier on everyone.

The same logic applies to hidden draw votes. And the problem comes in when a few people are left and everyone says in global "I'm voting draw", and then the mods get questions asking if the game is broken, is it okay to lie about draws, is it okay to send other people screenshots of my draw vote, or demand them in return. All of those questions have already arisen with just the introduction of the feature, so I know they'd increase dramatically if it was made the default.

The reason I won't hold a vote is the same as why we rarely vote on anything. The forum is used by under 10% of active players. So a vote isn't really representative of people's preferences. Even the most popular threads each year, Zultar's giveaways, only draw in a max of ~20% of the active player base.

We're more then happy to consider any changes to defaults that people propose, we just have to have a very convincing reason as to why the change is the better option.
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Durga
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Re: Proposed change

#9 Post by Durga » Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:34 am

So you just don't want to do anything because you might get one or two emails from people who can hardly navigate a website. Okay. Noted.

Also, 10 percent of active players is better than none. But you go ahead keep your broken archaic rules up.
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bozotheclown
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Re: Proposed change

#10 Post by bozotheclown » Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:37 am

Why are hidden draw votes considered better than non-hidden draw votes?

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Re: Proposed change

#11 Post by Durga » Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:41 am

bozotheclown wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:37 am
Why are hidden draw votes considered better than non-hidden draw votes?
End game in non-hdv tends to be just targetting the person who doesn't have their draw vote up. Which, frankly, should just not be allowed.

Wusti
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Re: Proposed change

#12 Post by Wusti » Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:43 am

Durga - your opinion only. Last time i checked this site never claimed to be a democracy either. I prefer Open Draw votes as the default. See? Opinions are just like assholes - everyone has one. Why should yours carry more weight?
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Durga
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Re: Proposed change

#13 Post by Durga » Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:47 am

Wusti wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:43 am
Durga - your opinion only. Last time i checked this site never claimed to be a democracy either. I prefer Open Draw votes as the default. See? Opinions are just like assholes - everyone has one. Why should yours carry more weight?
Fair enough, why do you prefer open draw votes as a default? I think for most people who play diplomacy it seems fairly silly to allow people to publicly display their commitment to the draw. You can't manipulate people in end game if everyone but you is voting draw.

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Re: Proposed change

#14 Post by bozotheclown » Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:47 am

Durga wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:41 am
bozotheclown wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:37 am
Why are hidden draw votes considered better than non-hidden draw votes?
End game in non-hdv tends to be just targetting the person who doesn't have their draw vote up. Which, frankly, should just not be allowed.
Usually the one refusing to draw is the one who think he can solo and is therefore justifiably targeted.

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Re: Proposed change

#15 Post by Durga » Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:49 am

bozotheclown wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:47 am
Durga wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:41 am
bozotheclown wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:37 am
Why are hidden draw votes considered better than non-hidden draw votes?
End game in non-hdv tends to be just targetting the person who doesn't have their draw vote up. Which, frankly, should just not be allowed.
Usually the one refusing to draw is the one who think he can solo and is therefore justifiably targeted.
See that's just... Not how this should work.

jmo1121109
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Re: Proposed change

#16 Post by jmo1121109 » Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:31 am

Durga wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:34 am
So you just don't want to do anything because you might get one or two emails from people who can hardly navigate a website. Okay. Noted.

Also, 10 percent of active players is better than none. But you go ahead keep your broken archaic rules up.
No, the team already gets 1 or 2 emails when a very small majority of games are set to that mode. Increase the number of games to near 100% (since most people do not alter the default settings) and that number would go up significantly. And while you may be fine wishing to ignore those on the site who aren't technologically savvy that would be an idiotic choice for the site owners to make. Websites will always aim to make everything as easy as possible for users unless a good reason is provided to not do so. And there's no need to be insulting/rude about that.

Durga
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Re: Proposed change

#17 Post by Durga » Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:59 am

Are you even on the mod team?

jmo1121109
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Re: Proposed change

#18 Post by jmo1121109 » Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:21 am

I am the only active developer. Though A_Tin_Can does occasional work too and the Feedback/Bug Reports section of the forum was created for the devs. So I'm the correct person to discuss proposed changes with, yes.

bozotheclown
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Re: Proposed change

#19 Post by bozotheclown » Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:36 am

Durga wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:49 am
bozotheclown wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:47 am
Durga wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:41 am


End game in non-hdv tends to be just targetting the person who doesn't have their draw vote up. Which, frankly, should just not be allowed.
Usually the one refusing to draw is the one who think he can solo and is therefore justifiably targeted.
See that's just... Not how this should work.
Why not? Someone close to a solo should be targeted to prevent the solo. Besides, lying about whether you have voted for a draw is not traditionally part of the game.

Yigg
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Re: Proposed change

#20 Post by Yigg » Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:16 am

Durga wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:46 am
If people are more confused by "hidden" draw votes, they're too stupid to be playing this game.
Look, I don't much care what a game's default setting is. It's a minor detail in the grand scheme of things. But, Durga, I think you're out of line with this comment. If the goal is to attract more players to the game, as I've been led to believe, then suggesting that new players are too stupid to be playing it hardly helps.
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