2018 WC Public Press EoG Discussion

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Yigg
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2018 WC Public Press EoG Discussion

#1 Post by Yigg » Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:45 am

Hello. My name is Yigg, and I was what has been referred to as "Old France" in the 2018 WC Public Press Championship game. I was subbed out for jmo due to some pretty heavy life stuff. I had wanted to be a part of the End of Game discussion, so I was given permission by the TD to create this Forum post to that end.

I just wanted to start by saying that, regardless of how everything turned out and the controversy that came from it, my time in this game has been the single most exciting game of Diplomacy I've played in a VERY long time. It was an honor to play with the other six of you, and would do so again without a second thought.

Balki suggested that he would enjoy a conversation about the game with the original players, and I would enjoy that, too. I have a healthy respect for his game, and would love to get his insight. Specifically, I was hoping to look at the Winter builds in 1905. It was there that I built fMar, and telegraphed my intent (despite my feeble press to convince otherwise) to move into the Med to challenge the Italian presence there. In the press, Italy (Balki) said I made my move to run for a solo too soon. I had always thought that saying so was a press attempt to rally every against me (and rightfully so). But if you were in my shoes, I'm curious to know how you would have acted differently. If you would have waited a year or two and fully completed the attack on Germany.

This is by no means all I'd want to talk about! But I thought it might be a good enough point to start, assuming the rest of you are game.

Cheers,
Yigg / "Old France"
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Re: 2018 WC Public Press EoG Discussion

#2 Post by Durga » Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:01 pm

Best public press play 2k18 right here
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Re: 2018 WC Public Press EoG Discussion

#3 Post by peterwiggin » Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:14 pm

It makes me sad that people only want to argue about metagaming instead of discussing the game with Yigg.
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Re: 2018 WC Public Press EoG Discussion

#4 Post by Dejan0707 » Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:16 pm

I was not part of that game so maybe it would be better not to comment, but I will share my view as someone looking from the outside of the game.

I feel fleet Brest would be superior choice to make on Autumn 1905. It is never good thing to signal your intentions too soon, and so long as you keep your plans in murky waters you are increasing your chances of sucess. Other benefit is that I prefer having attacking unit at mao rather then at Tyrhenian sea. It is more flexible and less predictable.
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Re: 2018 WC Public Press EoG Discussion

#5 Post by Yigg » Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:40 am

@Dejan0707 I had thought of that, and honestly I've second guessed the build with that very alternative. I didn't want to signal that intention so soon, and the flexibility would have been just as good. But in the end, I decided to go with being direct. I believe it cost me the rallying ability I might have had with Russia, the only other person I might have been able to have as an ally going forward (though I'm not sure if I could have pulled off that diplomatic coup). But I also thought that unless I put that build there, Italy would have absorbed more of Turkey than Russia and put me at a unit disadvantage there. My thought being the longer Turkey lived, the better a solo shot I had. I'm still not sure if it was the right call at the time, even knowing that the game ended in a solo win.

Thanks for sharing the thought, though! I appreciate it. :)

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Re: 2018 WC Public Press EoG Discussion

#6 Post by VillageIdiot » Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:23 am

You played a hell of a game Yigg and a real shame you weren't able to see it through as well as a pity your thunder is getting stolen by the late/post-game contention.

While it's hard to truly speculate if things would have turned out the same had you kept the reigns, but you did a fantastic job getting yourself into solo's reach and i liked (or rather i suppose disliked) your chances. You navigated yourself tactfully and diplomatically extremely well amongst some pretty fierce sharks and showed great strategic patience even during some noticeably strong adversaries had their necks exposed . Really good long game vision.

I think the ultimate downfall for the other players was a combination of over-committing resources towards Turkey's elimination past the point of the solo risk becoming critical (especially given Turkey displayed a willingness to be a team-player to stop it) along with Germany's over-valuing his survivor status over solo avoidance. Survival was a long-shot for him regardless while stopping the solo likely would have significantly benefitted his team. Real opportunities were missed to stop the solo, but unfortunately the reality is the nature of Public Press makes meaningful collaboration and alliance unified understanding extremely difficult.
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Re: 2018 WC Public Press EoG Discussion

#7 Post by Yigg » Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:53 pm

That means a lot to me, VI. Thank you!

I totally agree with your downfall assessment. Italy and Russia's over-committing to taking Turkish centers (and I think especially Russia) was a contributing factor. By not having any northern fleets, it made the loss of St.P an eventuality and a critical stopping point for a French solo. And Germany's throw to get Italy to attack went on about a turn too long, yes. But I also think it wasn't as effective as he'd hoped. Italy didn't turn on me, I turned on him. And I was able to do that with those thrown German builds. So it got him his desired result, but not in the way that would have been most effective in stopping France.

And I absolutely had the tactical advantage of having to coordinate with no one while the anti-France coalition needed to publicly do so in order to work. I think that was even said in press a few times. That very issue led to a couple of instances that my successor took advantage of, which I believe put the solo attempt over the top.
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Re: 2018 WC Public Press EoG Discussion

#8 Post by DrCJG » Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:02 pm

Well played, Yigg.

I hope to get a chance to add to the substantive discussion soon and before the game is completely stale.

But quickly...

The German blitz for survival seemed early to me, I would really like to think that through some more.

I liked (from Russian perspective) the 1905 build in Brest... I too was a little worried about Italy getting too much of Turkey and I felt safer with more tension between you and Italy... even then you could have swayed me.

I'm still not convinced that I over committed to Turkey's elimination and would be happy to debate the topic... given the result, perhaps I put too much faith in being able to communicate in public press... I think there were several ways to still hold the solo line while eliminating Turkey but I got outplayed Autumn 1907 and Balki and I completely missed each other Spring 1908... but I still think the critical mistake was autumn 1906's loss of MUN.
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Re: 2018 WC Public Press EoG Discussion

#9 Post by foodcoats » Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:21 pm

Can you share a link to the game? I'd love to see it.
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Re: 2018 WC Public Press EoG Discussion

#11 Post by Balki Bartokomous » Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:50 pm

Yigg,

Thanks very much for beginning this discussion. And let me say at the outset that it was an absolute pleasure to play with you. I completely agree that this was a top quality game and a joy to play. I felt that way right up until the moment you left it. Clever press, challenging and surprising moves, complicated board dynamics. I was having a lot of fun.

I'll also note at the start that you played an excellent game. You were very good at making me (and others) feel like you were on our side, while not offending anyone else. That's not easy at all in a public press game. You managed to seize a clear board-dominating position while staying mostly in everyone's good graces, which is a great accomplishment in any game. Also, your Belgium deal with Germany in 1901 was nothing short of brilliant. That was a major turning point that put you in a position to dominate the West. Your fast start was self-made.

Regarding your specific question, it's a bit difficult to answer in retrospect. I had a lot of things in my head in that moment, and I'm trying to sort them out. Clearly, as we can all see what the outcome of the game was, your move turned out well. And so it is hard to find much fault with it.

But your question is more about what I would do if I were in your shoes there. I am quite certain I would not have built F Mar. At that time, you had turned on Germany, but Germany had not yet disbanded all his western forces (a move that shocked me at the time, and that I would not have predicted in your shoes). I see your reasoning in wanting to keep me from taking out Turkey, but you only had 9 centers at that point, and no other potential ally. When I was telling you that I thought your solo move was way premature, I meant that sincerely. I believed that it was.

You made tons of smart decisions in the game, but I think you had a bit of luck when your stab of me happened to coincide with Germany disbanding his 3 western-most units.

So, were I in your shoes, I would have made a decision to stab Germany or Italy, and I would have been pretty committed to work with the other guy, trying to ensure that "the other guy" would stick with me and commit forces elsewhere. There were a few times in the game that I thought you might stab me, but that time was not it (and you didn't really get the benefit of a surprise because you did it on a build phase).

All that said, France ended up with a solo. So, the fact that I would have played that move differently may just reveal me to be the lesser player.
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Re: 2018 WC Public Press EoG Discussion

#12 Post by Yigg » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:02 am

DrCJG wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:02 pm
Well played, Yigg.

I hope to get a chance to add to the substantive discussion soon and before the game is completely stale.
Thanks, man! I thought your game was well played also! Your press was always awesome! :)
The German blitz for survival seemed early to me, I would really like to think that through some more.
I generally agree with you on this, even though I benefited. I don't think I would have had the conviction to see that throw through like Germany did. If I were him, I probably would have thrown myself at Russian mercy to fight France. The result of that would have been...I'm not sure. Maybe to Italy's benefit in the long run? Russia's? I'm not sure. But Germany's position after my stab wasn't ideal, that's for sure. A path to success in his shoes still puzzles me.
I liked (from Russian perspective) the 1905 build in Brest... I too was a little worried about Italy getting too much of Turkey and I felt safer with more tension between you and Italy... even then you could have swayed me.
I could have swayed you? Oh man! I feel like I might not have tried hard enough!
I'm still not convinced that I over committed to Turkey's elimination and would be happy to debate the topic... given the result, perhaps I put too much faith in being able to communicate in public press... I think there were several ways to still hold the solo line while eliminating Turkey but I got outplayed Autumn 1907 and Balki and I completely missed each other Spring 1908... but I still think the critical mistake was autumn 1906's loss of MUN.
The autumn 1906 loss of Munich was pretty critical, yeah. It's one of those 3 centers (along with Tunis and St.P) that a solo out of France absolutely needed. And the two army builds that followed allowed me/Jmo to brick up that center.

And the over commit to Turkey I think seemed necessary, from your perspective. You needed builds, and where else were you going to get them from? What REALLY hurt was Germany taking St.P in retreat, though. To keep St.P, you needed a fleet build to put there, and that retreat pretty much sealed that deal.
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Re: 2018 WC Public Press EoG Discussion

#13 Post by VillageIdiot » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:19 am

I'm not convinced that Turkey's elimination was that necessary at the time. The other questionable decision was the Germany destroy in Berlin and keeping Finland at end of 1906. Suppose it could have worked at well had that German North Sea fleet been kept but ultimately it was tremendously problematic.

What was the thinking there?

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Re: 2018 WC Public Press EoG Discussion

#14 Post by Yigg » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:48 am

Balki Bartokomous wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:50 pm
Yigg,

Thanks very much for beginning this discussion. And let me say at the outset that it was an absolute pleasure to play with you. I completely agree that this was a top quality game and a joy to play. I felt that way right up until the moment you left it. Clever press, challenging and surprising moves, complicated board dynamics. I was having a lot of fun.
I had a TON of fun playing with you, too! For the record, I would play a game with you again in a heartbeat (along with everyone else, too!). And thank you for your compliments. I got to see you in action live in DC, and to get a chance to cross sabers with you is a chance in a lifetime! I have a TON of respect for you and your game, and your words mean the world to me.
I'll also note at the start that you played an excellent game. You were very good at making me (and others) feel like you were on our side, while not offending anyone else. That's not easy at all in a public press game. You managed to seize a clear board-dominating position while staying mostly in everyone's good graces, which is a great accomplishment in any game. Also, your Belgium deal with Germany in 1901 was nothing short of brilliant. That was a major turning point that put you in a position to dominate the West. Your fast start was self-made.
I had a hard time reconciling how to open, especially in Public Press. Germany's first year press impressed me, and something about England's didn't sit right with me. Plus, those two started getting into it pretty quickly. I figured I'd be courted like the belle of the ball, so I came up with a plan to sell Germany on an alliance, and it worked. But I needed my press with you to be rock solid, though. And that worked amazingly! I still brag about our unspoken press game. Which deserves some more conversation, too! :)
Regarding your specific question, it's a bit difficult to answer in retrospect. I had a lot of things in my head in that moment, and I'm trying to sort them out. Clearly, as we can all see what the outcome of the game was, your move turned out well. And so it is hard to find much fault with it.

But your question is more about what I would do if I were in your shoes there. I am quite certain I would not have built F Mar. At that time, you had turned on Germany, but Germany had not yet disbanded all his western forces (a move that shocked me at the time, and that I would not have predicted in your shoes). I see your reasoning in wanting to keep me from taking out Turkey, but you only had 9 centers at that point, and no other potential ally. When I was telling you that I thought your solo move was way premature, I meant that sincerely. I believed that it was.

You made tons of smart decisions in the game, but I think you had a bit of luck when your stab of me happened to coincide with Germany disbanding his 3 western-most units.

So, were I in your shoes, I would have made a decision to stab Germany or Italy, and I would have been pretty committed to work with the other guy, trying to ensure that "the other guy" would stick with me and commit forces elsewhere. There were a few times in the game that I thought you might stab me, but that time was not it (and you didn't really get the benefit of a surprise because you did it on a build phase).
To be honest, something about Germany's press during the middle of his throw made me think that he was crazy into it. I wasn't SURE he would disband like he did, but I definitely thought it was on the table. So I thought I would gamble. It was SUPER risky, and I was chewing my fingernails off freaking out as the timer ticked down. If I was wrong, my press would have had to go Super Saiyan to fix it. But if I was right, I'd have gotten a jump on locking down the western med, and at an outside shot on a solo attempt. I normally play things far safer than that. But my wins are so rare that they might as well be nonexistent and I figured I needed to operate a little out of my comfort zone to try and pull off something risky. I second guessed that build and changed it out and back about 100 times. And, aside from tactic and strategy, I really enjoyed our crazy silent partnership. I felt like a sobbing little boy having to take Old Yeller out behind the shed. I agonized over it.

So you're absolutely right in that I got lucky as hell with Germany's disbands! If he does ANYTHING different, the solo attempt never happens and the fight for even a draw is a tough one. I really want to see the alternate timeline where I build fBre instead and Germany didn't throw like that.
All that said, France ended up with a solo. So, the fact that I would have played that move differently may just reveal me to be the lesser player.
I TOTALLY disagree with this. Dude, there's no measure I can find makes this even close to being accurate. This one game doesn't mean that at all. All it means I put in some good work, got super lucky, and had caring support from an awesome team. The reason I asked how you would play it is to see what someone whose game I deeply respect would have done in my shoes. To learn. For me, that was my most pivotal moment in the game. And it means a lot to me to know what an expert player (you) would do in that moment of choice like that. So you take back that "lesser player" comment! :)
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Re: 2018 WC Public Press EoG Discussion

#15 Post by Yigg » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:53 am

VillageIdiot wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:19 am
I'm not convinced that Turkey's elimination was that necessary at the time. The other questionable decision was the Germany destroy in Berlin and keeping Finland at end of 1906. Suppose it could have worked at well had that German North Sea fleet been kept but ultimately it was tremendously problematic.

What was the thinking there?
Yeah, I'm not sure about that one, myself. I don't know if that was to open up a lane for Russia to occupy Germany proper and thwart the French move into Scandinavia? I'm not sure. I'd LOVE for Germany to get in on this conversation, too.

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Re: 2018 WC Public Press EoG Discussion

#16 Post by Halt » Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:26 am

Yigg wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:02 am
The German blitz for survival seemed early to me, I would really like to think that through some more.
On hindsight, I probably agree that my moves were wrong.

1) At the time, I was motivated by not having too much time to think of the game IRL and so decided that this was the quickest solution.
2) In my own estimation, trying to hold the line somehow would end up with me being killed at the end of the game as France and Russia worked together to lessen the draw.
3) I was interested in seeing how a game like this would play out and I suppose was influenced a bit in a "try it for science" sort of way. A strategy of forcing a draw and getting a survive by "throwing" might still be feasible, but probably requires a lot more fine tuning before being even close to practical. Ultimately, my key takeaway from this exercise is that the initiator of such a strategy needs to remain in control of the board's development, something I sacrificed way too early when committing to this.
Yigg wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:02 am
And the over commit to Turkey I think seemed necessary, from your perspective. You needed builds, and where else were you going to get them from? What REALLY hurt was Germany taking St.P in retreat, though. To keep St.P, you needed a fleet build to put there, and that retreat pretty much sealed that deal.
This was motivated by the disaster of 1907 which would have left me with no builds. Perhaps keeping the North Sea Fleet might have been the better move and I debated with myself heavily when deciding the disband, but was unsure if such a thing would utterly kill any chance I had at a theoretical draw.
VillageIdiot wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:19 am
I'm not convinced that Turkey's elimination was that necessary at the time. The other questionable decision was the Germany destroy in Berlin and keeping Finland at end of 1906. Suppose it could have worked at well had that German North Sea fleet been kept but ultimately it was tremendously problematic.

What was the thinking there?
If I recall correctly, the idea was to achieve local numerical superiority in the Scandinavian front and from that pivot, destabilize France's push into central Europe.

One of the biggest weaknesses of coalitions in public press is that the need to communicate in order to coordinate leaves any such coordination functionally meaningless. Either the press is clear enough that the opponent can work it out, hence unless the plans cannot be stopped by any possible move order, it can be easily countered. Or the press is vague enough that coordination fails.

The solution to this was to limit the need for coordination as much as possible. In that regard, I decided that having "spheres of influence" would be the way forward, with Russia solely in charge of the Berlin-Munich front, myself in Scandinavia, Italy in the south.

That we were so outguessed by France in the disaster of 1907 stumped me and was worse than even my worst case scenarios for that year. After it happened, I was fairly convinced the game was lost.

France has mentioned part of his ability to do so was from our press conversation, and I think that's a fair assumption to make. I had significant doubts about Italy's plans, as they were discussed openly, hence already compromised. But it was also a time when Italy / Russia seemed to have doubts over my commitment to the cause, and I was unsure if I could afford to ignore their advice from a diplomatic perspective. It was a large mistake, I think perhaps my largest this game.
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Re: 2018 WC Public Press EoG Discussion

#17 Post by goldfinger0303 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:12 am

As a note on coordination against a solo in PP, I happen to have quite a bit of experience in that. And I'm surprised that you all were not able to coordinate better.

What I found to work well in my experience is talking about moves in percentages. 50/50 you'll do move A vs move B. And you will expect your moves to succeed 50% of the time, because not only does your ally have to guess what you're going to do, but your opponent as well. And while 50% might not sound great, its certainly better than the alternative of your opponent reading all your press and coming up with a counter, or just straight gunboating it. This is more a point on tactics rather than strategy, of course. Strategy (such as which stalemate line you're going to set) you should really be upfront about.
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Re: 2018 WC Public Press EoG Discussion

#18 Post by Dejan0707 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:42 am

I always admired good public press players...from 3 main types of dip games PP is for sure the hardest to master.
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Re: 2018 WC Public Press EoG Discussion

#19 Post by VillageIdiot » Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:17 am

I'd be remiss if i didn't give a tip to the hat to slypup for one of the most creative and clever means of slipping a message under the radar back in a PP game. This occured back in Autumn 1901.

"@Italy - you don't have to say everything. Now under bad circumstances, I won't risk getting 0 SCs here and I think that alone shows my understanding. If you had Pestered me more, I'd embrace your plan here. But now, I could be hung out to dry. You chose to do this very secretively - unfortunately, too secretively for your own good, Albeit you support your intentions to Great effect with Serious good intent, you ask me to risk too much at this particular moment in time."

"@Italy - I believe I've made my intent clear now and hope to see you capitalize on it properly.


Intention of course was an unexpected reconciliation with Italy and a request for Italy to use Albania to support Serbia to Greece. Never quite caught on what the "Pestered" part was about, best guess was he wanted them to continue feigning frustration with each other. I thought these two could have made an awesome team had they kept together. I can't really speak for Balki too much, but i don't think his intentions were quite as malicious towards slypup as he had believed.
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Re: 2018 WC Public Press EoG Discussion

#20 Post by The Hanged Man » Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:14 am

That's beautiful.
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