When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

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Expand view Topic review: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

by Jamiet99uk » Sun Jul 17, 2022 11:27 pm

Fluminator wrote: ↑
Sun Jul 17, 2022 10:12 pm
Octavious wrote: ↑
Sat Jul 16, 2022 8:11 pm
 Most men do fine, Fluminator. Although if you have anything to confess by all means do so. It's good for the soul.
No I've become a virgin so I'm not part of the problem.
I can assure you that some virgins are part of the problem.

Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

by Fluminator » Sun Jul 17, 2022 10:12 pm

Octavious wrote: ↑
Sat Jul 16, 2022 8:11 pm
 Most men do fine, Fluminator. Although if you have anything to confess by all means do so. It's good for the soul.
No I've become a virgin so I'm not part of the problem.

Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

by Octavious » Sun Jul 17, 2022 7:01 pm

orathaic wrote: ↑
Sun Jul 17, 2022 2:50 pm
 I clearly did answer. Try reading what i wrote.
You clearly did no such thing
orathaic wrote: ↑
Sun Jul 17, 2022 2:50 pm
 Shocking how your bias only applies to women almost as if you are just being a misogynist.
Ah, retreating to petty insults I see. Quite how you're justifying this particular leap I have no idea. When in doubt hide behind your familiar tropes

Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

by orathaic » Sun Jul 17, 2022 2:50 pm

Octavious wrote: ↑
Sat Jul 16, 2022 4:43 pm
orathaic wrote: ↑
Sat Jul 16, 2022 3:51 pm
 Just in case you honestly can't math.

30% of abortions is not 30% of people using contraception.
No attempt at an answer? Fine. If you can't be arsed to explain your position then I guess the discussion is over. I honestly have no idea what you wanted to get out of this. If you don't want the conversation the best way to go about it is simply not to start it.
I clearly did answer. Try reading what i wrote.
Most men do fine, Fluminator. Although if you have anything to confess by all means do so. It's good for the soul.


Shocking how your bias only applies to women almost as if you are just being a misogynist.

Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

by Octavious » Sat Jul 16, 2022 8:11 pm

Most men do fine, Fluminator. Although if you have anything to confess by all means do so. It's good for the soul.

As with all things, decent people are decent and scummy people are scummy. Whether or not they are men is immaterial, aside from the fact that scummy men have more opportunity to be scummy for logistical reasons

Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

by Fluminator » Sat Jul 16, 2022 6:57 pm

I am going to say, I think men specifically who sleep around and create embryos, fetuses, babies, whatever you call it in the womb without worry of what happens to it, are very irresponsible and literally treat life like garbage. I know you're horny, but assuming the new life you create is important, maybe put more effort into safe sex?

Men should do better.

Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

by Octavious » Sat Jul 16, 2022 4:43 pm

orathaic wrote: ↑
Sat Jul 16, 2022 3:51 pm
 Just in case you honestly can't math.

30% of abortions is not 30% of people using contraception.
No attempt at an answer? Fine. If you can't be arsed to explain your position then I guess the discussion is over. I honestly have no idea what you wanted to get out of this. If you don't want the conversation the best way to go about it is simply not to start it.

Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

by orathaic » Sat Jul 16, 2022 3:51 pm

Just in case you honestly can't math.

30% of abortions is not 30% of people using contraception.

Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

by Octavious » Thu Jul 14, 2022 10:58 pm

So the 30% you mentioned are what? Simpletons? Or are you saying that contraception is so inherently unreliable that it's virtually useless?

Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

by orathaic » Thu Jul 14, 2022 7:09 pm

It is a pity you can't have an genuine discussion.

I will repeat myself, nobody chooses abortion as an alternative to contraception. It is expensive, painful and time consuming. Even ignoring the shame laid on by religious groups seeking to force their morality on all.

It is a talking point created by those same moralists used to justify removing autonomy from all pregnant people. A strawman.

Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

by Octavious » Thu Jul 14, 2022 12:26 am

orathaic wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 13, 2022 10:00 pm
Octavious wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 13, 2022 7:51 pm
orathaic wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 13, 2022 5:57 pm

What did i say?
That 30% of abortions are for women who already have children and who have decided that an additional child is not right for their family. These are people who have both thought about the issue in advance and have a good working knowledge of how pregnancy works and yet, with the exception of those who get unlucky, have also made the conscious decision not to use contraception.

I am unsure why you are objecting so strongly to the concept, Ora. If women genuinely believe that the early stage life inside them is in no meaningful sense human then aborting it as a failsafe measure if, say, the timing method was to fail, or they were simply caught without contraception and decided to risk it, would not be a controversial or traumatic decision.
Wow, you seem to have ignored the fact that contraction fails every day.

And instead jumped to the conclusion that a) people aren't using it and b) they prefer for some reason to take painful and potentially dangerous risks with abortion.

Surely the morning after pill would be the preference in these cases...
Wow, you seem to have failed to read the bit where I specifically mentioned those who get unlucky, and then made a false conclusion based upon your error

Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

by orathaic » Wed Jul 13, 2022 10:00 pm

Octavious wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 13, 2022 7:51 pm
orathaic wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 13, 2022 5:57 pm
Octavious wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 13, 2022 12:36 pm

But that is exactly what you just did :?
What did i say?
That 30% of abortions are for women who already have children and who have decided that an additional child is not right for their family. These are people who have both thought about the issue in advance and have a good working knowledge of how pregnancy works and yet, with the exception of those who get unlucky, have also made the conscious decision not to use contraception.

I am unsure why you are objecting so strongly to the concept, Ora. If women genuinely believe that the early stage life inside them is in no meaningful sense human then aborting it as a failsafe measure if, say, the timing method was to fail, or they were simply caught without contraception and decided to risk it, would not be a controversial or traumatic decision.
Wow, you seem to have ignored the fact that contraction fails every day.

And instead jumped to the conclusion that a) people aren't using it and b) they prefer for some reason to take painful and potentially dangerous risks with abortion.

Surely the morning after pill would be the preference in these cases...

Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

by Octavious » Wed Jul 13, 2022 7:51 pm

orathaic wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 13, 2022 5:57 pm
Octavious wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 13, 2022 12:36 pm
orathaic wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:59 pm
 Proposing the existence of anyone who would use abortion as a deliberate alternative to contraception is pretty fantastical
But that is exactly what you just did :?
What did i say?
That 30% of abortions are for women who already have children and who have decided that an additional child is not right for their family. These are people who have both thought about the issue in advance and have a good working knowledge of how pregnancy works and yet, with the exception of those who get unlucky, have also made the conscious decision not to use contraception.

I am unsure why you are objecting so strongly to the concept, Ora. If women genuinely believe that the early stage life inside them is in no meaningful sense human then aborting it as a failsafe measure if, say, the timing method was to fail, or they were simply caught without contraception and decided to risk it, would not be a controversial or traumatic decision.

Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

by orathaic » Wed Jul 13, 2022 5:57 pm

Octavious wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 13, 2022 12:36 pm
orathaic wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:59 pm
 Proposing the existence of anyone who would use abortion as a deliberate alternative to contraception is pretty fantastical
But that is exactly what you just did :?
What did i say?

Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

by Octavious » Wed Jul 13, 2022 12:36 pm

orathaic wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:59 pm
 Proposing the existence of anyone who would use abortion as a deliberate alternative to contraception is pretty fantastical
But that is exactly what you just did :?

Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

by Octavious » Wed Jul 13, 2022 12:35 pm

orathaic wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:59 pm
 Assuming you mean years. Being selfish at some point in your life, and being a self 20 something who has never taken on any responciblity in their life are different things.

You can be a selfish child, and still become a reasonable 30 year old with different life experience. So this seems like a strawman, or misunderstanding of my position.
I never mentioned children, nor intended to use children as an example. No, my point is that pretty much all reasonable 30, 40, 20, 60 etc year olds will act selfishly at times. It is part of being human. Sometimes it is instinctive, like choosing the item of food with the longest shelf life at the supermarket even though you intend to eat it that night. Sometimes it is calculated, like a homeowner who has agreed a price with a seller scraping that agreement because a new higher offer has made a late appearance. But the vast majority of people, to a greater or lesser degree, will take selfish decisions that knowingly benefit themselves at the expense of others. Good people try not to, but very few succeed all the time.

Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

by Jamiet99uk » Wed Jul 13, 2022 9:22 am

brainbomb wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:48 pm
 and of course any country seeking to fully ban abortion without exception need only look at the terrifying countries on that small list. You would find that even places with barely any form of womens rights whatsoever still allow abortions under exception.
Anyone who thinks that the United States will become a more frightening place to be a woman than Iraq or Afghanistan is just trying to milk the sensationalism that comes from what happened.
America would never descend into a draconian state like madagascar for example where 30% of the population is having illegal abortions in secret caverns.
Hey, in America it's the people in secret caverns you've got to worry about. I hear they've got large stocks of automatic weapons, baseball caps, and non-perishable foodstuffs.

Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

by orathaic » Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:59 pm

Octavious wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 06, 2022 4:35 pm
orathaic wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:44 am
 And i see no reason to think that a person who is being selfish would be a suitable parent.
Other than the fact that literally every human is selfish at some point in their lives? If you set the bar for parenthood at such a level then humanity will be extinct in a few hundred yards.
Assuming you mean years. Being selfish at some point in your life, and being a self 20 something who has never taken on any responciblity in their life are different things.

You can be a selfish child, and still become a reasonable 30 year old with different life experience. So this seems like a strawman, or misunderstanding of my position.
orathaic wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:44 am
 There is a very selfless example though, about 30% (can't recall the exact figure) are for people who already have children. They know how much time and energy raising a child takes, and choose to prioritise their current children
This is not remotely a selfless example. Such people can easily arrange long term contraception. For a couple to instead adopt a deliberate policy of abortion as a preferred alternative is at best painfully stupid or lazy, and at worst an utter disregard of the health of the mother. Selfless?? Not a bit.
Proposing the existence of anyone who would use abortion as a deliberate alternative to contraception is pretty fantastical. Even the least difficult medical abortions (a number of pills followed by potentially painful cramping and bleeding) is less convienant than most of the alternatives.

The fantasy that anyone is using abortion in place of contraception is mostly fabricated by pro-birthers who want to shame all people who have sex while not wanting to have a child every time.
orathaic wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:44 am
 But any person who doesn't think they would make a good parent, for any reason, selfish or not, should not be forced to go through the health and permanent damage to the body which every pregnancy risks
Agreed, unless they have left it too late and the unborn child has developed considerably. In which circumstance the rights of the unborn child to life trump the rights of the woman to have her mistakes corrected for her.
Yes, you know we agree on this point. After viability the procedure to stop someone being pregnant is a C-section/induced birthing, not an abortion. The still retain their bodily autonomy.

Unfortunately the delays are often caused by pro-birthers laws, forcing pregnant people to travel, miss work, incur extra expenses, and generally shame the choices made (where they can't legally enforce their will).

Most abortions occur in the first 12 weeks.

Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

by orathaic » Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:48 pm

brainbomb wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 06, 2022 4:45 pm
 You keep repeating that no one has a right to force a person to carry a pregnancy to term. And I feel like this line is both morally and legally bogus. Name for me any other potential life ending decision a person could make where they are allowed this one size fits all way out of being responsible.
Likewise, nobody has a right to force you to donate an orgán or even some blood to prevent someone else from dying.

Not giving your brother a life saving kidney donation could be exactly the same 'life ending' decision - except in that case, you would be talking about an adult human, capable of suffering, having friends and family of their own who depend on them and legally protected rights.

Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

by brainbomb » Wed Jul 06, 2022 4:45 pm

You keep repeating that no one has a right to force a person to carry a pregnancy to term. And I feel like this line is both morally and legally bogus. Name for me any other potential life ending decision a person could make where they are allowed this one size fits all way out of being responsible.

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