Southern Boarder

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Expand view Topic review: Southern Boarder

Re: Southern Boarder

by Octavious » Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:50 pm

Was wondering if anyone was able to varify the following? I'm not particularly familiar with the Africa Facts Zone so it's entirely possible that it's a nonsense. If not, it's pretty grim viewing.

https://twitter.com/AfricaFactsZone?t=z ... Jzcgg&s=09

Re: Southern Boarder

by orathaic » Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:58 pm

The UN has a position on self-determination, but what is harder is deciding who the 'self' is.

Like Ireland (the island) had no particular history as a unified and self-governing political entity, but it did have a language and culture... So when it came to independence the decision to arbitrarily divide it up so that a Unionist majority could be maintained in the largest possible area was, eh, not driven by some sense of fair or proportionate procedure. It was decided by unilateral Fiat under threat of war (continued war rather than an end to the conflict).

A much smaller Northern Ireland might not have been sustainable economically, but could have had 80-90% Unionist majority and avoided most of the sectarian division seen since (And particularly the 30 years of conflict from the 70s).

Which is just to say, it is pretty complicated at the best of times. Like, pre-1916, self determination for the Irish would not have resulted in independence, it just wasn't a popular idea. Whereas today, Scotland actually has the opportunity to self-determine, and voted against independence - for probably exactly the same reasons...

So anyway, should the self be all of Scotland? What about just the parts that vote to leave? What is only the parts of the UK who voted for Brexit actually got removed from the Common Market? Where do you draw the arbitrary lines which define the 'self' in the principle of self-determination?

Re: Southern Boarder

by Octavious » Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:33 pm

I confess I don't know enough about the history of the enclaves to make an informed comment. If there's a long established period of Africans who consider themselves Spanish living there for generations then it's hard to conclude that giving their home to another country, or moving them to the Spanish mainland, then it would be hard to argue for them to become Moroccan. Much like it's hard to argue for Ireland to be made part of the UK just because it's clearly part of the same group of islands.

If, on the other hand, its full of Africans who have lived there for generations and wonder why the hell they're ruled by Spain, then it's a no brainer. Pretty much the same if its a glorified military outpost.

Re: The Southern Border

by orathaic » Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:45 am

Octavious wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:15 am
Meanwhile at the other southern border wall that doesn't get anywhere near as much attention because its built by Europeans who are the enlightened liberal good guys....

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljaze ... ns-melilla

At least 18 dead
Scores wounded
Spain responds by saying it will seek to add irregular immigration to listed NATO security threats at a summit in Madrid later this month.
I an unusual turn, i actually agree with Oct on this.

Further i would question the very existence of these exclaves, as effectively colonies. It makes sense to hand them back to Morocco. As it does Gibraltar returning to Spain...

The Southern Border

by Octavious » Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:15 am

Meanwhile at the other southern border wall that doesn't get anywhere near as much attention because its built by Europeans who are the enlightened liberal good guys....

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljaze ... ns-melilla

At least 18 dead
Scores wounded
Spain responds by saying it will seek to add irregular immigration to listed NATO security threats at a summit in Madrid later this month.

Re: Southern Boarder

by Randomizer » Tue May 17, 2022 12:40 am

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/ ... e/2947728/

Building the wall did nothing to stop regular tunnel building in border towns because they have no detection systems Built six stories below the wall with reinforcements, electricity, and a rail system to speed access.

But as Trump said, "It's a beautiful wall." It's just totally useless except to stop the casual crosser.

Re: Southern Boarder

by FriendBoy » Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:01 am

MajorMitchell wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:57 pm
I think that Trump's wall was most effective at enabling racist hatreds of Mexicans to continue to flourish within Trump's supporter base. Perhaps more citizens of the USA would support the Texan wall if it encircled Texas completely & kept all the Texans inside Texas, permanently.
Sounds discriminatory against Texans. What about Arizona?

Re: Southern Border

by Randomizer » Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:42 pm

orathaic wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 6:51 pm
This who entered by plane and overstayed a visa becoming 'illegal' were not affected.
That's because US immigration policy give preferred status to illegals that arrive, "by land," meaning by boat and plane over those who use other means. It is seen mostly in Florida.

Re: Southern Border

by orathaic » Mon Jul 19, 2021 6:51 pm

I think it had a considerable effect on seasonable workers from border towns who used to cross regularly for agri work and want to know they can return home easily and often.

This who entered by plane and overstayed a visa becoming 'illegal' were not affected.

Re: Southern Boarder

by MajorMitchell » Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:57 pm

I think that Trump's wall was most effective at enabling racist hatreds of Mexicans to continue to flourish within Trump's supporter base. Perhaps more citizens of the USA would support the Texan wall if it encircled Texas completely & kept all the Texans inside Texas, permanently.

Re: Southern Boarder

by orathaic » Thu Jul 01, 2021 8:07 am

Chance that Trump wall will succeed where all other failed is not very high.
Given that the majority of 'illegal' immigrants fly into to US and then overstay their visas, I doubt the wall was ever considered an effective policy tool. More like an effective political one.

Make people afraid and they will focus on the fear while you steal their livelihoods, and quality of life through tax cuts for the super elite.

Re: Southern Boarder

by Dejan0707 » Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:02 pm

Hadrian's wall, Antonin Pio's wall, walls of Theodosius, north african wall, walls on the Rhein, walls on the Danube, Great China wall, Atlantic wall, Berlin wall, even the wall in the game of thrones. None of them worked. Humans are building walls for thousands of years that does not work.

Chance that Trump wall will succeed where all other failed is not very high.

If walls does not work, what can work? Canals might. Suez, Panama, Rhein-Danube, Black Sea to Caspian Sea, Attica, Kiel. Each one was profitable and strategic asset.

Why not instead of walls put canals. Northern one on Canadian border and southern one on Mexican. Make USA an island. Economic benefit like Panama and Suez, defensive benefit like Britain or Japan.

Re: Southern Boarder

by principians » Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:13 am

As long as people feel they can have a much better and safer life in USA, even if they are illegal, they'll continue migrating, regardless af any kind of wall. I see only 2things that can convince people they'd better not migrate:

1. A genocide in the USA
2. A true improvement in life conditions in poor parts of México and Central America

The 2nd point will be harder with climate change that has been destroying traditional ways of life in the south. And will be hard without some help. Consider for instance this. The minimum wage in Mexico is moreless 7 dollars a day. Not an hour, a day. If you'll be 8 times better on the other side, you'll consider options to workaround a wall

Re: Southern Boarder

by orathaic » Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:06 pm

I mean, you can of course go around undermining national governments, but as you pointed out that doesn't always work well.

But it also depends on who you are. Lots of NGOs do emergency aid, but what is perhaps more important is understanding development aid, and why it doesn't seem to work (Vietnam for example managed to develop without much international aid - I assume because both the Chinese and Americans were against helping them - but they did it by going to the intenational bond market, which requires convincing bond buyers your country is a good investment). So I don't know what the right answer is.

Again, the Marshall plan helped re-develop western Europe, but rebuilding institutions is much easier than developing them from scratch.

Still there is no reason to presume that local NGOs can't address the worst issues which are driving people to leave.

Though i am of course biased towards reversing the corporate extraction of resources as the first step. I'm sure there are other options, like helping build trust in democratic institutions - instead of threatening countries whose democracy happens to elect socialist politicians...

Re: Southern Boarder

by Octavious » Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:58 pm

orathaic wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:01 pm
@Oct, interesting that you give 3 examples of 'we need to fix them', rather than looking at it as a 'we should ask them how we can help them fix themselves'.
Define "them" in this context, because depending on who you ask in any particular nation you will get a wide variety of conflicting answers. You could default to the government, but often for countries with issues big enough to encourage mass emigration the government is a large part of the problem.

Re: Southern Boarder

by orathaic » Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:01 pm

@Oct, interesting that you give 3 examples of 'we need to fix them', rather than looking at it as a 'we should ask them how we can help them fix themselves'.

You have it correct, unilateral action rarely works. (establishing democracy in Iraq was far less successful than re-establishing institutions in post war Germany, where the German people had a cultural history of trusting institutions) what you need is partners on the ground.

And this has worked very well for the US in South and Central America, in the sense that the goal of partnering with governments which would facilitate US corporations to come in and make a profit. Unfortunately, the goal was extracting profit, and not building up local economies, providing employment or other pull factors to make it more attractive to stay in your own country.

Re: Southern Boarder

by Octavious » Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:34 am

FriendBoy wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:58 am
I guess the main question should be that of: "Why are there so many migrants, and what can be done to make them content where they are." I think orathaic said something like that.
The trouble is, as the experience of recent history... and most of the rest of history for that matter... has taught us, attempts to fix other countries rarely works. The very direct approach to fix Iraq failed abysmally. The more indirect approach applied to Libya in which we heavily supported friendly looking factions failed abysmally. The standoffish approach we took with Syria in which we largely let them get on with it failed abysmally. As ora has said, previous US foreign initiatives in South America has achieved mixed results, whilst liberal immigration policies has drained South America of a significant proportion of its best and brightest. The majority of my Venezuelan friends are now living in Florida where they are slowly turning into godawful Yanks. Others have moved to Switzerland and, rather appropriately, Venice.

Naturally enough any problem of international politics is unlikely to be simple enough to solve over the duration of an internet discussion, otherwise it would have ceased to be a problem long ago. What we can do is discuss the issues to expand our own understanding and give insights into the points of view of others, which can be useful to us if not to the people experiencing the issue directly.

Re: Southern Boarder

by FriendBoy » Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:20 am

Randomizer wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:21 pm
Trump did such a poor job with Covid-10 that illegal migrants slowed down to stay in healthier southern countries. :)

Trump cancelled funding for older economic programs designed to encourage people to stay in their home countries. But what can you expect from a failed businessman that didn't understand how the economy worked.
At least gas was cheaper

Re: Southern Boarder

by Randomizer » Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:21 pm

Trump did such a poor job with Covid-10 that illegal migrants slowed down to stay in healthier southern countries. :)

Trump cancelled funding for older economic programs designed to encourage people to stay in their home countries. But what can you expect from a failed businessman that didn't understand how the economy worked.

Re: Southern Border

by FriendBoy » Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:58 am

flash2015 wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:33 pm
What I don't understand is why no one fixed the title...
;)

I have enjoyed (mostly) reading the responses here and hearing the different views. Not too many solutions given though, and rather a bit of bashing instead...which is funny, because that's what happens in the government too.

I guess the main question should be that of: "Why are there so many migrants, and what can be done to make them content where they are." I think orathaic said something like that.

As to what the problem at the southern boarder is, it is a lot of people coming into the United States, many of which are coming illegally. Kids are being thrown across the boarder, and trafficking has increased.
Finally, what about Covid? You may have noticed extra hassle in air travel recently, if you have attempted travel. Everyone on-board flights have to produce a negative PCR test before flying. Before entering the UK, you also need to fill out a Passenger Locator Form. Nobody wants more Covid, so there are restrictions on movement. Illegal movement is a good way to bring in Covid.

Just a few reasons why the southern boarder is a problem. There are of course more.

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