Porn is Evil

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Expand view Topic review: Porn is Evil

Re: Porn is Evil

by Randomizer » Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:15 am

peterlund wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 8:03 pm
In this context, why do silly people complain about porn, sex and love? These are the good things in life. The world is turned up-side-down! :-(
Most of the complaints come from Christians that have spent thousands of years considering that evil since pagans did it.

Guns and violence using them is protected by the NRA who believe its a God given right to arm everyone except non-whites with weapons that can shoot down an aircraft or fire more bullets per second than any peaceful usage. Notice how little the NRA complains when law abiding Blacks with gun permits are shot by police.

Anything outside the US borders is rarely cared about since it isn't here. Trump told India PM Modi not to worry about China since they don't share a border when they do.

Re: Porn is Evil

by Fluminator » Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:19 am

Are you equating porn with love????

Re: Porn is Evil

by peterlund » Fri Feb 21, 2020 8:03 pm

What a shitty subject this is to discuss. I know lots of things that is much more evil than porn on our screens.

gun violence, blood, drinking and smoking in movies, real suffering displayed from all around the world on the TV news, stupid racist politicians talking bullshit from the White house, Kremlin, Ankara, Pyongyang or number 10 Downing street. NRA promoting the "right to bear arms", ...

In this context, why do silly people complain about porn, sex and love? These are the good things in life. The world is turned up-side-down! :-(

Re: Porn is Evil

by orathaic » Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:50 pm

What Australia has sounds like Ireland. But it is a nightmare, you could be waiting years on the public waiting lists, and if you don't have private health insurance you have no choice, but then doctors working in public hospitals can also see some private patients and get paid more by their insurance companies... So of course the waiting lists are long, the public hospitals are being paid to keep doctors who let private patients skip the queue...

There is a plan for reform, but it seems to be bogged down by a lack of political will.

Re: Porn is Evil

by flash2015 » Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:12 pm

orathaic wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:46 am
That is why medicaid/care for all is such a sensible proposition. Currently the tax payers cover only the needs of the old and poor (and maybe veterans). Instead of paying for themselves aswell. (and yes, I am assuming that the old are on pensions and not being taxed, and the poor don't earn enough to be net contributors... But I might be wrong on both counts).
Medicare in the US is a very complex beasts. Medicare is designed to make it look like it isn't a welfare program. You pay for it through your taxes through your working life. If you get to 65 and haven't paid taxes for a certain number of years, you will have to pay the premium out of pocket. And even what you do get "for free" (Medicare Part A) only covers hospitals. It doesn't cover doctor's visits (Medicare Part B - the premium comes out of Social Security) or prescriptions (Medicare Part D). Changes in recent years have been to try and privatize this bringing in traditional insurance companies as replacement for traditional Medicare Part B/D (Medicare "Advantage" - Medicare Part C). There are all sorts of "gotchas" with Medicare too, if for example you go to the hospital and they put you in a bed but leave your status as "observation" instead of "admitted", traditional Medicare Part A doesn't pay for this potentially leaving elderly vulnerable people with bills into the tens of thousands (they do this because they can extract more money out of patients by leaving them in observation status).

Even Medicaid (healthcare for the very poor) has been going the same privatization way. For years I saw lots of ads around NYC for different medical insurance companies. The reason why they advertise (which I only found out recently) isn't because they are advertising to people paying out of pocket but because the NY state government outsourced the provision of Medicaid to private insurance companies (Medicaid in general provides lower reimbursements for doctors/hospitals than Medicare making it difficult to find someone that will accept it).

As well, outside the VA (veterans hospitals) the US state and federal government pretty much owns no medical facilities. It is all private. So they currently have very little control over how health care is managed/run.

I wish M4A could pass...but it is going to be really, really difficult. Given that Bernie's proposal suggests that there will be no place for private insurance in the new system, the insurance companies and hospitals are going to create the mother of all scare campaigns to fight this, making the fight the Clintons had to reform the medical industry in the 90s look like a cake walk (Obama didn't have the same problem as Obamacare gives more money to insurance companies). And again, I don't see how you unwind this privatization in any reasonable period of time. I think Bernie is biting a little too much off here. I think a system more like Australia would be far more reasonable. In Australia what is called Medicare provides a base level of care for everyone, but then you can still buy private insurance on top of that if you wish (whatever you do some doctors/hospitals won't want to accept government reimbursement rates).

Re: Porn is Evil

by orathaic » Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:46 am

That is why medicaid/care for all is such a sensible proposition. Currently the tax payers cover only the needs of the old and poor (and maybe veterans). Instead of paying for themselves aswell. (and yes, I am assuming that the old are on pensions and not being taxed, and the poor don't earn enough to be net contributors... But I might be wrong on both counts).

Re: Porn is Evil

by flash2015 » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:54 pm

orathaic wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:25 pm
Also, yes, some people hide extra employment because it would impact their benefits. Partly because the time and effort to report (once you say you did some work they may cut off all payments, and then take weeks to restore it....
It is more than that. In Australia, if you have too much money in the bank (I believe it may be only a few thousand) you lose your government pension so retirees will sock cash in drawers in their home. Single mothers in NY don't get married because they will lose their rental assistance if they do. Since medical care is very expensive in the US (my company pays $2.6K a month for insurance for me and my wife), medicaid (which is based on income) is a HUGE benefit to lose if your income goes above the cap (especially for jobs which don't come with health insurance) which is utter madness. I believe all these policies are completely counterproductive.

Re: Porn is Evil

by orathaic » Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:25 pm

Also, yes, some people hide extra employment because it would impact their benefits. Partly because the time and effort to report (once you say you did some work they may cut off all payments, and then take weeks to restore it....

Re: Porn is Evil

by orathaic » Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:56 pm

@flash, I believe the meritocracy point was built with extras for good behaviour.

Re: Porn is Evil

by flash2015 » Sat Feb 15, 2020 5:28 pm

MajorMitchell wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:58 am
I do like the idea of a universal basic income, particularly in the wealthier nations. I enjoy conjecturing on how nation States raise the revenue to pay for it and how it could be used for Orwellian (but good for the nation) purposes.
There could be meritocracy aspects, eg single parent raising kids gets benefits for raising honest children who achieve academic excellence.
Social engineering.. persons could agree to sterilisation and be hugely rewarded.
But that isn't what UBI is. The whole point of UBI is that it has no strings attached. You get it no matter what. Along with its many other goals, the advantage is in its simplicity (if you are breathing, you get it - you don't need to hire thousands and thousands of people to be constantly checking eligibility for benefits) and it gets rid of the welfare cliff (many people either hide extra money or they avoid taking on extra work to not lose benefits).

Re: Porn is Evil

by Fluminator » Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:58 pm

orathaic wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:08 am
Fluminator wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 3:32 pm
MajorMitchell wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:22 am
I can never tell when Octavious is being sarcastic or satirical unless it's blindingly obvious. It's a problem from always respectfully taking him seriously.
Still I'm glad the suggestion that pornography caused AIDS is dismissed.

Whatever one thinks of pornography, it's popularity cannot be denied. The pornography industry's greatest challenge is the overwhelming number of amatuers producing pornography & erotica and disseminating it on the internet thingy where it's freely available.
I'm interested in how conservative libertarians who have conservative Christian beliefs view pornography. Useful for development of skills in convoluted logic ?
I'm a libertarian Christian. I've thought about the issue some more, and I'm okay with other people looking at porn if it's virtual porn or anime porn and such where its not actual men/women getting abused.

Its still terribly damaging to healthy relationships, but people would find other ways to suck at them.
You don't believe that porn actors should be likewise free to take part in porn if that is their only way of making a living?

Or do you believe the state should step in and provide them with an alternative (Universal Basic Income would be my alternative.. It just isn't very libertarian)
Honestly, as technology increases and takes more and more jobs, UBI might actually become doable. It might already be doable. I'm not an economist to know how well it would work out but I'm not as against it as a Libertarian should. I was kind of hoping Americans would vote Yang to see how well it works at this point.

In the middle ages, a lot of people sold themselves into slavery to pay off debts or survive. I don't think that should be allowed either. I don't believe thats their only way of making a living either.

Re: Porn is Evil

by Fluminator » Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:51 pm

MajorMitchell wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 8:58 am
Thanks Flum for responding. Don't adults have the right to engage in consensual acts with minimal interference from State and Church ? In a secular nation state religious groups have no right to impose their moral or religious strictures on those who choose not to join their group.

I think one of the most pernicious quasi religious cults is the Church of Scientology, yet I cannot demand that they be oppressed or persecuted.
However I can lobby Politicians to end the tax exemptions they currently enjoy exploiting and I can argue that they should be subject to scrutiny and criminal prosecution when they act unlawfully.

What's caused more harm over the centuries, religions or pornography ?
I'm not aware of pornographers burning dissidents at the stake.
Freedom stops when actions harm other people. You're not free to dump chemical waste in water, you're not free to practice religions that require you to kill/sacrifice people, you're not free to support what is a horribly corrupt industry that abuses people.

I agree with your scientology thing. They shouldn't be tax exempt from what I can see.

Comparing how much damage religion has done is a red herring. There are many different religions, and each religion has a dozen sects. I think religious practices that do currently burn people at the stake need to be stopped. Can you point me to one? Are you talking about Isis?

Re: Porn is Evil

by orathaic » Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:28 pm

I've thought some more on this. Why not have mandatory state/community service.
Add some responsibility (ie national service) to the entitlement of a basic income.

Re: Porn is Evil

by orathaic » Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:15 pm

Sterilisation? So contrast with China's now reversed one-child policy.

Second children would result in a fine. Possibly cutting off benefits. And now of course they have figured out the demographics have messed up the country. Male:female imbalance, along with the age split (1 grandchild support 4 grandparents...)

Re: Porn is Evil

by MajorMitchell » Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:58 am

I do like the idea of a universal basic income, particularly in the wealthier nations. I enjoy conjecturing on how nation States raise the revenue to pay for it and how it could be used for Orwellian (but good for the nation) purposes.
There could be meritocracy aspects, eg single parent raising kids gets benefits for raising honest children who achieve academic excellence.
Social engineering.. persons could agree to sterilisation and be hugely rewarded.

Re: Porn is Evil

by orathaic » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:08 am

Fluminator wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 3:32 pm
MajorMitchell wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:22 am
I can never tell when Octavious is being sarcastic or satirical unless it's blindingly obvious. It's a problem from always respectfully taking him seriously.
Still I'm glad the suggestion that pornography caused AIDS is dismissed.

Whatever one thinks of pornography, it's popularity cannot be denied. The pornography industry's greatest challenge is the overwhelming number of amatuers producing pornography & erotica and disseminating it on the internet thingy where it's freely available.
I'm interested in how conservative libertarians who have conservative Christian beliefs view pornography. Useful for development of skills in convoluted logic ?
I'm a libertarian Christian. I've thought about the issue some more, and I'm okay with other people looking at porn if it's virtual porn or anime porn and such where its not actual men/women getting abused.

Its still terribly damaging to healthy relationships, but people would find other ways to suck at them.
You don't believe that porn actors should be likewise free to take part in porn if that is their only way of making a living?

Or do you believe the state should step in and provide them with an alternative (Universal Basic Income would be my alternative.. It just isn't very libertarian)

Re: Porn is Evil

by Randomizer » Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:00 pm

MajorMitchell wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 8:58 am
Thanks Flum for responding. Don't adults have the right to engage in consensual acts with minimal interference from State and Church ? In a secular nation state religious groups have no right to impose their moral or religious strictures on those who choose not to join their group.

I think one of the most pernicious quasi religious cults is the Church of Scientology, yet I cannot demand that they be oppressed or persecuted.
However I can lobby Politicians to end the tax exemptions they currently enjoy exploiting and I can argue that they should be subject to scrutiny and criminal prosecution when they act unlawfully.

What's caused more harm over the centuries, religions or pornography ?
I'm not aware of pornographers burning dissidents at the stake.
It's only in the last few decades that the US Supreme Court struck down state laws restricting sexual behavior between consenting adults in the privacy of their own homes. Even legally married heterosexual couples couldn't do certain sex acts under older state laws. Although most people would argue that it would have been an illegal invasion of privacy for the police to witness such acts.

Re: Porn is Evil

by MajorMitchell » Mon Feb 10, 2020 8:58 am

Thanks Flum for responding. Don't adults have the right to engage in consensual acts with minimal interference from State and Church ? In a secular nation state religious groups have no right to impose their moral or religious strictures on those who choose not to join their group.

I think one of the most pernicious quasi religious cults is the Church of Scientology, yet I cannot demand that they be oppressed or persecuted.
However I can lobby Politicians to end the tax exemptions they currently enjoy exploiting and I can argue that they should be subject to scrutiny and criminal prosecution when they act unlawfully.

What's caused more harm over the centuries, religions or pornography ?
I'm not aware of pornographers burning dissidents at the stake.

Re: Porn is Evil

by Fluminator » Sun Feb 09, 2020 3:32 pm

MajorMitchell wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:22 am
I can never tell when Octavious is being sarcastic or satirical unless it's blindingly obvious. It's a problem from always respectfully taking him seriously.
Still I'm glad the suggestion that pornography caused AIDS is dismissed.

Whatever one thinks of pornography, it's popularity cannot be denied. The pornography industry's greatest challenge is the overwhelming number of amatuers producing pornography & erotica and disseminating it on the internet thingy where it's freely available.
I'm interested in how conservative libertarians who have conservative Christian beliefs view pornography. Useful for development of skills in convoluted logic ?
I'm a libertarian Christian. I've thought about the issue some more, and I'm okay with other people looking at porn if it's virtual porn or anime porn and such where its not actual men/women getting abused.

Its still terribly damaging to healthy relationships, but people would find other ways to suck at them.

Re: Porn is Evil

by yavuzovic » Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:23 pm

MajorMitchell wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:00 pm
Good news from Australia, one State, Queensland is introducing legislation to make "gender correction therapy" (where pompous idiots try to force persons identifying as LGBT etc to return to orthodox heterosexuality) a criminal offence. Other states will inevitably follow that lead and no doubt enact similar legislation.
Um, even with personal option?

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