Abusing The Word "coward"

by **Octavious** » Fri Dec 27, 2019 9:12 pm

flash2015 wrote: ↑
Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:47 pm
Did you notice at all there was no meaningful discussion in your thread...that people continued with the other Brexit thread instead? I wonder what that tells you?

That webDip political discussion has mostly been killed off, and those few members that still take partake weren't interested in it, misunderstood the intent, or found it puerile?

flash2015 wrote: ↑
Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:47 pm
So you are now saying it would have been better for the uncertainty to keep going then?

I am saying what I've been saying for some time. I'd have much preferred a confirmatory referendum in which the people could have opted between a real Brexit and Remain armed with the additional information we've gained over the last few years.

by **flash2015** » Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:47 pm

Octavious wrote: ↑
Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:35 pm

flash2015 wrote: ↑
Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:17 pm
What reaction are you expecting to starting a thread laughing at the election result?
A discussion on the fundamental absurdity of the state of current UK politics, perhaps?

Did you notice at all there was no meaningful discussion in your thread...that people continued with the other Brexit thread instead? I wonder what that tells you?

flash2015 wrote: ↑
Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:17 pm
I am saying this as someone that wated Boris to win just to get the thing over with.
Seriously? You're one of those idiots? Bless your little cotton socks, that's just too funny

So you are now saying it would have been better for the uncertainty to keep going then?

by **flash2015** » Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:37 pm

ILN wrote: ↑
Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:43 pm
Napoleon poisoning himself (but failing), Hitler taking cyanide along with his hottie, Mark Anthony taking his life with his sword, and Abu blowing himself up. What do all of those have in common?

This is a tough one for flash.

Hint: all preferred death to capture and the consequences that were sure to follow.

I believe there's a word for that...

So going on this definition would you call this person a coward?:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Bingen

Or this guy, that killed himself so that he wouldn't be captured by ISIS? I wouldn't but again working with your definition:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-sussex-38812873

From the article:

"Kurdish rights activist Mark Campbell, from KurdishQuestion.com, told BBC South: "Ryan Lock may very well have turned his own gun upon himself rather than be taken prisoner by ISIS.

"There are no words to describe the bravery required to take such an action. "

by **Octavious** » Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:35 pm

flash2015 wrote: ↑
Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:17 pm
What reaction are you expecting to starting a thread laughing at the election result?

A discussion on the fundamental absurdity of the state of current UK politics, perhaps?

flash2015 wrote: ↑
Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:17 pm
I am saying this as someone that wated Boris to win just to get the thing over with.

Seriously? You're one of those idiots? Bless your little cotton socks, that's just too funny

by **flash2015** » Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:30 pm

Octavious wrote: ↑
Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:09 pm

flash2015 wrote: ↑
Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:03 pm

ILN wrote: ↑
Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:31 pm

Each and every single one of those saints was killed by another, not by their own hand.

You really have to be playing mental gymnastics to see that loser as anything but a coward.
But the argument from Octavious was that because of their belief in God, it was cowardly. Their belief in being rewarded in the afterlife was so strong, that death was actually the easy option. I don't see how this is different from Christian saints. They allowed themselves to be martyred because their belief in God was so strong too. I don't see any gymnastics at all here.

If we want to of course argue that suicide in general is by definition cowardly, that is a different argument. I don't believe that either, but again that argument was not made.
That was not my argument. Again, as is so often the case, you are wrong.

I had read this statement "You're hardly in danger of death because that's your goal" as you being in agreement with others that had made that claim. So all you are now saying now is that, irrespective of religion, killing yourself to not be captured by an opponent is by definition cowardly?

by **flash2015** » Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:17 pm

Octavious wrote: ↑
Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:08 pm
A few points.

Firstly I don't troll, nor do I believe that you understand what the word means.

Secondly the thread you identify as a Brexit thread is quite obviously not a Brexit thread, nor does the post do anything except express my deep amusement at the result of the election. You have chosen to interpret that as a gesture of support for Boris, but once again your interpretation is wrong.

Thirdly, and based on the above point this should be obvious, there is no contradiction between the two posts you have identified. Nor do I understand what you mean by me being "above the fray", which is something I have neither claimed nor aspired to in British politics.

Are you completely not self-aware at all???:

"In Internet slang, a troll is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses[2] and normalizing tangential discussion,[3] whether for the troll's amusement or a specific gain."

What reaction are you expecting to starting a thread laughing at the election result? And I am saying this as someone that wated Boris to win just to get the thing over with.

by **Octavious** » Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:09 pm

flash2015 wrote: ↑
Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:03 pm

ILN wrote: ↑
Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:31 pm

flash2015 wrote: ↑
Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:57 am

Do you really know anything about religion? A fundamental idea of faith, especially in Christianity, is that you look up to those whose faith is so strong that they can overcome their fear of death to promote religious objectives. In Christianity, we often call these people "Saints".
Each and every single one of those saints was killed by another, not by their own hand.

You really have to be playing mental gymnastics to see that loser as anything but a coward.
But the argument from Octavious was that because of their belief in God, it was cowardly. Their belief in being rewarded in the afterlife was so strong, that death was actually the easy option. I don't see how this is different from Christian saints. They allowed themselves to be martyred because their belief in God was so strong too. I don't see any gymnastics at all here.

If we want to of course argue that suicide in general is by definition cowardly, that is a different argument. I don't believe that either, but again that argument was not made.

That was not my argument. Again, as is so often the case, you are wrong.

by **Octavious** » Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:08 pm

A few points.

Firstly I don't troll, nor do I believe that you understand what the word means.

Secondly the thread you identify as a Brexit thread is quite obviously not a Brexit thread, nor does the post do anything except express my deep amusement at the result of the election. You have chosen to interpret that as a gesture of support for Boris, but once again your interpretation is wrong.

Thirdly, and based on the above point this should be obvious, there is no contradiction between the two posts you have identified. Nor do I understand what you mean by me being "above the fray", which is something I have neither claimed nor aspired to in British politics.

by **flash2015** » Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:05 pm

ILN wrote: ↑
Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:43 pm
Napoleon poisoning himself (but failing), Hitler taking cyanide along with his hottie, Mark Anthony taking his life with his sword, and Abu blowing himself up. What do all of those have in common?

This is a tough one for flash.

Hint: all preferred death to capture and the consequences that were sure to follow.

I believe there's a word for that...

So your argument is that anyone that commits suicide is by definition a coward?

by **flash2015** » Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:03 pm

ILN wrote: ↑
Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:31 pm

flash2015 wrote: ↑
Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:57 am

Do you really know anything about religion? A fundamental idea of faith, especially in Christianity, is that you look up to those whose faith is so strong that they can overcome their fear of death to promote religious objectives. In Christianity, we often call these people "Saints".
Each and every single one of those saints was killed by another, not by their own hand.

You really have to be playing mental gymnastics to see that loser as anything but a coward.

But the argument from Octavious was that because of their belief in God, it was cowardly. Their belief in being rewarded in the afterlife was so strong, that death was actually the easy option. I don't see how this is different from Christian saints. They allowed themselves to be martyred because their belief in God was so strong too. I don't see any gymnastics at all here.

If we want to of course argue that suicide in general is by definition cowardly, that is a different argument. I don't believe that either, but again that argument was not made.

by **flash2015** » Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:56 pm

Octavious wrote: ↑
Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:49 am
Also I am still keen to hear what you think my Brexit position is, and what about it is extremely nationalistic or patriotic. It'd be nice to think you have some evidence in the form of some quotes to back it up, but I suspect that you have simply invented a narrative that suits your purposes that you've then convinced yourself is fact. It seems to be a habit of yours.

Sorry, I haven't been paying attention for a while.

Anyway, I assume this because of the way you post and how hard you troll. At least with people like ND or Jamiet, they make clear their trolling obviously matches their opinions. You troll hard all in the one direction. For example, your recent Brexit thread:

Hahahahahahahaha!

Oh deary me

That is all.

Then I compare it to what you say is supposedly your position in a separate thread:

In the last election it became so abysmally poor I spoiled my ballot with a message to the effect of "shame on the lot of you".

Given your first quote, I just don't trust you anymore on the second. I don't see how someone who spoils there ballot not caring who wins can be so happy when an election then goes a certain way. It appears to me you are trying to make it sound like you are "above the fray" when your trolling shows you are anything but.

by **ILN** » Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:43 pm

Napoleon poisoning himself (but failing), Hitler taking cyanide along with his hottie, Mark Anthony taking his life with his sword, and Abu blowing himself up. What do all of those have in common?

This is a tough one for flash.

Hint: all preferred death to capture and the consequences that were sure to follow.

I believe there's a word for that...

by **ILN** » Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:31 pm

flash2015 wrote: ↑
Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:57 am

Do you really know anything about religion? A fundamental idea of faith, especially in Christianity, is that you look up to those whose faith is so strong that they can overcome their fear of death to promote religious objectives. In Christianity, we often call these people "Saints".

Each and every single one of those saints was killed by another, not by their own hand.

You really have to be playing mental gymnastics to see that loser as anything but a coward.

by **MajorMitchell** » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:06 pm

Thanks Orathaic. I understand that we live in an imperfect World and have to be pragmatic, but I do see some hypocrisy in the attitude of POTUS and others who castigate China for flouting the international "rules based systems", and China is a totalitarian state with all the horrors of such a diabolical system, but when it suits the USA, that nation's leadership are quite prepared to flout the principles and the international "rules based systems" that they claim to value highly.
Trumptoad has said that the future belongs to patriots, not internationalists, and he demands respect for the rights of sovereign nations. But when it suits his nation's interests, he is willing to trample all over the sovereign rights of other nations. And Orathaic has noted, this is something that previous POTUSs , Obama, Bush have done. Even the great JFK made that mistake with Cuba (Bay of Pigs fiasco).
To paraphrase the great writer, George Orwell, all nations have equal rights of soveriegnty, it's just that some nations are more equal than others in that respect.

by **orathaic** » Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:06 pm

MajorMitchell wrote: ↑
Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:37 am
I forget the exact statement, it might have been that the United States had bought Baghdadi to justice, not delivered justice to Baghdadi, but it was the use of the word justice that caught my attention. And I certainly care more about justice, legal process than I do about calling a person a coward.
It could be argued that Trumptoad ordered an unlawful killing. Shouldn't the correct lawful action have been, capture Baghdadi and deliver him to the international Court in Europe that has tried a number of war criminals ? Or capture him and prove his guilt in a US Court ?
But as others have posted, Trumptoad was never going to let Baghdadi face proper legal process.
So I suggest that there is a significant degree of dishonesty in the way Trumptoad has described what occurred when he used the word justice.
<snip>

OK, let's be clear. Justice in this case is not legal process. What is also clear is that any US president can get away with killing 'foreign enemies' - whether Obama, Bush... They've all done it. Obama's use of drones was notable for a few reasons. Executive orders, new technology, lack of congressional oversight.... But the principle of the US govt being able to kill whoever it likes is not new.

It is also not justice. So I entirely agree with Mitchell's issue with the word 'justice', the acts justified in the name of national security are not acts of justice. And not only that the political establishment doesn't care. They are trying to impeach Trump not because of how he treats US allies, or kills enemies without getting congressional approval. They are only trying to impeach him because he tried to abuse the office of the president to harm the democratic establishment.

by **Octavious** » Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:49 am

Also I am still keen to hear what you think my Brexit position is, and what about it is extremely nationalistic or patriotic. It'd be nice to think you have some evidence in the form of some quotes to back it up, but I suspect that you have simply invented a narrative that suits your purposes that you've then convinced yourself is fact. It seems to be a habit of yours.

by **Octavious** » Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:41 am

Ah, I begin to understand... You are basing your arguments against me on a number of false assumptions.

flash2015 wrote: ↑
Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:57 am
You need to step back and show us this calm level-headedness that you are supposedly so famous for.

That's news to me. I have never claimed to be especially calm, nor am I particularly famed for it. Nor for anything else, for that matter. The days of the forum being home to big personalities is long gone, and I don't think anyone qualifies as famous anymore. That being said, I'm not all that emotionally invested either. The primary purposes of the forum are (or perhaps more accurately were) to advertise games, relax between phases, and to practice various forms of expression and argument. As important to Diplomacy as seeming relaxed and friendly when speaking to someone you can't stand, is being able to seem properly peeved when you wish to.

flash2015 wrote: ↑
Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:57 am
But by saying that faith makes choosing death an easy option, you are effectively calling everyone from Jesus on a coward.

Sorry, but where on earth did you drag that idea from? I said no such thing. I imagine that in most instances religion makes suicide somewhat harder, especially suicide combined with murder, as there's often a lot of eternal damnation attached to such actions. But for those of us without religion death is the easy way out, the stress free option when life becomes too difficult. It creates a host of problems, but generally speaking only for the living.

flash2015 wrote: ↑
Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:57 am
If all he wanted was death, why didn't he do it before?

Who said he desired death? I dare say he enjoyed the power and respect that came from being a leader. I dare say he enjoyed all sorts of little bonuses and pleasures having such a position gave him access to. But the American attack limited his options to going down fighting, being captured and having to live for years deprived of his little perks and striving for minimal gains that may or may not make any difference, or saying blow this for a game of soldiers and fleeing both the prospect of short term pain and long term hard labour with little reward by ending his life. One might argue that it was his life to end, and if it was just his life then fair enough. However it wasn't. Out of fear of pain and shame and a future deprived of glory and full of labor, he not only killed himself but took innocent lives with him. He is a coward of the vilest kind.

by **flash2015** » Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:57 am

Octavious wrote: ↑
Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:07 am

flash2015 wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:16 pm
What is more dangerous or painful than death?
Pretty much everything? Death is not at all painful as you're far too dead to notice. I dare say dying is, but the amount of time you spend dying when you explode a grenade in your face is damned near infinitesimal. As for danger... danger of what? You're hardly in danger of death because that's your goal, and would be as ridiculous as saying swimmers are in danger of getting wet. I suppose that there's a small risk of the bomb not working and you might end up in the embarrassing situation of being caught looking like a pig with an apple in its mouth wearing uncomfortably wet underwear, but that pales into insignificance compared to the dangers and pain of living.

So you were expecting a conversation about the motivation of lying to the people and the benefits or otherwise of propaganda, and hadn't even considered the possibility that other people may not share your definition of cowardice? Well bad luck. You should be delighted that this small area of your ignorance has been identified so that you can remedy it, rather than complaining about not having the argument you imagined.

Again, just to make sure it is clear, I think ISIS is evil. As an agnostic/atheist (if there is an afterlife that is a bonus so I can't completely be atheist

), I regard theocracy in all its forms as fundamentally morally wrong...so in no way shape or form am I defending Al-Baghdadi in any shape or form..

Anyway, getting to your response, the fundamental forces which drive all life are self-preservation and procreation. With Al-Baghadi, he overcame not one but both (I understand they were his children) of these primal forces. If all he wanted was death, why didn't he do it before? He could have easily got it over with a decade ago by strapping a bomb to his chest. But he didn't. Instead as head of ISIS, hated on all sides (Syria, Turks, Kurds, US, Russia, EU) he lived in more danger than almost any person currently living on this planet, certainly more than you, I or President Bone Spur ever will. It just boggles the mind how you can get "coward" from this.

Do you really know anything about religion? A fundamental idea of faith, especially in Christianity, is that you look up to those whose faith is so strong that they can overcome their fear of death to promote religious objectives. In Christianity, we often call these people "Saints". In previous discussions, if I remember correctly, YOU were one who allegedly admired religious people for their faith. But by saying that faith makes choosing death an easy option, you are effectively calling everyone from Jesus on a coward. Have you changed your mind about religion perhaps? Do you no longer admire the religious? This inconguity in your position has been made multiple times in this thread. Are you actually going to answer this time? Just to be clear by saying Al-Bagdadi is not a coward DOES NOT in any way imply that he is anything other than evil. Coward and evil, however, are NOT synonyms.

I can understand you getting emotional here because I think I am hitting a discordance in a core belief of yours. In other arguments you weren't so emotionally invested. You need to step back and show us this calm level-headedness that you are supposedly so famous for.

by **Octavious** » Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:18 am

flash2015 wrote: ↑
Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:01 pm

Octavious wrote: ↑
Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:11 am

flash2015 wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:16 pm
In the end all I hear from your explanation is that he is cowardly because Trump says so. I don't know why you repeat that he killed two children as well when he blew himself up as if it meant something.
It means he's robbed innocent people of their lives so that he can take the easy way out, you ignorant twat.
Ugh, again I condemn in the stongest possible terms that he killed the two children with him. But it still doesn't make him cowardly! Resorting to juvenile insults doesn't change the definition of the word.

Thanks for the conversation though. I can see you getting really emotional over this. This is why such conversations can't be had...because the jingoism in so ingrained in so many people. I guess I should have anticipated this response from you especially because it is consistent with the extreme patriotism/nationalism of your Brexit stance.

Yes, killing kids to take the easy way out does make him cowardly. I can think of no clearer definition of cowardice than that. That you refuse to accept anything other than your own narrow definition makes you ignorant.

Speaking of your ignorance, what exactly do you think my Brexit position is?

by **MajorMitchell** » Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:31 am

I'm of the view that calling someone else an ignorant twat lacks either cleverness or humour. Octavious is certainly capable, imho, of delivering a much cleverer and more amusing riposte, so if anything, he's rather let himself down with that comment. (in my opinion)

Abusing The Word "coward"

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