Coup d'État in the UK

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Expand view Topic review: Coup d'État in the UK

Re: Coup d'État in the UK

by orathaic » Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:38 am

Article title: "Permit Patty: Woman 'calls police' on eight-year-old for selling water"

Re: Coup d'État in the UK

by taylor4 » Sun Sep 29, 2019 6:35 pm

Link bbc.com/newsbeat-44601668 does not compute in the US, because bbc.co.uk here only leads to Auntie Beeb's Newsbeat.
Pray tell, what was subject - comparing Marlborough's Blenheim overreach vis a vis Sinologists' idees fixes on corruption trials - or has it all hit the '84 Memory Hole ?

Re: Coup d'État in the UK

by orathaic » Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:16 pm

And just focusing on the 'free and Liberal' part of the US. You would think that this applies to business, but in some things China is much freer.

Things like this don't happen in China: https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-44601668
An American-Irish friend recently pointed this out to me, after he had visited China. In China if you want to sell food on the street, all you need is a cart and some food. No regulation, no permits, no barrier to entering the market. In America wealth businesses have all the advantages because they can afford to overcome these hurdles with ease, while poverty is essentially illegal.

Re: Coup d'État in the UK

by orathaic » Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:02 pm

Octavious wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:38 am
orathaic wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:21 am
Octavious wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:01 pm
Yes... I recall you using the phrase "one party democracy" before... The passage of time hasn't made it any more convincing, I have to say.
I continue to not claim this is a good thing. Just that painting them as 'evil' lacks nuance and plays only into the propoganda of their rivals.

Just as painting the US as 'the lands of the free', as some kind of democratic paradise beyond all corruption, oppression or problems would be naive
Who was painting them as evil? You'd have to be some kind of complete muppet to label an entire nation as evil, even if you think some of their actions qualify as such.

But China are deeply wrong in how they run a nation, much to the disadvantage of the Chinese people. I firmly believe that a free and liberal democracy is the ideal, and whilst the US falls some way short of that at least their aspirations are in the right direction. The aspirations of a great many of the people of Hong Kong are also in the right direction.
You should talk to some people about China and Communism some time. There are many who believe the anti-Chinese propoganda.

And whether they can distinguish between the state (govt, party, civil service etc) and the nation is questionable. Most state who go to war do not have the complete support of every individual, thus if you are a pacifist it is much easier to paint a state as evil than a nation (the people).

Still, you think the Chinese people have aspiration any less well intentioned than the US? If we're going to judge people by only their aspirations... Well at least we can do so equally... I'm certain that even the individual in the Chinese state mechanisms aspire to do the best they can for the nation. Not so sure the same can be said for Trump (unlike his supporters)...

Re: Coup d'État in the UK

by Verming » Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:50 pm

The successful "coup" in the UK is that of the Remain establishment against the narrow, but clear answer given by the electorate to a straghtforward question. When the Leave vote is overridden, either directly by Parlt or a "vote again peasants but this time vote correctly" rigged 2nd referendum, we will have a situation where many many millions of tax-paying, decent , law abiding Brits will consider the political settlement imposed on them against their wishes by the EU and its collaborators as hostile and completely illegitimate. God knows what happens then.

Re: Coup d'État in the UK

by Octavious » Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:38 am

orathaic wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:21 am
Octavious wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:01 pm
Yes... I recall you using the phrase "one party democracy" before... The passage of time hasn't made it any more convincing, I have to say.
I continue to not claim this is a good thing. Just that painting them as 'evil' lacks nuance and plays only into the propoganda of their rivals.

Just as painting the US as 'the lands of the free', as some kind of democratic paradise beyond all corruption, oppression or problems would be naive
Who was painting them as evil? You'd have to be some kind of complete muppet to label an entire nation as evil, even if you think some of their actions qualify as such.

But China are deeply wrong in how they run a nation, much to the disadvantage of the Chinese people. I firmly believe that a free and liberal democracy is the ideal, and whilst the US falls some way short of that at least their aspirations are in the right direction. The aspirations of a great many of the people of Hong Kong are also in the right direction.

Re: Coup d'État in the UK

by Jamiet99uk » Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:25 am

The USA is a powerful force for evil.

Re: Coup d'État in the UK

by orathaic » Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:21 am

Octavious wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:01 pm
Yes... I recall you using the phrase "one party democracy" before... The passage of time hasn't made it any more convincing, I have to say.
I continue to not claim this is a good thing. Just that painting them as 'evil' lacks nuance and plays only into the propoganda of their rivals.

Just as painting the US as 'the lands of the free', as some kind of democratic paradise beyond all corruption, oppression or problems would be naive

Re: Coup d'État in the UK

by MajorMitchell » Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:12 am

Yes Octavious our Oracle, the description "one party democracy" is I think a polite euphemism for totalitarian dictatorship.
I think wonderful Orathaic is innacurate in equating voting within the Chinese Communist Party to voting in a genuine democracy, if that is what he is doing. Only members of the Chinese Communist Party are eligible to vote in Party "elections" .. it's nowhere near a democratic vote by all adult citizens.
That's a feature of the USA as well, the inequities in enfranchisement. The USA imho is not a genuine democracy, it's a Republic with corrupted elements of democracy. Perhaps a way to reform the political system in the USA would be to start with effective reforms to laws governing political donations & funding and introducing compulsory voting and getting rid of the inequities in enfranchisement.
It's a seductive dream, the USA & a multitude of other nations having corruption free electoral processes with equitable, universal enfranchisements. As I have frequently remarked, our collective path to enlightenment is long and arduous. (& not often helped by the God botherers)

Re: Coup d'État in the UK

by Kingdroid » Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:15 am

... Not being a free and liberal democracy (most countries in the world, even the ones that you probably think are, are not) doesn't make it communist, or even socialist. It's a capitalist one party state, but it's definitely capitalist. Capitalism isn't inherently (or even particularly) democratic. And, neither is communism, though it can be.

Re: Coup d'État in the UK

by Octavious » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:01 pm

Yes... I recall you using the phrase "one party democracy" before... The passage of time hasn't made it any more convincing, I have to say.

Re: Coup d'État in the UK

by orathaic » Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:45 pm

Octavious wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:19 am
Kingdroid wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:01 pm
China isn't communist.
In some respects it's arguably not, but it's very much definitely not a free and liberal democracy. Hong Kong, by way of contrast, sees itself in that light, and it is that set of ideas that have been unleashed on the communist traditions of state control and public obedience that China imposes on the mainland.
I've said it before, China is a one party democracy. They still elect people to positions within the party... But it is problematic. Much like the US where the broken two party system means most people's votes don't count for much... And the two parties are pro-corporate interests who buy election campaigns...

Re: Coup d'État in the UK

by Octavious » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:19 am

Kingdroid wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:01 pm
China isn't communist.
In some respects it's arguably not, but it's very much definitely not a free and liberal democracy. Hong Kong, by way of contrast, sees itself in that light, and it is that set of ideas that have been unleashed on the communist traditions of state control and public obedience that China imposes on the mainland.

Re: Coup d'État in the UK

by MajorMitchell » Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:44 am

Oops, smack in the face.. damn typos

Re: Coup d'État in the UK

by MajorMitchell » Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:43 am

The performance of state run Capitalism in the Chinese example is also a snack in the face for all those acolytes of the notion that Governments cannot be effective business operators, the radical free market philosophers.

Re: Coup d'État in the UK

by MajorMitchell » Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:36 am

Well there's that old saying, be careful what you ask for...

Re: Coup d'État in the UK

by Kingdroid » Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:28 am

But yeah it's quite ironic how the western countries keep crying communism about a country that is actually just doing capitalism better than them

Re: Coup d'État in the UK

by Kingdroid » Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:28 am

State capitalism can be quite powerful in a nation state geopolitical sense. Not that I agree with any form of capitalism.

Re: Coup d'État in the UK

by MajorMitchell » Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:08 am

Agreed, China is no longer a Communist nation, certainly not a form of Communism that Marx and Engel proposed or would recognise. There's an irony in that, the "People's Party" is now the oppressor of the ordinary citizen. The other irony is that the capitalist "Western nations" particularly the USA and it's powerful Capitalist robber barons wanted China to engage in Capitalism and now many of those same people particularly in the USA are now whining because the Chinese are such damn good capitalists.

Re: Coup d'État in the UK

by Kingdroid » Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:01 pm

Octavious wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:52 pm
MPC wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:00 pm
See how China is humiliating the UK in general and regarding HK in particular
How is China humiliating the UK? The entire point of the Hong Kong handover was that it would cease to be a problem for us (in the sense that keeping it British would cause a permanent argument with a military that would outnumber anything we could deliver locally by 100 to 1) and start being a problem for China (in the sense that a city full of millions of independent thinking freedom loving Chinese would be unleashed amongst those who know nothing but Communism). It seems to be working beautifully.
China isn't communist.

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