Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

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Expand view Topic review: Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

Re: Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

by MartyMoose » Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:33 pm

Brand new player that’s been paying attention to the world for a while... But, I’ll keep my response game related. I also didn’t play the board game, but chances are you knew your friends and the goal was to have fun with the same friends you were going to keep. And, you probably had similar gaming experience. Online (and I’m not knocking the online experience, I joined on purpose) you have 2 things that come to mind. 1) you don’t know your opponents aren’t conspiring over text. You would like to. But you don’t. I know I could trust the friends and family I’m inviting to play, won’t cheat. You... you don’t know that. 2) How many noobs (like me), or players that just don’t have the skill set to win (we will see if that’s also “like me”) end up shifting allegiances like any other developing nation stuck in the middle?
I think the online version reflects the real world more than a game among friends. Everybody lies. But, lie within the context of the rules. Don’t cheat - conspire with someone outside the allowed and accepted rules of the game we enjoy.

Re: Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

by Matticus13 » Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:31 pm

ssorenn wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:53 pm
Calmar wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:41 pm
I have an issue with another form of what I would put in the honesty/dishonesty category. That is someone who copies and pastes your conversation and sends it to another player. This to me is the outside the normal realm of proper communication in this game. It really irks me something fierce!
While it’s up to you to let it bother you, i find no issue with this. I find it to be the same as someone in FTF telling you what someone else said. Also, when you copy and paste, you can change the text, so taking everything at face value is foolish.
I would never use such a devious tactic... ;)

Re: Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

by ssorenn » Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:53 pm

Calmar wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:41 pm
I have an issue with another form of what I would put in the honesty/dishonesty category. That is someone who copies and pastes your conversation and sends it to another player. This to me is the outside the normal realm of proper communication in this game. It really irks me something fierce!
While it’s up to you to let it bother you, i find no issue with this. I find it to be the same as someone in FTF telling you what someone else said. Also, when you copy and paste, you can change the text, so taking everything at face value is foolish.

Re: Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

by Calmar » Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:41 pm

I have an issue with another form of what I would put in the honesty/dishonesty category. That is someone who copies and pastes your conversation and sends it to another player. This to me is the outside the normal realm of proper communication in this game. It really irks me something fierce!

Re: Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

by David E. Cohen » Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:48 pm

I tell the truth as much as I can, as often as I can. It makes the lies SOOOOOO much more effective!

Re: Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

by ssorenn » Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:34 pm

PRINCE WILLIAM wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:11 pm
Some lies are needed, after all, you cannot have all six of your co-players (or 9 or even 16 in other versions) happy otherwise. But if I come to an alliance, I will not betray my ally. The opposite is a bitter cup to swallow, and this makes me sometimes to stay away from playing.
While this may be true on the surface , telling someone the truth can still get you what and where you want to go. It’s all in the way you word things.

Why is truth and integrity so important, most players at some point need to backtrack because things did not go their way. Having told the truth allows for people, to still be able to trust you and give second and maybe third chances

Re: Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

by foodcoats » Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:48 am

I can't speak to whether there is more or less lying, but something I often find lacking is players who negotiate. It surprises me how so many players who ally me do not thoroughly question my plans, which allows me to lie by omission on a frequent basis and gain advantages over allies and enemies alike.

It's great if I can get away with a lie, but I think it's almost more important to be able to prevent others from lying to me by prodding their plans and demanding explanations. That's how great alliances are built and how you prevent clever players from stabbing you, and also how you flip players in the mid-game - by exposing the lies of their allies (who are your enemies).

Re: Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

by Claesar » Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:24 am

mhsmith0 wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:04 am
Addendum: if we're playing gunboat I'll sell your soul to satan for a corn chip :P :evil:
Interesting, because I'm roughly as trustworthy in GB as Press. I think.

Re: Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

by mhsmith0 » Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:04 am

Addendum: if we're playing gunboat I'll sell your soul to satan for a corn chip :P :evil:

Re: Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

by Wusti » Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:56 am

Octavious wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:50 am
If you solo from time to time you're doing it right. If you never solo you're doing it wrong. It's that simple. Those who see the game as an exercise in forming a game long alliance have misunderstood the concept and are robbing their fellow players of an enjoyable experience.
I hate having to agree with Octavious. I'll simply remember who owns the Ashes and console myself with that.

Re: Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

by David E. Cohen » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:48 pm

Tugster wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:19 am
David, my real name is Doug Burgoyne.
Doug, old buddy! How the hell are you? Always nice to see another Cat23/ACD veteran with his hand still in it!

Re: Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

by mhsmith0 » Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:37 pm

PRINCE WILLIAM wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:11 pm
Some lies are needed, after all, you cannot have all six of your co-players (or 9 or even 16 in other versions) happy otherwise. But if I come to an alliance, I will not betray my ally. The opposite is a bitter cup to swallow, and this makes me sometimes to stay away from playing.
I generally won't betray an ally w/o good reason, but sometimes there's good reason. Grabbing a single dot, maybe even two dots, isn't really a good reason.

"I need to kill this guy to solo" is a great reason (especially if you're NOT in an easy 2wd situation otherwise)
"Our alliance is stalling or very clearly is about to stall, and without a stab we're going towards a 5wd, and if I stab he can't stop me, and if I stab someone on the OTHER side will also stab and we're looking at whittling to 2wd or 3wd" is a decent reason
etc
I think going overboard on always being loyal to an ally is kinda carebear territory and I don't think that's my playstyle at least

Re: Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

by KalelChase » Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:35 pm

I will betray and ally who 'deserves' it. If we're rolling over the board and all of their pieces are fleets locked up in the Med, and they did nothing to protect their flank with a single army I'll invade. But only if I can cripple them and I'm sure it'll lead to my solo. As previously mentioned sometimes I'll discuss the possibility ahead of time, and if we've developed a common enemy or I've saved their ass a couple of times they'll just let me do it.

Re: Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

by PRINCE WILLIAM » Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:11 pm

Some lies are needed, after all, you cannot have all six of your co-players (or 9 or even 16 in other versions) happy otherwise. But if I come to an alliance, I will not betray my ally. The opposite is a bitter cup to swallow, and this makes me sometimes to stay away from playing.

Re: Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

by ssorenn » Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:19 pm

It is my opinion that integrity gets you further than lying in a general sense. I do believe that there are players who view this game as a lying contest. See what sticks and what doesn’t. Those people will never escalate their game to a higher level, unless they change.
This game is built upon possible deceit, But early integrity will win out over time.

Re: Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

by WyattS14 » Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:18 pm

I think someone was upset about a bad backstab :neutral:

Re: Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

by Tugster » Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:19 am

David, my real name is Doug Burgoyne.

Re: Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

by Tugster » Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:18 am

David Cohen, how are you? I have played since 1979, we lied our asses off...

Re: Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

by David E. Cohen » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:22 pm

diplomatt13 wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:57 am
I'm sorry but when I played back 70's and 80's, seems the game was played with more honor. You didn't have to lie to win. The game was more like chess and you had to think about moves not simply lie. Has the ability of the average gamer dropped so low, that lying to gain the advantage has become the norm?
I have no idea where you played, but I played my first game of Dip in September, 1980, so 39 years ago, and lying doesn't seem any more commonplace now than it did then. Ubiquitous then as now. :-D

Re: Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

by mhsmith0 » Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:43 pm

VillageIdiot wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:46 am
...
I struggle to think what that would even look like. This game just isn't well designed to function well without some amount of, we'll call it bluffing. Decent players should be poking and prodding you all the time to ask what you're up to and half the strategies won't succeed very well if you're completely honest with "sorry, I like Russia more so i'm going to be coming for you" - especially when they may still have a day or two left in the phase to use that honest insight to then build a counter-plan or negotiate against you.
...
two of my easiest games boiled down largely to this

1) As Italy, throughout 1901 Russia communicated that he liked both me and Turkey. Guess what? I allied Austria hard, presented Turkey's death as basically a fait accompli, and THEN allied Russia.

2) As Russia, late in spring 1901 England communicated that he was gonna vacate the channel but that we were totes gonna be friends and stuff. Guess who got Sealioned while Russia opened north, receiving Norway and a hassle free northern border for his trouble :smirk:

Amusingly, both games ended up in easy FIR 3 ways, something I think I probably fall into *TOO* easily as any of those three powers...

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