[quote=Squigs44 post_id=112683 time=1572932789 user_id=3497]

Jmo is the half that can. I'm the half that cant
[/quote]

Your implication was clear, I was joking too... I think mine is better! 😉

[quote=MadMarx post_id=112650 time=1572928931 user_id=149]
[quote=Squigs44 post_id=112623 time=1572919889 user_id=3497]
Half the dev's cant figure out what's going on either ;)
[/quote]

Dang Squiggs44 that’s harsh, you know jmo will read this eventually... 🤣
[/quote]

Jmo is the half that can. I'm the half that cant

[quote=Squigs44 post_id=112623 time=1572919889 user_id=3497]
Half the dev's cant figure out what's going on either ;)
[/quote]

Dang Squiggs44 that’s harsh, you know jmo will read this eventually... 🤣

[quote=Restitution post_id=112355 time=1572893146 user_id=5532]
[quote=flash2015 post_id=112210 time=1572825221 user_id=80]
I wasn't really asking for minute details (to be picky, it is hard to keep implementation secret when the code is open source)
[/quote]

Most players and mods can't read code.
[/quote]

Half the dev's cant figure out what's going on either ;)

Fasces was perma banned for disclosing mod tools way back when, so that's a somewhat serious thing, from my understanding.

[quote=flash2015 post_id=112210 time=1572825221 user_id=80]
I wasn't really asking for minute details (to be picky, it is hard to keep implementation secret when the code is open source)
[/quote]

Most players and mods can't read code.

I wasn't really asking for minute details (to be picky, it is hard to keep implementation secret when the code is open source), but it is great you have an audit trail. Thanks for the answer!

We are not going to divulge the tools our moderators use, but no, Magnetic did not have database access. The introduction of excused missed turns came with a new set of moderator tools that made what he was doing possible without directly connecting to our database, which is one reason why these changes are so helpful but also an avenue for potential abuse. The failsafe for preventing and catching abuse is that each of these actions are clearly and permanently logged (as is the case with any mod action taken), which is why he was caught instead of getting away with it.

Oh wow. I agree. As Uncle Ben said "with great power comes great responsibility". With this huge breach in trust you really have no choice but to ban him completely.

On a side note, how did he change his RR? I remember I asked this question a while back for ghug when he was a mod and he said it required sql access (I believed there was an error in my RR). Did Magnetic have direct sql access????

I'd rather an ethical dickhead (like me!) than a likeable cheat anyday.

Since when does "being a nice guy" make an excuse for cheating? I think its hilarious that some people think likeability is more important than ethics.

Good call on the ban.

An appropriate response. While calls for leniency are understandable, think about this: For someone you work alongside to have been repeatedly and calculatedly deceiving the rest of the team not only is a black mark on those actions but will also have required everyone else to comb over literally everything he did - Because having done that, who knows what else he may have done?

Given how valuable people's time is, and the finite amount of it, this probably cost the whole mod team significant time, energy, and not to mention the damage to team morale... And that affects everyone on the site in unseen ways. Instead of that cheater in your game being banned before he ruined it, the mods were running fine toothed combs over one of their own. That new feature that gets pushed back. Even if it's just a slower response to an email query that means a phase goes through that ideally shouldn't have.

So not only did his actions directly affect the games that he was in, but they have knock-on effects everywhere else. There certainly won't have been any joy derived from inflicting such a harsh punishment, but that doesn't mean it isn't necessary.

Holy crap, a MadMarx and a Durga and an Octavious sighting! This must really be a serious development indeed.

@ me when jmo is banned 😂

Good thing I was never a mod. I'd absolutely have rigged my reliability ranking to be above 100%

This makes more sense... I was wondering how I was able to take over a 220 bet Russia in a decent position.

This is an interesting situation, especially given the individuals involved...

A ban for life does seem extreme, from the outside-looking-in, but as they say, ignorance is bliss...

When I *completely* *lost* *my* * shit* during the last World Cup Finals, that situation seems to have been born from diametrically opposed expectations and a lack of information / communication. As Scarabus so eloquently summarized my personal opinion, “If you are in a position of power, you have to be whiter than white, or you may invite criticism.” While a different view of that World Cup Finals situation was difficult / impossible for me to wrap my head around in the heat of the moment, with a bit of time things can come into better focus, and admitting that others may have a somewhat plausible view of the situation can slowly become more of a possibility, especially as you weigh in your own ignorance / biases that factors into the equation... My guess is that Magnetic24 had reasons for doing what he did that seemed logical / reasonable to him at the time, positive reasons that outweighed the negatives, and perhaps at some point in time the powers that be will give him credit for meaning well especially if with hindsight Magnetic24 can admit he screwed up big time... Maybe...

Volunteering to enforce rules is an extremely difficult (and sometimes thankless) job that I do not have the DNA to even attempt... Cheers to those that are (and have been / will be) so generous / brave to do so, clearly your efforts are very much appreciated by many...

With great power comes great responsibility - apparently.

I'm not in favour of lifetime bans, especially when they are impossible to enforce 100% reliably.

However, the site mods do also have to punish infringements and, when the offence involves a breach of trust - as this one has - that punishment will be severe.

For what it's worth, I would say that a year's outright ban followed by the option of a review is proportionate.

If Mag did come back, his stock would be very low and I would expect him to be kept on a close watch.

[quote=BunnyGo post_id=109206 time=1571927081 user_id=7527]
When someone breaks social norms like this, I can see lifetime bans as appropriate. To be clear again: I'm not speaking to Magnetic's case specifically, I don't understand the details, the person, etc. But in the bridge world, when cheats have been welcomed back, it is a signal to those who lost to them, fought to prove the cheating existed, and stopped attending tournaments because cheating was rampant, that it's somewhat tolerated and may (read: does) occur again.
[/quote]

Very well put, I agree.

It's also very important to deter cheating. One would hope that mods would behave ethically for its own sake, but given that they (at least sometimes) don't, having a really clear-cut and harsh punishment will deter any other misbehavior from them.

This is about watching the watchmen. It's harder to catch people in positions of power, so it's also imporant to punish them more severely.

My position on this changed like 100% since the start of the thread, lol

[quote=FlaviusAetius post_id=109183 time=1571860186 user_id=2612]
Banning anyone permanently from anything is never a good idea imo :I
[/quote]

This has been a big debate in the bridge world, where it's been recently shown that almost every major tournament for the last 2 decades has been tainted with cheating (something that was only whispered about for years). In that case, I'm fully on the side of "banned for life". The players have systematically cheated their way to ruin the game for everyone.

As an analogy (not what Magnetic did, I don't know the situation here as well), imagine if I and a conspirator had tacit agreements to pass intel to each other *always*. Whether we're fighting in a game or not, whether we're even IN the game or not. We know it'll be better for both of us long term; if we hear stuff (maybe even as I mentor someone I hear stuff about games I'm not in) and pass it to each other.

Non-diplomacy players might not appreciate how devastating just this agreement is (the same way non-bridge players don't understand how devastating it is to have an illegal signal that just tells each other how many hearts are in our hands and nothing else), but it completely ruins the game FOR EVERYONE ELSE. It destroys the community, and it is completely antithetical to any social norm required for communal gaming.

When someone breaks social norms like this, I can see lifetime bans as appropriate. To be clear again: I'm not speaking to Magnetic's case specifically, I don't understand the details, the person, etc. But in the bridge world, when cheats have been welcomed back, it is a signal to those who lost to them, fought to prove the cheating existed, and stopped attending tournaments because cheating was rampant, that it's somewhat tolerated and may (read: does) occur again.

Ostracization from society is a useful tool. Even if those who are friendly with the ostracized person interact with them in other settings.

[quote=FlaviusAetius post_id=109183 time=1571860186 user_id=2612]
Banning anyone permanently from anything is never a good idea imo :I
[/quote]

But cheats always want “another chance” & have learned to expect it.

I once warned a salesman I’d get up & leave if he lied to me during the sales pitch & that I would ask questions to which I knew the true answer. He did & I quietly got up to leave. He got mad at me! Considering it wasn’t fair for me to expect complete truth in a sales negotiation. It’s the way the world has become, due to unjustified generosity towards deceit & cheating.

The mods are handling this correctly. Nothing wrong with permanent when appropriate.