wD Mafia Master Post

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Expand view Topic review: wD Mafia Master Post

Re: wD Mafia Master Post

by Jamiet99uk » Tue May 21, 2024 8:42 am

DiplomacyandWarfare wrote: ↑
Tue May 21, 2024 1:45 am
 What are the rules about this anyways? It seems like there is a consensus that GMs handpicking players for roles is bad, and randomization is good. "Rerolling" randomized roles is sometimes acceptable. Is there a rule or Kouncil decision that GMs cannot handpick players for roles? I've seen (and read) the official rules doc, but people seem to be referencing other Kouncil decisions. Is there, like, a record of past Kouncil decisions or...?
The Kouncil is not quite that formal.

However in this case I think some guidance from them (after due consideration) would be helpful.

Chaqa is right that this has been left to "trust the GMs" in the past, but now that the box has been opened, and some quite forthright views expressed, I don't think we can just close that box, so we probably need a framework, set by the Kouncil, to which GMs should adhere.

Re: wD Mafia Master Post

by Jamiet99uk » Tue May 21, 2024 8:26 am

brainbomb wrote: ↑
Tue May 21, 2024 12:19 am
 First off dont come flying in here calling my games bastard and my methodology bastard. Show me real examples of bastard games ive run. No backpedalling. No whataboutisms. Prove your talking point that used as toxic of verbiage as possible.
"Bastard mod" is common terminology in the Mafia community.

In any case I did not call you a Bastard Mod. The only time that has ever truly happened (outside of Wjessop, probably), is when Captainmeme tried to be funny.

Re: wD Mafia Master Post

by FlaviusAetius » Tue May 21, 2024 7:33 am

brainbomb wrote: ↑
Tue May 21, 2024 12:19 am
 First off dont come flying in here calling my games bastard and my methodology bastard. Show me real examples of bastard games ive run. No backpedalling. No whataboutisms. Prove your talking point that used as toxic of verbiage as possible.
The problem isn't that your method was faulty, the problem is that its been revealed now and a pervasive habit of GMs to do things such as this. So now outside considerations are going to come into games you GM, your past games are not ruined or should be called into question. Future games done in this method without an assurance of randomization, are

Re: wD Mafia Master Post

by FlaviusAetius » Tue May 21, 2024 7:27 am

dargorygel wrote: ↑
Mon May 20, 2024 7:54 pm
 FWIW... or maybe more than that...
While I agree with Balki's concerns about manipulation, I am fairly sure that I have never seen this being abused. I think I have GM'ed OR Co-GMed at the top end of numbers in here.

I would never have stood for (as Kouncil or player) a 'favorite' mentality. I would never have stood for (as Kouncil or player) a "try to make it completely perfectly balanced' mentality.

If some have been softer on this in the past, let's do better.

(Captain meme aside)
No but that's not the point, sure there's a scenario where this could be abused and you can give people fun and interesting roles. But that would probably be caught on pretty quickly.

The issue is the integrity of the game itself, outside considerations now need to be considered when deciding if someone is a mafia or not, that is the problem.
and to the person who said "oh my intentions are forever inexplicable you cant figure them out"
well that's the problem isn't it? everyone is now going to be trying to figure them out, instead of actually considering the mafia game at hand, in a vacuum(as it should be), the game is lesser for it, and that isn't good. Randomization must be ensured.

Re: wD Mafia Master Post

by FlaviusAetius » Tue May 21, 2024 7:24 am

Chaqa wrote: ↑
Mon May 20, 2024 7:09 pm
Balki Bartokomous wrote: ↑
Mon May 20, 2024 7:07 pm
Chaqa wrote: ↑
Mon May 20, 2024 7:04 pm

How do you feel knowing this has always been how it is, and you were just blissfully unaware?

I don't think it's super common, but it's a tool in the GM's toolbox like any other.
I don't feel great about it. It makes me think back to some things that happened over and over again in games I recall playing here (e.g., Fluminator was always a PR, demonoverlord was always VT).

I am surprised that I seem to be the only person who thinks this is a problem.
I think you are looking at the trees instead of the forest here. I am also curious to hear others' opinions on it. For me it is just a way to ensure a game doesn't turn into a dumpster fire immediately if we had for example a mafia team made up of all people who had never played before.
But SO WHAT! That would be funny! Sometimes games are going to end in a blaze of fire, that's the point of randomization! And its mafia, its really hard to mess up being a mafia so horribly that it ends up into a dumpster fire, everyone makes mistakes everyone has those days. The point is to live and learn

Re: wD Mafia Master Post

by FlaviusAetius » Tue May 21, 2024 7:22 am

Chaqa wrote: ↑
Mon May 20, 2024 7:04 pm
Balki Bartokomous wrote: ↑
Mon May 20, 2024 6:59 pm
 I only think that the game would be better with more oversight now that I know the general sentiments on randomization that you stated and quoted.
How do you feel knowing this has always been how it is, and you were just blissfully unaware?

I don't think it's super common, but it's a tool in the GM's toolbox like any other.
There was only one scenario where handpicking was OK, and that is in a blissfully unaware situation. Now that we know its a possibility, and that people are actually doing it, it taints the game, it can't happen anymore.
Also previously you said "its the GM's job to make sure the game is not a combative environment" or something like this.
What??
That makes no sense at all, the point of randomization is that anything could happen in any one game, that means one game could be full of combativeness and another could have everyone in a field all happy together. If the game's are being tailored, then you've lost the plot

Re: wD Mafia Master Post

by FlaviusAetius » Tue May 21, 2024 7:18 am

brainbomb wrote: ↑
Mon May 20, 2024 6:57 pm
 A Mafia game is a production event. There is a cast of characters, a plot, an engine and all things therein run through its director whose first duty is to provide a fun, fair, and high quality game.

I dont think we need more micromanagement into the GMs on this forum. but we have a kouncil who can do those things if people think thats important.
Its bad though when players need to play a different game outside to see what would the GM be deciding here? And now because this scenario has been brought up and so many GMs are willing to reroll, I think there needs to be a rule ensuring there is true randomness and no GM muckery happening

Otherwise that high quality game you want to be playing is forever tainted, and harmed, with a large shadow over it, ruins the whole experience imo.

Re: wD Mafia Master Post

by FlaviusAetius » Tue May 21, 2024 7:15 am

Balki Bartokomous wrote: ↑
Mon May 20, 2024 6:48 pm
 I don't think that any part of the game should be "Would this GM allow this to be the role distribution?" And if it's okay for GMs to influence role assignments, then that's part of the game here.
This so much. There should never be an outside influence leading you to believe one person or another is mafia or not based on the GM's preferences. It should be randomized and always randomized. Some games will have mostly newer players being mafia, and that might lead to an easy game, it might lead to a legendary game out of no where. That's the point of randomness, literally anything could happen. If you love the scenario you concocted so much and want another crack at it because you felt the scenario you created didn't get its full potential, then we can play it again that's the solution to that. The solution is not for GMs to reroll or handpick when the randomness doesn't give them what they want

Re: wD Mafia Master Post

by DiplomacyandWarfare » Tue May 21, 2024 1:45 am

What are the rules about this anyways? It seems like there is a consensus that GMs handpicking players for roles is bad, and randomization is good. "Rerolling" randomized roles is sometimes acceptable. Is there a rule or Kouncil decision that GMs cannot handpick players for roles? I've seen (and read) the official rules doc, but people seem to be referencing other Kouncil decisions. Is there, like, a record of past Kouncil decisions or...?

Re: wD Mafia Master Post

by Chaqa » Tue May 21, 2024 1:23 am

Let's all take a breather. I don't think anything has been meant too personally

Re: wD Mafia Master Post

by brainbomb » Tue May 21, 2024 12:36 am

I will take your lack of response as capitulation to the toxic and completely ridiculous claims you were making. Now we can move on!

Re: wD Mafia Master Post

by brainbomb » Tue May 21, 2024 12:23 am

If you have a single example of a game where you think the game was flawed and you got unfairly treated by all means cite it.

I can call up multiple examples of games where you deliberately used your position to hurt me or screw me over specifically and it wasnt even the rand. Your unfair administration in the game where durga was calling players incels and you gave her a slap on the wrist but then modkilled me for giving someone a +1 as an example.

You applied the letter of the law as a GM in whatever way you wanted when it suited you and wanted to be a kind appeaser in chief until it came to defining the law towards me. That is a classic example of what we should be focused on outlawing - not what a gm randed privately for their own game.

Re: wD Mafia Master Post

by sweetandcool » Tue May 21, 2024 12:21 am

1. I trust the GMs and I trust their discretion.

2. I assume it is pretty rare, but I can understand that in some scenarios the game's assignments are such that concerns arise, such as a Mafia team composed of all new players who have only posted once in forum (bot game? (; ).

If the GMs deem the assignment roll for a game to be degenerate, then I think it is fine if they reroll the entire setup. Rerolling a particular assignment is unacceptable.

3. I would be okay if a rule was made to set the standard that no rerolls (or one reroll in degenerate circumstances) be allowed.

4. We should set some sort of official standard. Because of the integrity of our GMs I don't think we should be draconian about enforcing it and just trust the standard is followed.

Re: wD Mafia Master Post

by brainbomb » Tue May 21, 2024 12:19 am

First off dont come flying in here calling my games bastard and my methodology bastard. Show me real examples of bastard games ive run. No backpedalling. No whataboutisms. Prove your talking point that used as toxic of verbiage as possible.

Re: wD Mafia Master Post

by Jamiet99uk » Tue May 21, 2024 12:13 am

brainbomb wrote: ↑
Tue May 21, 2024 12:07 am
 The far more problematic issues with games recently has not been gm rand decisions.

Its been poorly balanced or totally imbalanved setups.

Random new rules being pushed or rescinded at random.

Player numbers dwindling and a council that lacked membership.

Too many role madness setups from gms which kept getting approved despite easy breakable issues

Despite these these things our community is doing very well. Like the gms we have are really passionate and invested.

Be aware that you are advocating your own personal desires to be imprinted on random dice rolls rather than allowing the gm director to be a director. To that point I feel that. Voices on this subject are not being totally transparent like I am. Nor to the extent I am.

Ive never run a bastard game on this forum and if you consider what ive done bastard then please find actual evidence that what ive done previously produced bad games with bastard outcomes.
Calm down, Brain. You are behaving as if you feel you have been personally accused of something. I don't believe that is the case. Balki raised a valid point about GM neutrality and transparency, that's all. Don't take any of this personally. You are a valued member of this community. You don't need to personally defend yourself here.

Re: wD Mafia Master Post

by brainbomb » Tue May 21, 2024 12:07 am

The far more problematic issues with games recently has not been gm rand decisions.

Its been poorly balanced or totally imbalanved setups.

Random new rules being pushed or rescinded at random.

Player numbers dwindling and a council that lacked membership.

Too many role madness setups from gms which kept getting approved despite easy breakable issues

Despite these these things our community is doing very well. Like the gms we have are really passionate and invested.

Be aware that you are advocating your own personal desires to be imprinted on random dice rolls rather than allowing the gm director to be a director. To that point I feel that. Voices on this subject are not being totally transparent like I am. Nor to the extent I am.

Ive never run a bastard game on this forum and if you consider what ive done bastard then please find actual evidence that what ive done previously produced bad games with bastard outcomes.

Re: wD Mafia Master Post

by brainbomb » Tue May 21, 2024 12:02 am

If you can think of any game of mine you played in where you feel the result was bastard we can go to the scoresheet and mark them as no contest.

I have already stated I will randomize the upcoming game with zero gm influence on the semi open roles and on the actual rand. Just a one off roll and let it be.

Re: wD Mafia Master Post

by brainbomb » Mon May 20, 2024 11:59 pm

I invite anyone in any game of mine to cite an instance where they feel my system created a bastard game.

Please provide exact examples of what you are accusing me of and what you feel in each case created a fraudulent outcome

Re: wD Mafia Master Post

by DiplomacyandWarfare » Mon May 20, 2024 11:51 pm

Alright here's my opinion on all this:

GMs should have to randomize roles. GMs should not (be able to) handpick who gets what role.
If GMs randomize and there is an obviously problem, such as that the entire scum-team is new players, the GM should completely reroll the setup.
GMs should readily admit that they have rerolled as above after the game is finished.

I believe this provides the best balance by avoiding the extremes of "what role would the GM give X" and crappy scum-teams.

What sayeth damo's hat?

Re: wD Mafia Master Post

by foodcoats » Mon May 20, 2024 11:41 pm

Balki Bartokomous wrote: ↑
Mon May 20, 2024 8:14 pm
 To be clear: I am not challenging anyone's character, and I don't think this is any sort of "cheating," especially where you all are explicit about it, as you are. I just think this is a rules question, and we have a different idea about what is the better rule.

My position: I don't think there is any reason at all why a GM should do anything other than an exactly randomized role assignment. I don't think there is a problem to be solved by GM preference here. And I think that making it murky (1) adds a guesswork about GM preference element into the game that isn't desirable and (2) makes it unfair for players who may not get to play certain roles that they would like to play.
Sorry if I made you feel I put the "cheat" in your mouth, Balki. I am saying "cheating" here in the sense that the rules are not being followed, although I believe this is happening with good intentions on the part of those who are doing it. I think those intentions are based on a misguided notion of the GM-as-storyteller rather than the GM-as-referee, and that such a view objectifies players, undermines their agency, and degrades the richness of plurality... but that is probably a philosophical digression for a different time.

I think that if a GM feels they should have the option to adjust the results of a random role assignment, they should specify this in the setup. Jamie has provided a good framework. I think this is important because everyone is playing the game on the basis that the roles are assigned randomly. If they are instead being assigned by GM fiat, it is not the same game.

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