Twenty Questions Game the Ninety-Sixth

by **Kakarroto** » Tue Mar 07, 2023 10:13 pm

I'm not sure if you all noticed, but I took a bit time off to rethink and to get a bit of distance to clear my mind.

Looking back, I still think it isn't handled perfectly, but I also can understand that I didn't react perfectly too. Which is fine, since people aren't perfect. If it works for you, that's fine. I still believe there is a chance this all comes back and bites someone in their behind, but I hope you can manage.

Now why do I speak in this 'you' language? Because I personally wont have much time beginning with the 20th and currently I don't have much drive to play this game so I probably wont for a longer time. Have fun and take care. Hope there is more 'see you' than 'good riddance'.

Anyway, there is one thing I can't ignore on top of that, so let me reply:

JECE wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 03, 2023 2:03 pm
My goodness, mate. I always have a natural inclination to see the best in people, but this is pushing it.

I personally doubt this trait of your character, from the posts I've seen from you I've got another impression, but I'll come back to this later since you contradict yourself later in your own post.

At this point you are moving the goalposts given that you now accept that I did not simply do a pure guessing streak. So I can't help you come to see my point of view anymore since I can only expect you to find some other excuse to stay outraged.

I never moved any posts or goals. I don't accept it was not a pure guessing streak, you are either twisting my words or misunderstanding me. I said that finding those options for the guesses had the same thought/research process behind like I did. That doesn't take anything away from my argument.

The whole point is that there were (rationally) only 3 correct options left and you took it all by pure guessing. Not letting anything open for others, not trying to be witty and using the game by sorting, just pure, guessing, wanting to win despite the game or others.

I'm not sure if you unintentionally twist that or with a sinister mind, but with all those actions on top of it my personal opinion about you doesn't get any better.

As to future games, take a look at my Ten Commandments in Game XCVII. I took a different approach to resolving concerns that have come up in the past. But seriously, if in a given game there are only three options left and we still have 10+ questions left to ask, then such a game is about to end, no matter what we do with the rules.

I didn't say the game wasn't about to end, it was about fairness and respect for the game and that you lacked both of them. That you still don't understand that part (or at least keep ignoring it) is mind boggling. You throw out all those things but you don't respond to the argument.

Just make your guesses next time rather than stay up late and try to jump in and steal the win from beneath an unwitting teammate.

I always have a natural inclination to see the best in people

Yes, definitely. You totally try to see the best in people. I can totally see that.

I didn't stay up to steal anything. Sure, I wanted to win a round and did my best to get an advantage in time, sorting the novels and characters as fast as I could and thinking of what to ask and whom of the three to guess, but stealing is just wrong here, especially with your self description. Anyone seeing the best in people would've acknowledged or at least considered that I tried to find a solution, but not to 'steal'. If you really believe your description, I suggest that you have a look at yourself again and re-evalue. You either are lying to others or yourself.

Anyway, from my post after your guess streak you can see I tried to solve this, my instincts here to ask questions and guess only with a clause. Accusing of 'stealing' here is just absolutely wrong.

Personally, I think you know all that and just try to deflect from yourself, but I can be wrong here. If so, try to reflect and stop lying to yourself.

Now then, I'll go to a game of mafia where at least the people are honest and can be trusted.

by **han-shahanshah** » Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:30 am

I'm sorry, @Kakarroto, I didn't check this thread after I awarded JECE the victory. I suppose I sacrificed part of the integrity of the game for the sake of hastening its end, but I hadn't instituted a rule against it.

You're not wrong in your opinion, and I agree that unremedied issues are bound to degenerate the game. However, I also believe that the clarification of rules is a sufficient improvement to prevent this. After all, the players here are certainly law-abiding persons with some sense of ethics (may be stretching this a little bit for a Diplomacy forum but surely nobody has committed serious crime).

For the purposes of Twenty Questions, which is still in essence a fun game to play and not the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, it is natural to have some latitude in interpretation of expectations. Where some interpretations fall short and cause discord, we fix those expectations to satisfy the consensus. This is how the legal system is codified.

As dargorygel said:

dargorygel wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 02, 2023 9:36 pm
Any rule changes do not effect past games. Any cat jail does not effect future dinners.

Of course, I as the GM for this game may apply appropriate punishment to JECE as per your liking. Nothing too harsh, it's not like he murdered you.

@JECE I hereby present you with an Official Slap On The Wrist. You have been rebuked.

by **JECE** » Fri Mar 03, 2023 2:03 pm

My goodness, mate. I always have a natural inclination to see the best in people, but this is pushing it.

At this point you are moving the goalposts given that you now accept that I did not simply do a pure guessing streak. So I can't help you come to see my point of view anymore since I can only expect you to find some other excuse to stay outraged.

As to future games, take a look at my Ten Commandments in Game XCVII. I took a different approach to resolving concerns that have come up in the past. But seriously, if in a given game there are only three options left and we still have 10+ questions left to ask, then such a game is about to end, no matter what we do with the rules. Just make your guesses next time rather than stay up late and try to jump in and steal the win from beneath an unwitting teammate.

by **Kakarroto** » Fri Mar 03, 2023 1:23 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 02, 2023 5:14 pm

What are you even talking about?

What do you want us to do?

Ban JECE from playing?

Fine him $200?

Throw him in jail?

Throw his cats in cat jail?

Get a grip. It's a fun little game. Have some sense of perspective.

I'm sorry I took a bit to reply to this. I wanted to have a bit of time to sort my thoughts.

What exactly I want us to do here? I'm not sure, but at least something to show that it wasn't right to do so and some symbolic action (maybe a clap on the wrist) to definitely show it's not just talk.

These are probably just overblown options, but no, I don't want him banned. I don't want to make him pay money. Jail (especially RL) is much to harsh so definitely no. His cats are innocent here and I'm against throwing innocent people into jail (though if JECE could prove it was his cats that typed those post(s) I'm open to talk about that).

Yes, it was a fun little game, but JECE ruined a part of it, at least for me. Maybe I'm in the minority here, maybe I'm the only one that sees it this way, but I see those actions as something that can cause major trouble in the future if we don't deal with it correctly.

I'm a bit sour with your comment 'have some sense of perspective'. It might be used in an ironic and/or sarcastic way, but it feels you yourself doesn't even try to see mine and just felt annoyed I said something.

by **Kakarroto** » Fri Mar 03, 2023 1:07 pm

JECE wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 03, 2023 4:44 am
Sheesh, why are you so sure that you know what is in my head? As I wrote above, I did not ask the questions in random order. I did my research. I used process of elimination (after reading through all the questions that had been asked and skimming through the five articles) to rule out Nastasya Filippovna (woman) and Fyodor Karamazov (died). I then basically ranked the questions based on how long the articles for the remaining characters were and guessed Prince Myshkin since his article is much longer than the other two. That Fyodor Karamazov, a fellow character from The Brothers Karamazov, had already been guessed seemed to suggest that Alyosha Karamazov was not as important a character in his book as Prince Myshkin and Rodion Raskolnikov might be in their own books. So I went with Rodion Raskolnikov for my second guess less than a minute later. If you check the timestamps you can see that it took me another seven minutes before I decided that I might as well guess Alyosha Karamazov too, even if he was unlikely to be the answer.

I had the same thought progress about elimination, could instantly take out Nastasya, had the same four out there and read careful their pages and could also reduce Fyodor because of the speech on his grave. I did practically the same steps in research as you, was just a few minutes short to post since I also thought about how to best reduce that pool by a question and not just guess it. I've never even considered the idea to just post these three guesses because that would just be ... unthinkable.

You just confirm it yourself, you didn't think about it as questions, only as guesses and ranking the options. This is the point I criticise! At this point, at least for english wikipedia pages, those three options were the only possible guesses. In a few seconds you grabbed 66.6 (periodically) percent of possible guesses, seven minutes later you took the full 100 percent. Without trying to outwit your opponents with a question. You didn't care about the game or others, you just cared about the result and kicked everyone else playing somewhere it hurts.

Your actions don't lie, or did I misinterpret them because you were totally thinking something else?

The GM hinted that the game was as good as over, which I interpreted as the GM wanting the game to end:
han-shahanshah wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 02, 2023 3:52 am
That makes it go to the next player on here I guess, as there are only so many Dostoyevsky characters on Wikipedia.

That doesn't mean you are the only one left playing and trying. We had longer games and games where people wanted to end sooner, but to my memory we didn't have a situation like this. I'm not even sure how you could've come to the idea that nobody would play on with that answer from the GM only 45 minutes before you posted your guess streak in a Forum that spans world wide with different time zones.

Also keep in mind, Kakarroto (just realizing now how funny that name sounds in Spanish), that your legalistic argument falls flat when you consider I still had a free guess available to me.

(my name also sounds funny in german and other languages)

Just because something is 'free' doesn't mean it isn't additional. It means that you don't have to pay for it.

But if you want to bring free guesses in, you robbed every other player their free guesses by grabbing all the valid options for yourself with your actions.

===

Look, I don't do this here because I feel robbed of a win or something. I'm pretty sure I would've lost any pure guess battle because my prefered list was 1) Alyosha 2) Prince Myshkin and 3) Rodion; but I totally feel that this game was ruined by that 100% triple guess streak.

There was nothing left over for others that played and invested the same (if not more) time in sorting the works and characters out. There was no intent to play the game with sorting the three characters with questions. It was at a time where Europe was deep in the night and most players couldn't react to anything. (ok that last point is only partly relevant because there will always be times where there is a breakthrough and multiple players work it out in short notice, but this is not a situation with multiple players) (also personally, I stayed up to try to not miss a hint because I was invested in this and I noticed han posts more often at such times)

I wouldn't have said anything if you had stayed with your two initial guesses. (I might not like it but I'd still consider that in the regions of fairness.) I wouldn't have said anything if you thought about an elaborate plan to ask two questions with "if yes/no clauses" to sort through the characters on basis of their characteristics even if in that process you'd kinda guess all three, but that would show a respect to the game even when fairness wasn't included in that, but I could begrudgingly accept that action.

But, as I said, you neither had respect nor fairness in mind with that triple guess streak, but only the result. You might say we can't see into your head, but your actions are there to speak for you. I also can't read any hint of regret or any form of excuse in that answer. Only arguments and justifications. It reads as if JECE thinks he is absolutely in the right and has done nothing wrong and will do it again in the future. If we let this go through without consequences, future games will be less fun and we likely experience a downward spiral from here on out. At least, this is what I believe.

by **JECE** » Fri Mar 03, 2023 4:44 am

Kakarroto wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 02, 2023 4:27 pm
The argument 'but it was the second guess anyway' also doesn't matter in that regard. It was a pure guessing streak. If there was a sign to outwit others by putting in conditional questions (like "is this character described as to be be "truly christian" in the wikipedia page' and then putting "if yes, then is it prince myshkin, if no, is it Rodion Raskolnikov?"), that would've been ok in my mind since that's what the game is about. But that didn't happen, it was a pure guessing streak.

Sheesh, why are you so sure that you know what is in my head? As I wrote above, I did not ask the questions in random order. I did my research. I used process of elimination (after reading through all the questions that had been asked and skimming through the five articles) to rule out Nastasya Filippovna (woman) and Fyodor Karamazov (died). I then basically ranked the questions based on how long the articles for the remaining characters were and guessed Prince Myshkin since his article is much longer than the other two. That Fyodor Karamazov, a fellow character from The Brothers Karamazov, had already been guessed seemed to suggest that Alyosha Karamazov was not as important a character in his book as Prince Myshkin and Rodion Raskolnikov might be in their own books. So I went with Rodion Raskolnikov for my second guess less than a minute later. If you check the timestamps you can see that it took me another seven minutes before I decided that I might as well guess Alyosha Karamazov too, even if he was unlikely to be the answer.

Kakarroto wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 02, 2023 4:27 pm
The argument 'people wanted it to end' might be true, but there were also people who wanted to play it out. Sure, it might've dragged a bit, but other games did so in the past too, a hint by the GM is the much better solution. But still, just because some want to end it sooner is not a good argument for ruining the game for others who want to still play it. Or do you all think I'm wrong with this stance/idea?

The GM hinted that the game was as good as over, which I interpreted as the GM wanting the game to end:

han-shahanshah wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 02, 2023 3:52 am
That makes it go to the next player on here I guess, as there are only so many Dostoyevsky characters on Wikipedia.

Also keep in mind, Kakarroto (just realizing now how funny that name sounds in Spanish), that your legalistic argument falls flat when you consider I still had a free guess available to me.

by **JECE** » Fri Mar 03, 2023 4:10 am

dargorygel wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 03, 2023 2:33 am

damo666 wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 02, 2023 11:20 pm

dargorygel wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 02, 2023 9:36 pm
Any rule changes do not effect past games. Any cat jail does not effect future dinners.
affect
Oops

A cat jail does in fact effect future dinners if the captivity facilitates eating cats.

by **dargorygel** » Fri Mar 03, 2023 2:33 am

damo666 wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 02, 2023 11:20 pm

dargorygel wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 02, 2023 9:36 pm
Any rule changes do not effect past games. Any cat jail does not effect future dinners.
affect

Oops

by **Jamiet99uk** » Fri Mar 03, 2023 1:33 am

I suggest that JECE incorporate a new rule, and that's all.

by **damo666** » Thu Mar 02, 2023 11:20 pm

dargorygel wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 02, 2023 9:36 pm
Any rule changes do not effect past games. Any cat jail does not effect future dinners.

affect

by **dargorygel** » Thu Mar 02, 2023 9:36 pm

Any rule changes do not effect past games. Any cat jail does not effect future dinners.

by **Octavious** » Thu Mar 02, 2023 5:32 pm

As amusingly OTT as it is, there's something appealing about Kakarroto's enthusiasm. I don't mind it at all.

Don't mind the idea of gaoling JECE either, come to think of it... Bit harsh on the cats, though

by **Jamiet99uk** » Thu Mar 02, 2023 5:14 pm

Kakarroto wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 02, 2023 4:27 pm
I don't think allowing someone to go through with a situation without consequences and then trying to implement a rule against this situation is a good thing. Politicians try to do that all the way and we are better than them, right?

Personally, I would not respect such a rule, period.

The argument 'but it was the second guess anyway' also doesn't matter in that regard. It was a pure guessing streak. If there was a sign to outwit others by putting in conditional questions (like "is this character described as to be be "truly christian" in the wikipedia page' and then putting "if yes, then is it prince myshkin, if no, is it Rodion Raskolnikov?"), that would've been ok in my mind since that's what the game is about. But that didn't happen, it was a pure guessing streak.

The argument 'people wanted it to end' might be true, but there were also people who wanted to play it out. Sure, it might've dragged a bit, but other games did so in the past too, a hint by the GM is the much better solution. But still, just because some want to end it sooner is not a good argument for ruining the game for others who want to still play it. Or do you all think I'm wrong with this stance/idea?

Anyway, if we implement a rule that states firmly that we aren't allowed to guess more than twice in a row (in addition to asking a question twice in a row), we have to do something about the result of the game. Maybe my 'voiding the game' was too strict, so how about this: the game itself does count, JECE is declared winner and creates the next question, but he doesn't receive a full point for the overall score, only half a point (0.5). This would reflect that we still honour his guess (he was faster than others, after all), but we condemn the method (even if it might've been accidentally from JECE). Half a point is also a tie breaker if JECE is tied with someone in the overall score, so it will still help him out in this regard.

Maybe there is another, better solution, but if we do nothing but implement the rule, we lose the moral ground for the implementation in the future. Is this acceptable for you all?

What are you even talking about?

What do you want us to do?

Ban JECE from playing?

Fine him $200?

Throw him in jail?

Throw his cats in cat jail?

Get a grip. It's a fun little game. Have some sense of perspective.

by **Octavious** » Thu Mar 02, 2023 4:49 pm

Heaven forfend that the winner of the controversial game 96 is remembered years from now with the same reverence as the winners of 17 and 43

by **Kakarroto** » Thu Mar 02, 2023 4:27 pm

I don't think allowing someone to go through with a situation without consequences and then trying to implement a rule against this situation is a good thing. Politicians try to do that all the way and we are better than them, right?

Personally, I would not respect such a rule, period.

The argument 'but it was the second guess anyway' also doesn't matter in that regard. It was a pure guessing streak. If there was a sign to outwit others by putting in conditional questions (like "is this character described as to be be "truly christian" in the wikipedia page' and then putting "if yes, then is it prince myshkin, if no, is it Rodion Raskolnikov?"), that would've been ok in my mind since that's what the game is about. But that didn't happen, it was a pure guessing streak.

The argument 'people wanted it to end' might be true, but there were also people who wanted to play it out. Sure, it might've dragged a bit, but other games did so in the past too, a hint by the GM is the much better solution. But still, just because some want to end it sooner is not a good argument for ruining the game for others who want to still play it. Or do you all think I'm wrong with this stance/idea?

Anyway, if we implement a rule that states firmly that we aren't allowed to guess more than twice in a row (in addition to asking a question twice in a row), we have to do something about the result of the game. Maybe my 'voiding the game' was too strict, so how about this: the game itself does count, JECE is declared winner and creates the next question, but he doesn't receive a full point for the overall score, only half a point (0.5). This would reflect that we still honour his guess (he was faster than others, after all), but we condemn the method (even if it might've been accidentally from JECE). Half a point is also a tie breaker if JECE is tied with someone in the overall score, so it will still help him out in this regard.

Maybe there is another, better solution, but if we do nothing but implement the rule, we lose the moral ground for the implementation in the future. Is this acceptable for you all?

by **damo666** » Thu Mar 02, 2023 3:55 pm

dargorygel wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 02, 2023 1:21 pm
Personally, regardless of any unofficial official policy, if I ever win again I will be counting the 'if-then' questions as questions.

You'll never win again now!

by **dargorygel** » Thu Mar 02, 2023 1:22 pm

I understand JECE's explanation. At this point in this particular game, he was trying to finish, NOT trying to win.

by **dargorygel** » Thu Mar 02, 2023 1:21 pm

Personally, regardless of any unofficial official policy, if I ever win again I will be counting the 'if-then' questions as questions.

by **JECE** » Thu Mar 02, 2023 12:49 pm

han-shahanshah wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 02, 2023 5:21 am

Kakarroto wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 02, 2023 4:49 am
However, there is one possibility we aren't sure about so I'm asking it right now: "Does the person we're searching have an english wikipedia page?"
Yes. I kind of gave it away here:
han-shahanshah wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 01, 2023 5:35 pm
Haha, you can now brute force the Wikipedia category.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category: ... th_century

Ah, for some reason I completely skipped over the "brute force" paragraph! I found the subcategory all on my own, ha ha.

by **JECE** » Thu Mar 02, 2023 12:41 pm

I'll do that, and otherwise revert to the old 'normal' rules.

I made multiple guesses to get this round over with (as noted, it had been dragging on) and because I had checked and there were still a ton of questions left to ask (so I wasn't sabotaging the 'team's' chances).

To be fair, I had forgotten about the new 2-consecutive-question rule and if I had recalled that rule I would have thought that it was in force. However, as already noted, I still would have won by guessing correctly on the second try. I asked the questions/made the guesses in order, not randomly.

Twenty Questions Game the Ninety-Sixth

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