Now, as far as a solution to the perplextiy problem. The GMs can refuse a player to play, and in the past these actions have been toxic and met with backlash. It is alot of drama. It is bad publicity, and it reflects poorly on the community to have to publicly tell a player they cant play. As we have seen even with this current issue happening there is a herd mentality here. "US" vs the "GM", or "US vs the "Kouncil" and it spreads like wildfire. it becomes easy and fun and popular to rush to the defense of some thing.

A gm tells someone they cant play, and a flood of people rush to join the disenfranchised person: "if he cant play then im not playing either", "why isnt he allowed to play why are you denying someone from playing".

And of course there is also the opposite "why is he being allowed to play he should be banned", "if he plays im not singing up, nope, not dealing with that".

A GMs game should not become a forum for exacting players personal desires for retribution upon other players. Our job as a GM is to act as a recruiter, a creator, an administrator, a judge, and a caretaker. We have plenty of duties. Deciding on if a player is maybe too unethical to allow to play when they maybe dont even have a formal sanction from the kouncil is going to create toxic drama and negativity, right smack in the middle of when the GM is just trying their heart out to fill their player lists.

As such, I am opposed to the GM telling people they cant play as any solution to how to avoid reranding a setup, or handpicking a rand that causes less damage. I still think this falls under the GM may make these decisions as needed in extreme situations clause.

The only other solution would be the kouncil can bar players from playing who they feel would complicate things.

The only person this level of authority was enacted on was chippeerock who the ban for signups when even above the kouncil, and became an issue for the actual moderation team of webdip, saying he would not be allowed to post or try to signup in these games.

I havent heard someone suggest how to create a fair and drama free system for this. but I also am aware there have been mafia invitational games where only certain players were permitted to sign up, and that was also somewhat shitty as it created cliques within the community of "acceptable" player types, and left out people who were basically just degenerate in their play style. I of course was not invited to that game, and I think doing games like that should probably just be done somewhere else or on a discord, and not meant to make people feel unwelcomed.

thoughts?

Thanks for the clarification brain.

I was talking to sweetandcool last night and it occurred to me that this whole dialogue began as a result of some things I said that lacked clarity. Specifically when I said I make 1-2 adjustments, or that I rand the setup 3 times.

What my system entails is I take the list and make three rolls. the adjustments are having the two extra rolls. As was previously mentioned there was only one time ever where a person with severe character issues signed up for a game and I took measures to protect the game by just choosing 2 rands where he was VT. this was however a 1 off scenario.

In all other scenarios, I would rand the setup 3 times and then go to my co gm and ask them to pick 1 2 or 3. they would not be told what was in the rand, and they would not see what they were picking.

So in this case, you were saying I was handpicking which of the three I wanted, what I was actually doing was having my co gm blind pick what rand we are going with. the only handpicking was in the one instance where one of the rands was thrown out that had a problem player put into an important role. the result was forced to make him a vt on the other two rands, not by handpicking but literally by the rand itself.

The other examples of times where this happened was a game where worcej was my co gm, I randed the setup and realized that enrollment was so abysmally low for magic the gathering mafia, that only 10 players had signed up. So I asked worcej to play instead. and the game was able to be 11 players, and we reranded as a result to get more players into the game.

I think what you guys are asking for is well intentioned, but I also think that you are trying to apply a hard rule on top of everything even though you have all accepted there should also be other types of rands, and that it should be part of the setup. In the end, the GM should be the ultimate authority over their own game, its setup, and its responsibly administered rand.

This debate was caused by a joke I made in postgame of M88, one which implied I am handpicking the way my setup randomizes and then moving people around. What my comment about adjustments means is there are three rands, and then they are randomly picked from without much concern for the result. to avoid me handpicking, and to incorporate my co gm being part of the process, this has always been the final step was them to pick a random number.

I hope this clears the confusion up and explains my system better? ive been very confused last few days wondering why any of this was even an issue, and I think this is probably why.

Werewolf and Mafia both fall into damo's hat of secret role games. Personally, "Werewolf" reminds me of either Ultimate Werewolf or One Night Ultimate Werewolf, but as far as forum games go they're mostly a choice of flavor.

damo666 wrote: ↑

Wed May 22, 2024 11:22 am

kingofthepirates wrote: ↑

Wed May 22, 2024 11:15 am

damo666 wrote: ↑

Wed May 22, 2024 10:08 am

There are 2380 possible scumteams of which 5 would lead to a reroll. That is 475-1 against, or 1 chance in 476.

I am not bunny, but from my quick maths, I only got 5 scum teams that need rerolling. Are you using permutations or combinations? I think it should be combinations here, which leads to 5 teams of all new/new people and lurker (pick one person to ignore)

You seem to be agreeing with me.

Pardon me, my brain seems to be a jumbled mess. Yes, your math is mathing. I misread it as 2380 scum teams needing rerolling and skipped over the 5 bit all together. I will now proceed to excuse myself and wallow in embarrassment due to my lack of paying attention and/or sight…

kingofthepirates wrote: ↑

Wed May 22, 2024 11:15 am

damo666 wrote: ↑

Wed May 22, 2024 10:08 am

There are 2380 possible scumteams of which 5 would lead to a reroll. That is 475-1 against, or 1 chance in 476.

I am not bunny, but from my quick maths, I only got 5 scum teams that need rerolling. Are you using permutations or combinations? I think it should be combinations here, which leads to 5 teams of all new/new people and lurker (pick one person to ignore)

You seem to be agreeing with me.

damo666 wrote: ↑

Wed May 22, 2024 10:08 am

There are 2380 possible scumteams of which 5 would lead to a reroll. That is 475-1 against, or 1 chance in 476.

I am not bunny, but from my quick maths, I only got 5 scum teams that need rerolling. Are you using permutations or combinations? I think it should be combinations here, which leads to 5 teams of all new/new people and lurker (pick one person to ignore)

To put things in perspective I just thought I'd explore how rare a reroll due to an all new player scumteam actually is and its affect.

Let's assume a 13 town v 4 scum game with 5 new players signed up (which in itself is pretty unlikely - but includes say 4 new + 1 notorious lurker/flaker).

There are 2380 possible scumteams of which 5 would lead to a reroll. That is 475-1 against, or 1 chance in 476.

From a town player's pov (who is not one of the 5) it reduces the number of possible scumteams from 1820 to 1815 or 1 in 364.

From the pov of one of the 5 themselves it reduces the number of possible scumteams from 1820 to 1819.

Obviously if there were only 4 new/lurkys the chances are even tinier.

Conclusion: it's not significant.

@Bunny check my arithmetic please.

colborn wrote: ↑

Wed May 22, 2024 5:07 am

I have a small question about Mafia then: on the first turn I see people often call out "obvscums" – is that simply guesses to start the conversation or is there somehow some way of actually feeling it?

I feel like in this community we don't throw that term around very much during the first day. However, to answer your question, I would say that sometimes it's intuition based on previous experiences, that can lead a player to correctly guess the alignment of another player. Or it can be a reaction test, to cause some drama in the game to see how players react.

If you are interested in our community, I recommend reading through some of our last game, to get a feel for what it is like playing Mafia on this forum: https://webdiplomacy.net/contrib/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5389

Or you can dive straight into playing and experience it firsthand: https://webdiplomacy.net/contrib/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5443

dargorygel wrote: ↑

Tue May 21, 2024 11:38 pm

Rest assured that the Kouncil, new and older, are considering, reading, discussing, pondering, and rolling random numbers: a response is forthcoming, or fifthcoming,

And if we don't like the answer we roll again....

Looked around online to be sure and it seems that most people think Werewolf and Mafia are basically the same:

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgamefamily/2989/game-werewolf-mafia
https://www.reddit.com/r/boardgames/comments/4a3ktt/mafia_vs_werewolf/

I have a small question about Mafia then: on the first turn I see people often call out "obvscums" – is that simply guesses to start the conversation or is there somehow some way of actually feeling it?

As for gaming here, I'm a high school teen and my parents don't like Diplomacy, so lol I'm playing Gunboat practice against the bots but am afraid of getting busted and computer banned and missing turns for games with real people. Later if things change I'll be super excited to play.

dargorygel wrote: ↑

Wed May 22, 2024 4:13 am

@colborn (or colbot)

Welcome to webdip... are you playing any games yet?

The thread you are writing is is dedicated to Mafia. Many of us have played werewolf, but are playing mafia here, based out of this thread, dedicated to mafia, with tradition and infrastructure built around that game. We do not see it as luck oriented, but rather deduction and induction.

If you desire to start a forum werewolf game, feel free to do it on the forum game section of the forum.

Also, are you a bot?

Hi! I'm not a bot. I wasn't aware of the difference between Mafia and Werewolf and thought the latter is just a specific setting based on the former, so assumed this is the right place to come to for proposing a Werewolf game. Sorry for disturbing you guys, then.

@colborn (or colbot)

Welcome to webdip... are you playing any games yet?

The thread you are writing is is dedicated to Mafia. Many of us have played werewolf, but are playing mafia here, based out of this thread, dedicated to mafia, with tradition and infrastructure built around that game. We do not see it as luck oriented, but rather deduction and induction.

If you desire to start a forum werewolf game, feel free to do it on the forum game section of the forum.

Also, are you a bot?

im not saying this guy is a bot but

Hi. I'm new to wD and have not played Mafia before, but I looked over the game and thought it's kind of fun. Unfortunately it seems pretty luck-based IMO (unlike Diplomacy!) because there are few pieces of genuine, verifiable information.

Here in China we have our own Mafia variant and we call it Werewolves. Since the variant rules are known by basically everyone across the entire country (worth more credit than Westerners usually give – China is very culturally diverse and anything shared across the country is hence definitely very influential), I believe they have proven to be fun and sophisticated through test of time & natural selection.

Hence here I put forward a proposal for a 16-player game of Werewolves! There are many different sets of Saints and special Wolves which can alter the gameplay drastically, but here I'm suggesting one that I find the most interesting.

Roles: 18 roles (for only 16 people), of which the Ghost and one other role will be discarded after Night 0 (see "Thief" character description for details).

Good Guys: 5 x Peasants, 5 x Saints (Prophet + Witch + Hunter + Guardian + Knight)
Bad Guys: 3 x Werewolves, 1 x Mutant, 1 x Devil
Neutrals: 1 x Ghost, 1 x Angel, 1 x Cupid

Also, the GM is usually called "Arbiter," "Judge," or "God." I personally prefer "God".

Backstory: Our story is set in a Victorian village after the Black Death. Due to [insert weird and super duper cool plot excuse here], an ancient and deadly virus has infected some of the people in the village... The Werewolves, worshippers of Satan, swear to curse and bring down the village! The Saints vow to protect everyone with their powers, and some other people, possessed by spirits, have their own schemes...

Game Cycle:
The game starts with Night 0, which involves a lot of uninformed guesswork and pre-game preparation. It's like the opening of Gunboat Diplomacy, where the tone is set without much real info appearing. Then the game goes Day 1, Night 1, Day 2, Night 2, and so forth.
Night 0 Procedure: Ghost chooses identity, Cupid chooses Lovers, Lovers see each other's identities (also sees who Cupid is only if they become Sinners), Bad Guys meet and decide on who to kill, Witch learns of the werewolves' kill decision and decides whether to potion, Prophet checks.
Day Procedure: Discussion, Voting
Normal Night Procedure: Bad Guys meet and decide on who to kill, Witch learns of the werewolves' kill decision and decides whether to potion, Prophet checks

MECHANISM: If multiple people tie in the vote they have another round of speaking and getting voted on. If it's still a tie no one dies.
MECHANISM: Prayers. People who die on Night 0 and people who get voted out can state their prayers (i.e. share info) after being declared dead – before actually being out of the game. Anyone who dies on nights besides Night 0 have no prayers.
NOTE: You can always still participate normally until you are officially declared dead by God, even if you have been killed and no one saves you. (for instance, on Night 0 even if the Bad Guys kill the Prophet and the Witch does not use the elixir, the Prophet – not knowing their fate – still gets to check during the night, so he can still leave a prayer to convey the result of his night check).

Goals (Win Conditions):
Good Guys: If all Bad Guys AND Sinners are dead, the Good Guys win.
Bad Guys: If all Sinners are dead AND the village is paralyzed, the Bad Guys win.
DEFINITION: The village is paralyzed if all villagers are dead (so there is no one to be protected) or if all saints are dead (so there is no one to protect).
Sinners: You win only if everyone else is dead! This is like a solo win in Diplomacy – very hard to pull off but super duper cool if you manage to!

Character Descriptions:

Peasants: You know nothing. Vote, think, and stay alive!
Prophet: Every night you can check one person (you can also choose not to). God will tell you whether he scans good or bad. (Note: Lovers scan as their original allegiances even if they become sinners. Angel and Cupid always scan good. Ghost scans as the allegiance of whoever he becomes.) But if you try to check the Devil, you die.
Witch: You have an elixir of life (a.k.a. good potion) and a venom of death (a.k.a. bad potion). On any night you can choose to use one of them on one person (you may not use potions on yourself and you may not use both potions on the same night). Note you only have one potion of each kind for the entire game! Use once and they are consumed forever. Whoever gets killed by werewolves during the night can be saved by the elixir (every night you will know who the werewolves want to kill). Anyone except the Devil who gets killed by you using the venom will die no matter what, and may not shoot during the day if they are the Hunter. But if you try to poison the Devil, you die and the Devil will not die. If you use the elixir on someone who is being guarded by the Guardian, that person still dies – very cool death! (because the death requires being killed by werewolves + guarded by the Guardian + elixired by the Witch).
Hunter: During the night, if you die, God will tell you whether you can Last Word or not (you can Last Word as long as the cause of death is not being poisoned by the Witch). If you can, during the day you can (you can also choose not to) reveal your identity and shoot someone before you die. Anyone who gets shot will die no matter what. If you die in the day (from Mutant's lunge or from being voted out), you can also shoot.
Guardian: During the night you can choose to guard one person (you can also choose not to). Anyone who gets guarded during the night is immune from werewolf kills (but not from the Witch's venom). Whoever gets guarded for two nights in a row dies from overprotection. However, if the person you guard is targeted by werewolves and the Witch also tries to save them, that person still dies – cool death! (because the death requires being killed by werewolves + guarded by the Guardian + elixired by the Witch).
Knight: At any time in the day before voting, you can reveal your identity and duel anyone. If they scan good, you die. If they scan bad, they die. See Prophet for scanning rules.

Werewolves: You know your teammates and their roles (the other 2 wolves plus the Mutant and the Devil). Kill wisely and speak wisely to win! During the night, all Bad Guys will gather to discuss who to kill. But this is not a vote: if the Bad Guys fail to decide on who to kill, no one gets killed by werewolves on that night. The killed person can also be a fellow Werewolf (but not the Devil and Mutant)! (Commonly this is done on Night 0, betting that the Witch wastes the elixir on saving that guy. Or on deciding that that person is a Sinner.)
Mutant: If you get voted out, you can reveal your identity and lunge for anyone, killing them before you die. Any other way of death (including getting shot by the Hunter) does not get you the chance to lunge.
Devil: You are the core of your team! You will not die during the night. If the Prophet tries to check you or the Witch tries to poison you, they die.
MECHANISM: Sacrifice. During any time in the day before voting, Werewolves and the Mutant (but not the Devil) can single-handedly declare self-sacrifice. You immediately die, but there will be no voting / discussion and the game directly advances to the night phase.

Ghost: If your identity is Ghost, God will come to you at the very beginning of Night 0 and show you the two remaining identities. If both the identities are Good / Bad / Neutral, you get to pick. Else, you must pick the Neutral over anything else, and pick the Bad over the Good. The other identity, plus the "Ghost" identity, will then be lost forever, and you become the identity you chose.
Angel: You solo win (yeah, only the one you!) for being the first person to be voted out. If you are not that person then you're the same as a normal Peasant for the rest of the game.
Cupid: On Night 0 you choose two people to become lovers (you cannot choose yourself!). If the lovers both scan good or both scan bad you're the same as a normal Peasant for the rest of the game (you do not know what scan result it is specifically, only that the results are the same). If one scans good and one scans bad, you and the two lovers become Sinners, who must to kill everyone else to win. Sinners will know the specific identities of the other two. Sinners or not, if one of the lovers dies for any reason the other immediately also dies.

kingofthepirates wrote: ↑

Wed May 22, 2024 1:11 am

dargorygel wrote: ↑

Tue May 21, 2024 11:38 pm

a response is forthcoming, or fifthcoming,

Nay, it must be thirdcoming, for three is the magic number! The number thou shalt count! the number of the counting! the third number! four shalt thou not count (and neither count thou 2, excepting that thou then proceed to three). Five is right out.
thus, I request that a response be thirdcoming, for that is the proper way...

attempting to inject some light hearted humor into this discussion, since it seems several people (NOT NAMING ANYONE) got a tad agitated. So enjoy a quote from peak comedy :).

And God said to John, “Come forth, and you shall receive eternal life”

But John came fifth, and won a toaster

kingofthepirates wrote: ↑

Wed May 22, 2024 1:11 am

dargorygel wrote: ↑

Tue May 21, 2024 11:38 pm

a response is forthcoming, or fifthcoming,

Nay, it must be thirdcoming, for three is the magic number! The number thou shalt count! the number of the counting! the third number! four shalt thou not count (and neither count thou 2, excepting that thou then proceed to three). Five is right out.
thus, I request that a response be thirdcoming, for that is the proper way...

attempting to inject some light hearted humor into this discussion, since it seems several people (NOT NAMING ANYONE) got a tad agitated. So enjoy a quote from peak comedy :).

One, Two, Five!

dargorygel wrote: ↑

Tue May 21, 2024 11:38 pm

a response is forthcoming, or fifthcoming,

Nay, it must be thirdcoming, for three is the magic number! The number thou shalt count! the number of the counting! the third number! four shalt thou not count (and neither count thou 2, excepting that thou then proceed to three). Five is right out.
thus, I request that a response be thirdcoming, for that is the proper way...

attempting to inject some light hearted humor into this discussion, since it seems several people (NOT NAMING ANYONE) got a tad agitated. So enjoy a quote from peak comedy :).