Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

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Expand view Topic review: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

by Hamilton Brian » Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:15 pm

And I wondered about a training program; sort of like the School of War. Probably be a massive undertaking.

Still a fan of 24/24 silent night

Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

by Hamilton Brian » Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:13 pm

Different people certainly come in displaying different tendencies.

I think there are newcomers (celaph? aarodactyl...?) who come in that seem to have a decent mind for the game. Myself, I came in fairly clueless. Desire to play, not sure how it works.

I think I held on to the "newb" factor a little long, but not meaningfully. There would be questions I would ask out of the pure desire to know: what does this mean, what did I miss and why did I miss it, etc.

Responses would run a spectrum: helpful to outright snark/disrespect.

I think I try to approach this in much the same way I approach most things in life. Appreciative (I hope it's known or I convey it) for the helpful ones, and try to ignore the disparaging ones. Try not to take it personally, it's a game, it's not worth the emotional energy, etc. If I am getting bent out of shape because of what someone has responded to me with, over the computer, that's on me. But it is also incumbent to me to try to remain polite and respectful.

I believe that this is also a game of feedback. It requires listening and responding. And sometimes it requires a slowing-down and rephrasing so that there is clarity. Don't assume clarity is in the message. If something isn't clear, ask for that clarification.

Not sure what the point of this is; maybe just a small reflection on my year playing mafia here. A dose of humility. An expectation to listen and to clarify. A measure of respect, hopefully mutual, treating others how one wishes to be treated.

Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

by damo666 » Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:09 am

Thanks worcej and my teammates.

The jester concept clearly unpopular and should be forgotten.

I like 24/24 and wasn't put out by no night chat but that may be because I was scum.

And JBH I hope you try again. You gotta play to learn and it's important to attract new players to stop the community becoming too 'samey' or 'cliquey'.

Some of us have a good insight into other people's play styles which is another reason to attract new players to keep us on our toes.

Bottom line, we should be welcoming to new players and perhaps a bit more forgiving in their first couple of games.

When I first played it was in a game for inexperienced players only (less than 5 games played from memory) and each player had a coach they could ask questions of and got critiqued by (I had Tom B).

Perhaps we repeat that and if so Johnny please sign up.

Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

by snowy801 » Sat Jul 10, 2021 11:35 pm

To expand on the "that is that and this is this", I mean to say there was a reason I used a few pages back Johnny coming into day 3 thinking bozo was jester as the boundary between acceptable and unacceptable stubbornness. Chaqa kindly laid out the logic at the end of day 2, and while it's hard to know the meta/mechanic answers when you're new and people should of course go out of their way to help out with this, it's much easier to internally verify an answer already revealed to you. My only criticism is that this bar is a minimum requirement you need to clear in order to participate in mafia in good faith.

I will be the first to say as the last remaining active experienced town in that game (rd was rightfully dodging as PR and Chaqa already said he's checked out for all that I think he played fine, and the rest were dead) I had a responsibility to clear that d2 and failed it.

But again, that is that and this is this.

Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

by snowy801 » Sat Jul 10, 2021 11:25 pm

ghug wrote:
Sat Jul 10, 2021 9:22 pm
snowy801 wrote:
Sat Jul 10, 2021 9:00 pm
Johnny Big Horse wrote:
Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:50 pm
But the other players seem to get all angry because I do not follow the crowd in thinking style or vote. I suppose if I voted Snowy in the end, they wouldn't have been disgusted with me, because then even if I was thinking wrongly, I was at least in tune with the rest of the group.
This is true, but you don't seem to grasp the point.

At that point it was factually known that either myself and rdrivera, or bozo were scum. You definitively declared that we were both town, and you declined to vote for either.

This is wrong. This is fundamentally wrong on a level that nobody else in the game was, and you still reject this premise days after the game, when others have gone out of their way to explain it to you. You cannot liken your mistakes to be anywhere near equivalent to foodcoats' or HB's. This is like 10 billion to 1 ratio of scale of error.

So you must understand equally how frustrating it is trying to explain things inside the game to you.

Again, take some time to observe some games (it doesn't have to be here) and try again. Any mafia community will react the same, I wager, and any will be equally be willing to play with you again once you work out these issues.
The flip side here is that when a player misses a mechanical fact or a post with an important claim, it's on the experienced townies to make sure it's explained to them. We had an absent player who was probably town, and four non-town players trying to influence the vote, which meant it was always going to be razor tight. Johnny's proving himself to be stubborn—an unreasonable trait, but also one that probably puts him in the majority here—but he's also smart enough to understand when something is explained to him clearly, and it's not exactly like Vecna and damo were in a position to straight up lie to him (though I was).

Your approach to the claims was to act like the answer and the correct course of action were the most obvious things in the fucking world, which they were to experienced players, but it's your responsibility as the townie in a precarious situation to try to get Johnny to understand as much as it's his to be receptive to it.
I recognized this after the fact. It did not occur to me at the time that anyone could get this wrong - an obvious error in retrospect that I intend to correct, and why I asked HB and especially food how they perceived that day 2.

But that is that, and this is this.

Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

by President Eden » Sat Jul 10, 2021 10:22 pm

Great post ghug and let me second this in particular:
ghug wrote:
Sat Jul 10, 2021 9:22 pm
The flip side here is that when a player misses a mechanical fact or a post with an important claim, it's on the experienced townies to make sure it's explained to them. We had an absent player who was probably town, and four non-town players trying to influence the vote, which meant it was always going to be razor tight. Johnny's proving himself to be stubborn—an unreasonable trait, but also one that probably puts him in the majority here—but he's also smart enough to understand when something is explained to him clearly, and it's not exactly like Vecna and damo were in a position to straight up lie to him (though I was).
I wasn't watching carefully enough to pass judgment on how anyone acted from a character perspective, but this was my reaction when I heard about how the game went. It's my understanding that the claims came super late in the phase, which certainly makes it hard to explain the situation thoroughly, but Johnny never had any trouble following anything I was explaining to him when we played together in M68, and I suspect it was helpful for him too. You just gotta take the time to do it. It's easy to forget after however many gazillion games of mafia some of us have played just how hard it is to learn town play and how we might take somewhat complex knowledge for granted. I think it's a completely natural reaction for a newer player who's unsure between two late-phase claims to stick to voting his top suspect, even though that suspect is outside the claims. It's an incorrect play, as others have pointed out, but it's undoubtedly the natural impulse.

I don't want to be all preachy on y'all, so let's be clear, I'm not pointing fingers at anybody or putting any blame on people. But I think if we can collectively make better efforts to help newer players follow along and give constructive critique rather than blame when they miss things, we'll all be better off for it.

Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

by dargorygel » Sat Jul 10, 2021 10:17 pm

And trying again does not mean repeating more loudly.

I do see there was education effort. There was as much impatience as there was stubbornness.

If course, I was dead. So it's easy for me to say.

Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

by ghug » Sat Jul 10, 2021 9:22 pm

snowy801 wrote:
Sat Jul 10, 2021 9:00 pm
Johnny Big Horse wrote:
Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:50 pm
But the other players seem to get all angry because I do not follow the crowd in thinking style or vote. I suppose if I voted Snowy in the end, they wouldn't have been disgusted with me, because then even if I was thinking wrongly, I was at least in tune with the rest of the group.
This is true, but you don't seem to grasp the point.

At that point it was factually known that either myself and rdrivera, or bozo were scum. You definitively declared that we were both town, and you declined to vote for either.

This is wrong. This is fundamentally wrong on a level that nobody else in the game was, and you still reject this premise days after the game, when others have gone out of their way to explain it to you. You cannot liken your mistakes to be anywhere near equivalent to foodcoats' or HB's. This is like 10 billion to 1 ratio of scale of error.

So you must understand equally how frustrating it is trying to explain things inside the game to you.

Again, take some time to observe some games (it doesn't have to be here) and try again. Any mafia community will react the same, I wager, and any will be equally be willing to play with you again once you work out these issues.
The flip side here is that when a player misses a mechanical fact or a post with an important claim, it's on the experienced townies to make sure it's explained to them. We had an absent player who was probably town, and four non-town players trying to influence the vote, which meant it was always going to be razor tight. Johnny's proving himself to be stubborn—an unreasonable trait, but also one that probably puts him in the majority here—but he's also smart enough to understand when something is explained to him clearly, and it's not exactly like Vecna and damo were in a position to straight up lie to him (though I was).

Your approach to the claims was to act like the answer and the correct course of action were the most obvious things in the fucking world, which they were to experienced players, but it's your responsibility as the townie in a precarious situation to try to get Johnny to understand as much as it's his to be receptive to it.

Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

by snowy801 » Sat Jul 10, 2021 9:02 pm

Also, like 3 town and a jester also thought Vecna was scum. It's just rude to pretend otherwise, because you're effectively boiling this down to "I'm just as wrong and right as you are" and that's just not true.

Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

by snowy801 » Sat Jul 10, 2021 9:00 pm

Johnny Big Horse wrote:
Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:50 pm
But the other players seem to get all angry because I do not follow the crowd in thinking style or vote. I suppose if I voted Snowy in the end, they wouldn't have been disgusted with me, because then even if I was thinking wrongly, I was at least in tune with the rest of the group.
This is true, but you don't seem to grasp the point.

At that point it was factually known that either myself and rdrivera, or bozo were scum. You definitively declared that we were both town, and you declined to vote for either.

This is wrong. This is fundamentally wrong on a level that nobody else in the game was, and you still reject this premise days after the game, when others have gone out of their way to explain it to you. You cannot liken your mistakes to be anywhere near equivalent to foodcoats' or HB's. This is like 10 billion to 1 ratio of scale of error.

So you must understand equally how frustrating it is trying to explain things inside the game to you.

Again, take some time to observe some games (it doesn't have to be here) and try again. Any mafia community will react the same, I wager, and any will be equally be willing to play with you again once you work out these issues.

Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

by dargorygel » Sat Jul 10, 2021 7:25 pm

Also... People pushed back against your not liking their logic, etc. Of course. And you didn't like them pushing back against you. Normal stuff.

Lastly... This is not OUR community. It is yours, too. You've played. 😁

Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

by President Eden » Sat Jul 10, 2021 6:44 pm

You're definitely wanted around, Johnny.

The mechanics issue here may not have been well-explained during the game. (I didn't follow much of the game at the time.)

But essentially, from the moment rivera and bozo were both claiming cop, the vote was going to be either for one of them, or for one of their claims:
1. If bozo is the cop, then snowy is mafia, because bozo used his ability and discovered from the GM that snowy is mafia. The vote on snowy was operating from the premise that this was true. (rivera is almost certainly also mafia in this case, but snowy HAS TO BE, whereas rivera could be Jester, or could be a dumb townie trying to be a hero.)
2. If bozo is not cop, then it is very highly likely that bozo is mafia or Jester. In that case, voting for bozo is 100% the right line, as you remove an anti-town player from the game.

You probably had a good case on Vecna. (Again, didn't keep up too well with the game so not sure.) You were right about him being mafia, so it can only have been so bad, and likely wasn't bad at all. :) But was it 100% guaranteed good? Because the choice everyone else was making this turn was pretty close to 100%. In this case, it wasn't about following the herd, but about ensuring that your chosen vote had the highest chance of hitting mafia.

If you weren't sure between them, that's fair. In that case, I think no-kill was a valid option due to the numbers present in the game at the time - town was effectively in MILO due to the presence of the Jester, and taking another turn cycle to figure out the best vote between the claims was highly reasonable.

But town couldn't afford to miss from here, and so it's important to make the highest-% vote possible, which was among the cop claims.



You have good instincts and you clearly love playing the game - you should stick around. I think you'll enjoy it and do very well.

Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

by Johnny Big Horse » Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:50 pm

dargorygel wrote:
Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:01 pm
Johnny Big Horse
I hope you don't stop playing.
You WANTED to play, which is the first characteristic that makes you a mafia player.
You were wrong.

But WE need to do a better job in post-game telling you exactly what was wrong, if you indeed want to know. And we seem to hesitate to do that kind of analysis. Maybe in PM instead of public thread.

But I will say, that a willingness to learn, instead of continuing to hunker down after the game, is a necessary ingredient to improving.

No... your 'vote' was not what lost the game. (Any more than any score in any sportsball game was THE score that won or lost.) But knowing now that you were wrong, maybe ask someone you trust in a PM what exactly you did wrong. Some of these folk want to be helpful.

From my perspective, even though you didn't ask... you seemed (and I could be wrong) to move to a position of 'trusting' what anyone was saying. I get this. Trusting in here is OH so hard. Because you know SOMEONE is lying, it is easy to assume everyone is lying. Does that make sense?
I trusted Hamilton this game. I trusted RDR as well.

But I did not trust Chaqa.

I was wrong thinking Bozo was the jester, sure. But so were just about everyone else. Being wrong seems to be part of what being a townie is all about.

The problem, as I see it, although it pisses everyone off when I mention it, is that most of the thinking and posting is utter garbage. People are trying, yes, in good faith, to figure out who the bad guys are. But they are using all their logical powers and basing them often on silly premises. And then they vote wrong. It is a hard game. These people who play are smart. I know.

This game I tried a different way. Rather than trying to follow these species arguments, I tried to go on gut and use my own sense. I read their arguments and based on that decided who I thought was mafia and who was town.

But the other players seem to get all angry because I do not follow the crowd in thinking style or vote. I suppose if I voted Snowy in the end, they wouldn't have been disgusted with me, because then even if I was thinking wrongly, I was at least in tune with the rest of the group. Better that than to think rightly all alone.

I said on Day 2 and after that Vecna was mafia, and nobody cared. I thought my case was good. But being a newbie and not understanding many of the mechanics of the game, I understand my words carried little weight.

I enjoyed playing, but I spoil it for the others. And this community is theirs. I respect that.

I appreciate your kind words though. But nobody wants to be where they are not wanted. It is a bad feeling.

Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

by ghug » Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:34 pm

dargorygel wrote:
Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:04 pm
To the rest of us.
We should never play this game again.
:-)

I'd appreciate, for the sake of the kouncil, comments on the balance. Eden and I didn't see this outcome as likely. What should we have noted?

AND... I sometimes use 'k' in council because I am implying sarcastically a Soviet Russia sort of behind the scenes powerful agency.

Thanks for GMing, worcej.

I suspect it will STILL be a little while before M69 is up and running. But not TOO long.
I think it's important to be counting the miskills. In a game with three mafia, town should be able to miskill at least two and preferably three times without losing, before considering swings one way or the other based on PRs. Two might have been sufficient here since it was a small game with a cup, but one is much too thin.

Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

by Hamilton Brian » Sat Jul 10, 2021 2:23 pm

dargorygel wrote:
Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:04 pm
To the rest of us.
We should never play this game again.
:-)
As in we shouldn't play mafia or this particular set-up?

Pulling from the wiki https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Jester

"Jester is held in profound distaste partly because it is easy to win with (any village idiot can get eliminated Day 1) and partly because even in the best case it punishes Town for eliminating someone who is not of their alignment.

Jesters have been seen with a few hindering modifiers attached to them, such as Even-Day (the Jester only wins if it is eliminated on an even-numbered Day) or a post restriction. In other games, players are told that there is a Jester in the game. This does not usually change that the Jester eventually wins.

Based on all of the above, Jester is generally considered a bastard role."

Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

by dargorygel » Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:59 pm

* you seemed UNABLE...

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