Betrayal Blues

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Expand view Topic review: Betrayal Blues

Re: Betrayal Blues

by MajorMitchell » Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:45 am

Lovely discussion and it gives me much pleasure to disagree with Octavious.
I dislike the stab yet have stabbed, occasionally, I try to avoid the need to stab, minimise my use of it.
I believe Diplomacy is about creating alliances to defeat common enemies, share rewards with some equity.

I don't believe there is a "one size fits all" response to a stab by the victim.
Each game has it's own dynamics, circumstances.
It's a series of choices, is defeating the stabber possible? That's always the best response, using Diplomacy to forge new alliances to defeat the stabber or prevent them from getting a solo win.

Stabs come in all forms, the petty foolish stabs of a weathercock who stabs every second or third move, to the late game stab of a long term ally to go for a solo win.
I prefer to react both emotionally and logically, but will often choose emotionally charged unorthodox responses, the extremes of "suicidal plays" or nuisance plays.
The "you do this to a long term loyal partner for a solo?" Well have it in four moves not eight" response in certain circumstances, no defence made, moves out of school leave them unoccupied, disbands instead of retreats. As far as I'm concerned it's a solo win based on a dishonourable act so it's worthless.
My favourite outcome is in Classic Diplomacy a draw with a long term ally where we have ~30 scs evenly split with a third player with ~4scs, with SoS scoring. Adapt that to the other variants, a good game with a draw and minimal stabs.
Plus the occasional win where good fortune and skill play get me a solo without having to stab a loyal ally, that rare honourable solo win.

Re: Betrayal Blues

by GracchusBabeuf » Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:28 pm

What are you lot on about?

Re: Betrayal Blues

by Sunstriker » Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:06 pm

I tend to do better being the stabbed vs doing the stabbing. Especially if I’ve had the ally for a while.

But if I see a path to a solo I’ll try to take it. (I’m not very good at getting to that solo, but I’ll still try!)

Typically I get myself over the hump of “no betraying people bad!” is by reminding myself that we’ve all consented to being stabbed and to not play the game in good faith is bad mannered. The 6 other players are trying to play a game of Diplomacy and if I’m playing with them I need to play with them. If I don’t want to try to win but “want us all to win together” I need to play some other game. There are lots of other great games that suit that style of play much better. I’ve found it’s important to play games as they are, not try to make them something they’re not

Re: Betrayal Blues

by Mark Murray » Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:01 am

..."and no religion too". I'm sorry, but I love a good alliance game. Gives me a little chubby.

Re: Betrayal Blues

by taylor4 » Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:55 pm

The smiler with the ... stiletto

Re: Betrayal Blues

by FlaviusAetius » Sat Nov 20, 2021 12:04 pm

There's many times when a stab is not worth it though and I think that's what's being forgotten here. In well formed alliances a stab is seen miles away, and easily defended against. It is ONLY when the alliance starts feeling pressure, or people stop expanding is when the alliance starts to shake and fall apart.
If you stabbed and lost---it was probably not the time to do the stab(if there ever was one in that game)

Re: Betrayal Blues

by Johnny Big Horse » Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:18 pm

This is the best forum topic I have read ever. Great posts by most of you.

In real life, I have always tended to trust others, but I learned from Webdip that people all have their own ends in mind, and they ally with you, if you can further them. I think that is real. Even if it comes to a loved one. I learned that here.

For people like me, not any more virtuous than anyone else by the way, webdip is good practice doing things we never do. Betray and lie and cheat. I think to be fully human, you need to have all of these tools at the ready.

Re: Betrayal Blues

by Doom427 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:31 pm

Got disgusting close to posting "You cheated not only the game, but yourself-You didn't grow. You didn't improve. You took a shortcut and gained nothing. Nothing was risked and nothing was gained. It's sad that you don't know the difference." without a single ounce of irony. THAT did make me feel guilty and disgusted at myself.

Maybe I'm too acidic, but I consider the game something fun and not all that dramatic, so making someone lose a few dip coins and ghost rating isn't all that sad to me. And considering how much I have to sugar coat and plead to make a partner do something solely beneficial to them, I usually cherish the moment when I can disrobe the happy and kind persona and just stab away.

Unless anyone reading this is ever in a game with me. You're so cool and interesting and smart, and kinda cute too ;)

I just consider "loyalty" more of a vice than a virtue- claiming you're a better person for passively sticking with something comfortable is toxic to my nature.

We can debate ethics of diplomacy, and I disagree there are no ethics to the game. There are plenty of things I find gross and hate and avoid (Draw-Whittling, my old foe). "Betrayals" though? Jeez, I think it's worse to say "Sorry, I promised I would never attack this player, and I can't just GO BACK on that" than any Betrayal you could do. That's just cheating the game and yourself. (Damn, I turned into a gamer bro :cry: )

Re: Betrayal Blues

by boylee » Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:03 pm

Morality and games have always been related. We all agree that scoring a goal in football isn't morally wrong -- the point of the game is to win and you win by scoring goals. Yet, many would also agree that there are "immoral" ways of scoring: diving to get penalties, or scoring while the opposition is stopping for an injury are all frowned upon.

Diplomacy is fascinating to me because even in its sterile, abstract world we can define terms like "alliances" and "betrayals". From then on, the story of the game, and its moral connotations are what you make them to be. For some, and for me as well, stabbing to win is just like (morally) scoring a goal -- it's what the game's all about. Yet, I need to take regular breaks from the Classic variant and play a lot more 1v1s because of the psychological toll Classic takes on me.

But then the question was, whether this attitude makes us better or worse as people outside Diplomacy (or at least that's how I understood the question that someone thought was an attempt at proselytization). I sincerely hope that nobody brings the backstabbing part of Diplomacy outside the game. Unfortunately, I know people for whom this attitude seems to be natural.

Re: Betrayal Blues

by Doom427 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:15 pm

PRINCE WILLIAM wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:09 am
For some people, me included, the end cannot validate the means by any standard.
Yes, I play to win, but if there happens to have a loyal and trusted ally all the game I won't betray him, I will set for the second best and draw with him.
What, exactly, is the "means" that's so awful? We're not... actually murdering thousands of soldiers through pointless wars in an endless dick measuring contest here.

I honestly feel worse when a player I'm currently fighting sends me a message saying we can work together. I'll respond, but I'll feel bad if I'm not actually aiming for peace.

But just responding by saying "Sorry, I never betray people in this game. You didn't ally me in the first year, so you can't play with me anymore. We're fighting the whole game" makes me feel slimy.

Re: Betrayal Blues

by PRINCE WILLIAM » Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:09 am

For some people, me included, the end cannot validate the means by any standard.
Yes, I play to win, but if there happens to have a loyal and trusted ally all the game I won't betray him, I will set for the second best and draw with him.

Re: Betrayal Blues

by Wusti » Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:19 am

jasnah wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:08 am
Octavious wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 6:33 am
Oh dear... so much that's wrong in so few lines...

Firstly, there's no such thing as a clearly dying country. After being stabbed your game dynamic changes, certainly, but only in the sense that your path to glory now leads in a different direction. The player whose reaction to a stab is to enter moves purely to stave off a reliability rating hit until they enjoy the sweet release of death is beneath contempt and has no business playing the game. The true diplomacy player should not worry about not upsetting them, but instead endeavour to make their existence as miserable as possible so the poor wretch never again wastes their time and ours in a game that's clearly not suited to them. Stab them, stab them again, stab their mother, and stab their teddy bear.

Secondly, stabbing is part of the rich tapestry of the game. Take away the stab and you deprive all players of the full gamut of emotion that the game provides. If you never stab you deprive your ally of the opportunity to exercise his skills in maintaining alliances, in balancing his forces and defending his flank. Never stab, and your unbreakable alliance robs your rivals of the solo promising dynamism of the game at its best and replaces it with only a tedious slog towards a stalemate line followed by a draw. To stab and stab well is to show respect to your fellow players. To refrain from stabbing when it is clearly the best option is a slap in the face to each of the six people who trusted you to act in the spirit of the game and to share their time with you.

To play with a sharp knife is to play with honour.
Why do people on this website play so mean? I understand now why my attempted alliances with webdippers don't usually go well :cry:
If you are not playing to win you are doing it wrong, and depriving both yourself and others the pleasure of a hard fought game. "Mean" has no validity in a Dip context. There is only the means to the end.

Re: Betrayal Blues

by TheFlyingBoat » Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:15 am

jasnah wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:08 am
Octavious wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 6:33 am
Oh dear... so much that's wrong in so few lines...

Firstly, there's no such thing as a clearly dying country. After being stabbed your game dynamic changes, certainly, but only in the sense that your path to glory now leads in a different direction. The player whose reaction to a stab is to enter moves purely to stave off a reliability rating hit until they enjoy the sweet release of death is beneath contempt and has no business playing the game. The true diplomacy player should not worry about not upsetting them, but instead endeavour to make their existence as miserable as possible so the poor wretch never again wastes their time and ours in a game that's clearly not suited to them. Stab them, stab them again, stab their mother, and stab their teddy bear.

Secondly, stabbing is part of the rich tapestry of the game. Take away the stab and you deprive all players of the full gamut of emotion that the game provides. If you never stab you deprive your ally of the opportunity to exercise his skills in maintaining alliances, in balancing his forces and defending his flank. Never stab, and your unbreakable alliance robs your rivals of the solo promising dynamism of the game at its best and replaces it with only a tedious slog towards a stalemate line followed by a draw. To stab and stab well is to show respect to your fellow players. To refrain from stabbing when it is clearly the best option is a slap in the face to each of the six people who trusted you to act in the spirit of the game and to share their time with you.

To play with a sharp knife is to play with honour.
Why do people on this website play so mean? I understand now why my attempted alliances with webdippers don't usually go well :cry:
smh

Re: Betrayal Blues

by jasnah » Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:08 am

Octavious wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 6:33 am
Oh dear... so much that's wrong in so few lines...

Firstly, there's no such thing as a clearly dying country. After being stabbed your game dynamic changes, certainly, but only in the sense that your path to glory now leads in a different direction. The player whose reaction to a stab is to enter moves purely to stave off a reliability rating hit until they enjoy the sweet release of death is beneath contempt and has no business playing the game. The true diplomacy player should not worry about not upsetting them, but instead endeavour to make their existence as miserable as possible so the poor wretch never again wastes their time and ours in a game that's clearly not suited to them. Stab them, stab them again, stab their mother, and stab their teddy bear.

Secondly, stabbing is part of the rich tapestry of the game. Take away the stab and you deprive all players of the full gamut of emotion that the game provides. If you never stab you deprive your ally of the opportunity to exercise his skills in maintaining alliances, in balancing his forces and defending his flank. Never stab, and your unbreakable alliance robs your rivals of the solo promising dynamism of the game at its best and replaces it with only a tedious slog towards a stalemate line followed by a draw. To stab and stab well is to show respect to your fellow players. To refrain from stabbing when it is clearly the best option is a slap in the face to each of the six people who trusted you to act in the spirit of the game and to share their time with you.

To play with a sharp knife is to play with honour.
Why do people on this website play so mean? I understand now why my attempted alliances with webdippers don't usually go well :cry:

Re: Betrayal Blues

by Octavious » Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:28 pm

The Old Testament always seemed to lack subtly to me. Samson won a few great victories, but always by charging in, tearing people apart and trusting to luck. If you were feeling charitable you could say that Elisha killing the boys who were mocking his haircut by persuading God to send bears to slaughter them is diplomacy in action... but anyone trying something similar in the game is liable to be eaten by the bears shortly after.

Re: Betrayal Blues

by taylor4 » Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:47 pm

The Old Testament books of Kings, Chronicles, Judges offer a plethora of military and diplomatic examples, if slightly legendarily dippy and/or bloody in parts. Your "average" cliche peacenik may be slightly offended. Am told it may be more palatable in the original Hebrew - of that era. Lost in Translation?
As they say in the marketplace of Ideas, "sola scriptura".

Re: Betrayal Blues

by Octavious » Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:19 pm

Very few carebears in the bible. It is easier for an army to pass through Switzerland than for a carebear to enter into the kingdom of God.

The Bible is full of plots and subtle diplomacy. Jesus was the master. He knew full well of Judas' stab in advance and used it to his advantage. Poor old Judas thought he'd pulled a blinder but was dead in a few days.

Only God was arguably better at this sort of thing. Imagine how easy life would have been if He'd instructed Gabriel to pop over to Herod on the way back from Mary, and let him know He was sending His son to Earth, so be a frightfully good chap and welcome him along and you'll get an honoured seat in heaven.

What a different nativity story that would have been. Sorry, Mary, all the inns are full. Not to worry, though. We've made some space at the Palace that will be quite comfortable. Some odd chaps are waiting to hand over some gifts, but we're keeping them in the east wing until you've had a proper rest. There were also some scruffy looking vagabonds stinking of sheep who were trying to sneek in, but we had them all shot so feel free to relax in peace.

Re: Betrayal Blues

by Doom427 » Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:25 pm

I can see preferring a more ally-heavy game, but I am a little gobsmacked at this being used as an attempt to evangelize.

Where would we be without the great stabber Judas' attempt to whittle the draw by allying with Rome? I'd like to keep going, but I'm not that familiar with Christianity. Someone more familiar with Mark and Luke and everyone, are they more care-bear style players?

Re: Betrayal Blues

by Octavious » Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:03 am

In what sense is 7 people getting together to play a game the opposite of loving your neighbour or civilisation?

Does it do psychic damage? No

What would a Buddhist say? "Let's play Diplomacy"

What would Jesus say? "Let's play Diplomacy"

Jesus, of course, would probably play on PlayDip due to them having the option set up games that don't process deadlines on the sabbath. Still, it would be unfair to hold this against him.

Re: Betrayal Blues

by horizolian » Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:47 am

Realists from Machiavelli to Morgenthau would say that international politics obeys no ethic and certainly no ethic in particular, only the human will to power and the need to survive amidst anarchy. If you play the game, you must play the game as it is, regardless of how you want it to be--otherwise, you lose.

That said, our redemption is not in politics. We must only survive long enough to earn our redemption elsewhere, as according to one's beliefs.

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