Freedom!

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Expand view Topic review: Freedom!

Re: Freedom!

by Fluminator » Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:46 pm

Octavious wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 4:33 pm
So, with Covid-19 in retreat as a lethal force in ever greater areas of the globe, and normal life returning to more and more people every day, how are we all finding it?

I have to say that enjoying live music in a bustling pub, making plans to go to the other half's grandparent's 70th anniversary do, not having to worry about wearing those godawful masks whenever you go to the shops... has been bloody fantastic in recent weeks :-D.
Where I'm from (Alberta) has basically been back to normal for awhile now. It's been awesome, and made me appreciate life a lot more.

Re: Freedom!

by flash2015 » Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:37 pm

There is all sort of extreme fearmongering going on in Australia at the moment. For example, there is a claim that even if Australia opens at 80% of people over 16 vaccinated, 25K people will die over the next 6 months from COVID...effectively saying that Australia will catch Germany in COVID deaths (roughly). This analysis is completely and utterly bonkers. The scientists that put their names to this should be ashamed of themselves:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... g-suggests

Again this sort of stuff is why Australia's early loss of COVID zero, while painful, long term will be a blessing.

Re: Freedom!

by RoganJosh » Tue Aug 24, 2021 12:36 am

I think the weirdest part of it was framing it as an 'elimination strategy,' when elimination has to be global. It's was always a hold-out-until-vaccines strategy. And a race against time to get as many vaccinated as possible.

Re: Freedom!

by Wusti » Mon Aug 23, 2021 11:58 pm

RoganJosh wrote:
Mon Aug 23, 2021 8:59 pm
Australians really think Australia didn't lock down soon and hard enough?

Edit: That was to Wusti.
Not Australia, NSW. The other states (notably run by Labor) opted for very harsh, but short and sharp lockdowns to contain any outbreaks at very low case numbers - and it worked.

We mostly had our lives back except for the odd week long work from home break, while the LNP (Conservative/Republican AU equivalents) bragged about how they were the "Gold Standard" and didn't have to lock down, when in reality it was sheer dumb luck that prevented previous outbreaks from growing.

So when Delta hit they strutted their BS and and let it explode and now refuse to be held accountable for it.

Honestly, we were set up (despite the blunders) to dodge most of the damage from COVID - with a smooth transition to vaccination up to 80-90% and then opening back up, but now its a mad race for it, with pretty much every other state in Australia locking NSW people out for the foreseeable future.

We had used our island status to maintain an elimination strategy until about 8 weeks ago. That horse has now bolted without us vaccinated. Carnage to ensue.

Good summary re: AZ fiasco flash. Nothing to be done when it was killing more Australians than COVID for a while there.

Re: Freedom!

by flash2015 » Mon Aug 23, 2021 11:03 pm

RoganJosh wrote:
Mon Aug 23, 2021 8:59 pm
Australians really think Australia didn't lock down soon and hard enough?

Edit: That was to Wusti.
Longer and HARDER. Of course you shouldn't forget to "spread your legs":

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... ters-gaffe

Re: Freedom!

by Octavious » Mon Aug 23, 2021 10:26 pm

Ah, bit of a cock-up on the public relations front. That's a tad unfortunate.

Re: Freedom!

by RoganJosh » Mon Aug 23, 2021 8:59 pm

Australians really think Australia didn't lock down soon and hard enough?

Edit: That was to Wusti.

Re: Freedom!

by flash2015 » Mon Aug 23, 2021 8:49 pm

For the first half of the year, Australia had no deaths from COVID (perhaps there was one?). After the initial AZ vaccine rollout started every few weeks there was someone keeling over from the vaccine...which didn't go down too well.

Government changed the vaccine advice to indicate that only those over 50 should take AZ. After a few prominent politicians in their 50s got Pfizer, the recommendation for AZ was changed again to the over 60s. This of course pissed many of the older folk off believing they were getting the shittier vaccine...and so many were planning to wait for Pfizer (which was still a few months away). Cue the inevitable boomer bashing...complaining that gramps is selfish.

However since COVID has now gone nuts in NSW things have changed and many who were waiting for Pfizer fronted up and got the AZ...but the damage to AZ reputation won't be repaired. After October there will be no new AZ doses supplied for the Australian rollout.

Re: Freedom!

by Octavious » Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:43 pm

What AZ shit?

Re: Freedom!

by Wusti » Mon Aug 23, 2021 2:57 pm

Octavious wrote:
Mon Aug 23, 2021 2:16 pm
You'll be old enough to remember thalidomide too, then. And from what I recall the whooping cough vaccine of the 70s/80s had an unfortunate reputation for neurological complications, which is why that formulation is no longer in use. These are not, and never have been, black and white issues.
God don't start the racist thing as well!

The real problem was our idiot Prime Minister placing all our eggs in the AZ basket (because we could manufacture locally, but no facilities exist in Australia yet to manufacture mRNA vaccines), without the proper hedges in place with other vaccines, such as Pfizer and Moderna. They left a gap of about 5 months during which other countries ordered about 42B does, leaving us, well buggered really when the AZ shit hit the fan here.

Being a Sydney resident myself, this lockdown (or mockdown as we affectionately call it) has been a joke - and the premier has played politics with it, refusing to deny she didn't lockdown fast and hard enough. I'm in Week 8 with a guaranteed 6 more to go - and we'll be at 50 deaths for this outbreak soon. Nothing much in the big scheme of things, unless of course you are directly touched.

Our NSW and Federal governments screwed the pooch and I am mega-pissed off. I've been waiting 3 months now for my first Pfizer shot, and am scheduled for it in about 2 and bit weeks from now. So here's hoping I get it in time! We'll be at 1000+ case load per day in Sydney by mid-week with less than 40% fully vaccinated. Shit could get real pretty fast.

Re: Freedom!

by Octavious » Mon Aug 23, 2021 2:16 pm

You'll be old enough to remember thalidomide too, then. And from what I recall the whooping cough vaccine of the 70s/80s had an unfortunate reputation for neurological complications, which is why that formulation is no longer in use. These are not, and never have been, black and white issues.

Re: Freedom!

by MajorMitchell » Mon Aug 23, 2021 10:41 am

As an Antipodean in Ramindjeri country I would agree with much of what flash2015 about the situation in sunny Australia.
There's no doubt in my mind that PM Smirko & his Federal Government failed to establish quarantine camps like the one in the northern territory at Howard Springs in similar locations to get large numbers of expats home faster and with the state governments, tried these "Medi~Hotels" in capital cities which just haven't had the required capacity and have been sources of outbreaks.

Our vaccination strategy was flawed but is getting better organised. We're a long way from where we need to be, in my opinion we need to get to above 80% of our population above the age of twelve fully vaccinated and the federal government is talking 80% of an adult population that gives an effective vaccination rate much lower ~ 55-60% of the total population

I agree with Wusti, I am fed up with selfish individuals who won't put our common interest first, who flout the public health safety standards and who are lethargic about vaccination or anti vaccination for no good medical reasons.
I am old enough to remember polio and whooping cough (which killed a lot of children & babies) in Australia and the way​ vaccination changed that, effectively eradicating these diseases in Australia.

If you live in Australia you are extremely fortunate and there's responsibilities that come with that, to our land and it's animal and plant life, to our people our communities, and after those responsibilities, then come our own interests.

So petulant whining blighters who won't get vaccinated promptly when it's free are exactly that, petulant, selfish and I have zero tolerance of their behaviours.

Re: Freedom!

by Octavious » Mon Aug 23, 2021 8:10 am

What is undeniable, be it in Australia or elsewhere and regardless of how well Covid-19 has been handled, is that some of the Covid-19 measures brought in have not only been utterly unnecessary, but in some cases actively harmful.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/res ... 58ksh.html

Regardless of whether you think that those skeptical of various measures are right or wrong, it is vitally important that these people exist and have a voice. In questioning covid policy many more cock-ups have been avoided.

Re: Freedom!

by Octavious » Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:05 pm

flash2015 wrote:
Sun Aug 22, 2021 8:55 pm
Octavious wrote:
Sun Aug 22, 2021 5:53 pm
flash2015 wrote:
Sun Aug 22, 2021 5:42 pm
Sorry. Forgot the "USA! USA! USA!"

Happier?
Never had you down as joining the USA chanting Yanks. I always felt you were better suited to the cream cheese bagel, angry jogger, and chiwawas in a sling fraternity ;)
What about angry walker?? And I don't even own a dog, you insensitive clod!
It's inevitable. It is your destiny.

Re: Freedom!

by flash2015 » Sun Aug 22, 2021 8:55 pm

Octavious wrote:
Sun Aug 22, 2021 5:53 pm
flash2015 wrote:
Sun Aug 22, 2021 5:42 pm
Sorry. Forgot the "USA! USA! USA!"

Happier?
Never had you down as joining the USA chanting Yanks. I always felt you were better suited to the cream cheese bagel, angry jogger, and chiwawas in a sling fraternity ;)
What about angry walker?? And I don't even own a dog, you insensitive clod!

Re: Freedom!

by flash2015 » Sun Aug 22, 2021 8:41 pm

Octavious wrote:
Sun Aug 22, 2021 5:45 pm
The Australian strategy has largely been a success. The only obvious drawback being an initially slow vaccination rate which, considering that vaccination is the only way back to normality, is a little baffling. Still, they now seem fairly well on their way to getting to the level of vaccination required to open up fully. The difficulty being that in the meantime they will be treated to lockdowns and rising case numbers whilst other parts of the world take a bit of a breather. Ultimately they will likely walk away from Covid-19 a lot better off than most, but for the next month or so it may feel a bit grim.
You are right. It has been a big success. The slow start to the vaccination wasn't that big a deal because they had been able to keep COVID out. When I was finally released from solitary confinement in early June, it felt kind of weird to not need my mask. It was nice!

Australia's success though was eventually going to become its undoing. Coming from COVID Zero, for many people, ANY COVID risk would be too much. Just as I was leaving they decided to halve the quotas even though the risk of COVID from former "leper colonies" like the USA had become much lower due to the vaccine. Discussions around perhaps making it easier for the vaccinated to get in or out would turn into "but the vaccinated can get infected too"...therefore the vaccinated should be treated in an identical way to the unvaccinated. Even the Prime Minister himself though acknowledged the much lower risk from the vaccinated at a press conference (I think he said something like "7 days of quarantine for a vaccinated person is more effective that 14 days for an unvaccinated one"). It was nuts that the vaccinated and unvaccinated continued to be treated the same.

The media has also been fomenting outrage against expat visitors, "how dare they have a holiday to see family and friends!!" ignoring the fact that it had been over a year since the border had been closed with no end date in sight. Family especially is important. With no end date in sight, what the hell do they think people should do? I tried to do the right thing and wait for the vaccine to minimize the risk of bringing COVID with me...but I realize I should have been more selfish and come earlier.

In some ways the current outbreak in NSW is a blessing. Whilst it is bad that Australia had to give up COVID Zero earlier than planned and the lockdowns are awful, it has given rocket fuel to the vaccine rollout (I was worried it would drag on since with no risk there is no rush) and in a few months it will becoming politically easy to open up the border and normalize things as COVID will be endemic in Australia anyway (though of course vaccine passports and COVID tests before travel will likely last for years).

You may be getting in all this that I am a little bitter. Too f**** right I am. Over the past few months I really felt "the hate" towards me and other expats, that we didn't matter at all no matter what the circumstances. Whatever the US's faults, one thing I do know is that they don't screw over their expats (apart from with the taxes :) ).

Re: Freedom!

by Crazy Anglican » Sun Aug 22, 2021 7:48 pm

flash2015 wrote:
Sun Aug 22, 2021 5:42 pm
Crazy Anglican wrote:
Sun Aug 22, 2021 5:09 pm
flash2015 wrote:
Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:10 pm
After 20 years holding out from becoming a Yank.... I finally applied for US citizenship a few weeks ago.

Um? ... Welcome?
Sorry. Forgot the "USA! USA! USA!"

Happier? :P
Nope, say what you want. It’s one of the perks.

Re: Freedom!

by Octavious » Sun Aug 22, 2021 5:53 pm

flash2015 wrote:
Sun Aug 22, 2021 5:42 pm
Sorry. Forgot the "USA! USA! USA!"

Happier?
Never had you down as joining the USA chanting Yanks. I always felt you were better suited to the cream cheese bagel, angry jogger, and chiwawas in a sling fraternity ;)

Re: Freedom!

by Octavious » Sun Aug 22, 2021 5:45 pm

The Australian strategy has largely been a success. The only obvious drawback being an initially slow vaccination rate which, considering that vaccination is the only way back to normality, is a little baffling. Still, they now seem fairly well on their way to getting to the level of vaccination required to open up fully. The difficulty being that in the meantime they will be treated to lockdowns and rising case numbers whilst other parts of the world take a bit of a breather. Ultimately they will likely walk away from Covid-19 a lot better off than most, but for the next month or so it may feel a bit grim.

Re: Freedom!

by flash2015 » Sun Aug 22, 2021 5:42 pm

Crazy Anglican wrote:
Sun Aug 22, 2021 5:09 pm
flash2015 wrote:
Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:10 pm
After 20 years holding out from becoming a Yank.... I finally applied for US citizenship a few weeks ago.

Um? ... Welcome?
Sorry. Forgot the "USA! USA! USA!"

Happier? :P

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