War, what is it good for?

by **Esquire Bertissimmo** » Mon Apr 14, 2025 8:28 pm

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2025/04/08/how-americans-view-israel-and-the-israel-hamas-war-at-the-start-of-trumps-second-term/

An interesting read on US impressions of Israel. In short, the old, the white, the protestant, and Trump voters still hold mainly favourable views of Israel's current government and its conduct in this conflict.

But support for Israel has declined across the board, even among those groups that still have an overall favourable view.

by **Jamiet99uk** » Sun Apr 13, 2025 10:31 pm

I don't agree.

But, as long as the USA supports the Israel killing machine, nothing else matters very much I guess.

by **Octavious** » Sun Apr 13, 2025 8:22 pm

Indeed so, and from a weapons and military equipment perspective we don't. Diplomatically we are not actively hostile, but not particularly supportive either. Very much taking the "I say, you probably shouldn't be doing that. That's really just not on, chaps" approach.

Like I say, your people have largely won the argument as far as offering support goes

by **Jamiet99uk** » Sun Apr 13, 2025 7:42 pm

I was not commenting on the precise economic or military value of the UK's supplies to Israel.

I was responding to Bert's question about whether "anyone in the West" still supports Israel.

by **Octavious** » Sat Apr 12, 2025 9:51 pm

The UK provides trainer aircraft and telecoms equipment, as well as a few naval bits and pieces, that in total amounts to a princely sum equivalent to the value of a small residential street of houses. We are less crucial to the Israeli war effort than the Nazi's armband supplier was to Hitler's dreams of world domination. The anti Israel lobby has been utterly victorious in the arena of arms supply, and it's crazy to pretend otherwise.

The US and Germany are important to Israel. We are not. Which is one of the reasons why we have feck all influence

by **Jamiet99uk** » Sat Apr 12, 2025 9:03 pm

Esquire Bertissimmo wrote: ↑
Sat Apr 12, 2025 4:36 pm
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gazans-struggle-find-water-clean-sources-become-increasingly-scarce-2025-04-11/

Israel is destroying itself with its callousness towards Gazans. Is there anyone left in the West defending Israel's actions other than Douglas Murray? Evil shit like denying aid while destroying civilian infrastructure makes their genocidal intentions quite clear. Gazans will be radicalized by this in perpetuity.

The problem is, yes. They have lots of supporters in the West.

Trump supports them.
The UK is providing the IDF with weapons and military equipment.

by **Esquire Bertissimmo** » Sat Apr 12, 2025 4:36 pm

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gazans-struggle-find-water-clean-sources-become-increasingly-scarce-2025-04-11/

Israel is destroying itself with its callousness towards Gazans. Is there anyone left in the West defending Israel's actions other than Douglas Murray? Evil shit like denying aid while destroying civilian infrastructure makes their genocidal intentions quite clear. Gazans will be radicalized by this in perpetuity.

by **CaptainFritz28** » Fri Apr 11, 2025 3:36 am

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Thu Apr 10, 2025 11:01 pm

Esquire Bertissimmo wrote: ↑
Thu Apr 10, 2025 4:37 pm
Maybe it helps to meet Jamie halfway? Kind of hard to have a discussion with someone whose view is explicitly pro-genocide.

Nazi Germany was terrible and was rightly "dismantled". That has little bearing on the legitimacy of modern Germany.

The UK was committing all sorts of massacres, and supporting many genocides, in the 40s, 50s, and 60s. Its colonial regimes were terrible and were rightly "dismantled" in the decades that followed. That has little bearing on the legitimacy of the UK in the 2020s.

Israel's crimes in the 40s don't invalidate the state forever. But the continuing atrocities, which are rightly characterized as genocide, do invalidate the Israeli governments that perpetrate them in my view.

Bibi is a jailable war criminal. IDF members responsible for okaying, then committing, human rights abuses should face a Nuremburg-style reckoning. The same is true for Hamas' leadership, its members who kill and kidnap citizens, and the Iranian and Qatari elites who back them.

So are the Netanyahu/Hamas governments an intolerable scourge that should be opposed until they are disempowered? Absolutely. If that were all that was meant by "dismantle," I’d be onboard—overthrowing governments that commit crimes against humanity is justice. But Jamie is saying millions of civilians should be expelled. That’s not justice. That’s ethnic cleansing, and it mirrors the very crimes he claims to oppose. A reverse genocide was not required to rectify the crimes of UK colonialism or German Nazism.
This is insightful and balanced and I think I agree with it.

It's the very thing we've been saying for a while...

by **Esquire Bertissimmo** » Thu Apr 10, 2025 11:55 pm

Imagine all the things the West could / should be doing to restrain Israel that don't involve the evil and impossible task of forcibly relocating all Israelis:

We could make military, trade, investment and diplomatic ties with Israel contingent on its human rights record.

We could sanction individual members of the Israeli government, or Israel as a whole.

We could more forcefully assert ourselves as providers of aid and security for Gazans.

We could diplomatically isolate Israel.

More countries could sign on to enforce the ICC's ruling against Netanyahu.

There are, however, practical limitation to the actions we might take even if we thought they were morally justified.

Israel gets leeway from the West to behave criminally in huge part because we're currently relying on them to contain Iran. That makes cutting military support trickier than it would otherwise be. It also rules out potential last-resort military actions that could be taken against Israel (which is anyhow prevented by Israel's nuclear weapons). This is morally repugnant, but nothing new in international affairs. It's not unlike our deference to the Saudis.

by **Jamiet99uk** » Thu Apr 10, 2025 11:01 pm

Esquire Bertissimmo wrote: ↑
Thu Apr 10, 2025 4:37 pm
Maybe it helps to meet Jamie halfway? Kind of hard to have a discussion with someone whose view is explicitly pro-genocide.

Nazi Germany was terrible and was rightly "dismantled". That has little bearing on the legitimacy of modern Germany.

The UK was committing all sorts of massacres, and supporting many genocides, in the 40s, 50s, and 60s. Its colonial regimes were terrible and were rightly "dismantled" in the decades that followed. That has little bearing on the legitimacy of the UK in the 2020s.

Israel's crimes in the 40s don't invalidate the state forever. But the continuing atrocities, which are rightly characterized as genocide, do invalidate the Israeli governments that perpetrate them in my view.

Bibi is a jailable war criminal. IDF members responsible for okaying, then committing, human rights abuses should face a Nuremburg-style reckoning. The same is true for Hamas' leadership, its members who kill and kidnap citizens, and the Iranian and Qatari elites who back them.

So are the Netanyahu/Hamas governments an intolerable scourge that should be opposed until they are disempowered? Absolutely. If that were all that was meant by "dismantle," I’d be onboard—overthrowing governments that commit crimes against humanity is justice. But Jamie is saying millions of civilians should be expelled. That’s not justice. That’s ethnic cleansing, and it mirrors the very crimes he claims to oppose. A reverse genocide was not required to rectify the crimes of UK colonialism or German Nazism.

This is insightful and balanced and I think I agree with it.

by **Esquire Bertissimmo** » Thu Apr 10, 2025 4:37 pm

Maybe it helps to meet Jamie halfway? Kind of hard to have a discussion with someone whose view is explicitly pro-genocide.

Nazi Germany was terrible and was rightly "dismantled". That has little bearing on the legitimacy of modern Germany.

The UK was committing all sorts of massacres, and supporting many genocides, in the 40s, 50s, and 60s. Its colonial regimes were terrible and were rightly "dismantled" in the decades that followed. That has little bearing on the legitimacy of the UK in the 2020s.

Israel's crimes in the 40s don't invalidate the state forever. But the continuing atrocities, which are rightly characterized as genocide, do invalidate the Israeli governments that perpetrate them in my view.

Bibi is a jailable war criminal. IDF members responsible for okaying, then committing, human rights abuses should face a Nuremburg-style reckoning. The same is true for Hamas' leadership, its members who kill and kidnap citizens, and the Iranian and Qatari elites who back them.

So are the Netanyahu/Hamas governments an intolerable scourge that should be opposed until they are disempowered? Absolutely. If that were all that was meant by "dismantle," I’d be onboard—overthrowing governments that commit crimes against humanity is justice. But Jamie is saying millions of civilians should be expelled. That’s not justice. That’s ethnic cleansing, and it mirrors the very crimes he claims to oppose. A reverse genocide was not required to rectify the crimes of UK colonialism or German Nazism.

by **CaptainFritz28** » Thu Apr 10, 2025 2:38 am

Ah! The ol' "ignore the opposing points and they'll go away" trick, I see.

by **Jamiet99uk** » Thu Apr 10, 2025 12:48 am

The IDF and the Waffen SS are now indistinguishable.
It was already heading that way in 1948.

by **Jamiet99uk** » Thu Apr 10, 2025 12:23 am

On 10th April 1948, the Deir Yassin massacre took place when around 120 fighters from the Zionist paramilitary groups Irgun and Lehi attacked the Palestinian village of Deir Yassin near Jerusalem, in which most of the residents were stonecutters and quarry workers.

Around 150 Palestinians, including many women and children, were killed, among them people who had been decapitated, disembowelled, mutilated, and raped.

One Zionist militiaman, Yehuda Feder, described his part in the massacre:

“I killed an armed Arab man and two Arab girls of 16 or 17 who were helping the Arab who was shooting. I stood them against a wall and blasted them with two rounds from the Tommy gun”.

He also recounted looting from the Palestinians' homes:

"a lot of money and silver and gold jewelry fell into our hands", and described the massacre as a "tremendous operation".

Dozens of bodies were then piled up and burned. The incident led to many Palestinians fleeing in terror, and was a key event in the ethnic cleansing of the area, during which over 700,000 of the 900,000 Palestinian Arab residents of what became "Israel" were expelled or forced to flee from their homes.

The Israeli army, which incorporated Irgun, today still refuses to release its photographs and documentation of the massacre.

Israel is the Nazis; it has no more legitimacy than a Nazi state; it should be dismantled.

by **Esquire Bertissimmo** » Sun Apr 06, 2025 11:42 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Sun Apr 06, 2025 11:23 pm
If someone illegally forced you out of your home at gunpoint and stole all your possessions, at what point would you decide "oh well it probably belongs to them", then?

I'm assuming 24 hours from the way you're posting? Maybe a couple of days?

By this logic, should my half-native friend get to genocide colonizers (including the more-white parts of his family?)? Or should he himself be genocided for the sins of some of his great great grandparents?

I'm a 5th generation settler Canadian. Is that long enough to have a claim? Or could I be expelled to America is enough white Canadians acted poorly? What about all the Vietnamese and Indians who came in the last 30 years?

There really might be a magical line that determines when a person belongs somewhere. If you stole it yesterday, give it back. If your great grandkids are walking around the city you built it's a lil too late.

by **Esquire Bertissimmo** » Sun Apr 06, 2025 11:33 pm

You don't get to collectively punish Jews and Israelis for this crime. It's really not that hard of a principle to understand.

Israel should be restrained by the international community to a much greater extent. Israel is committing a genocide and should be stopped, not encouraged in this direction by the likes of Trump. But genociding Israelis is just so obviously stupid, unprincipled, and moreover , unlikely to happen. Advocating this makes you as bad as Hamas and Netanyahu. It also makes you a deeply unserious person whose views on this issue are worth nothing.

by **Jamiet99uk** » Sun Apr 06, 2025 11:23 pm

If someone illegally forced you out of your home at gunpoint and stole all your possessions, at what point would you decide "oh well it probably belongs to them", then?

I'm assuming 24 hours from the way you're posting? Maybe a couple of days?

by **Jamiet99uk** » Sun Apr 06, 2025 11:09 pm

Israel's crimes are modern history and current events still taking place as we speak.

by **Esquire Bertissimmo** » Sun Apr 06, 2025 10:42 pm

It's very funny that after all this time and all the all-caps screaming from Jamie, he's been the only one to ever actually endorse genocide on this forum.

by **Esquire Bertissimmo** » Sun Apr 06, 2025 10:40 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Sun Apr 06, 2025 8:05 pm

I said send the Israelis to the USA, not Europe, just for the record.

Was this supposed to make your position seem more logical or less genocidal? Truly moronic lol, this is how 14 year olds think about geopolitics.

War, what is it good for?

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