20 Questions — 107

by **Octavious** » Sun Apr 23, 2023 8:59 am

The clear solution is to keep calling them Americans as it's what everyone's used to and it causes no problems except for the rare occasions when the context doesn't make it obvious, in which case Yank or US citizen or any other clear phrasing may be required. This is a complete non-issue

by **Octavious** » Sun Apr 23, 2023 8:53 am

sweetandcool wrote: ↑
Sun Apr 23, 2023 8:04 am

Octavious wrote: ↑
Sun Apr 23, 2023 6:57 am
What could we possibly call the Yanks to differentiate them from other Americans? If only there was some existing word that Yanks were known by but no one else was...
About as reasonable as suggesting British people start going by "Limeys", "Rosbif", or "Inselaffe".

Exactly. It works perfectly. What's the problem?

by **sweetandcool** » Sun Apr 23, 2023 8:22 am

Hanging Rook wrote: ↑
Sun Apr 23, 2023 8:20 am
Might I simply suggest US-Americans

I suggested that. It's not terrible.

by **Hanging Rook** » Sun Apr 23, 2023 8:20 am

Might I simply suggest US-Americans

by **sweetandcool** » Sun Apr 23, 2023 8:04 am

Octavious wrote: ↑
Sun Apr 23, 2023 6:57 am
What could we possibly call the Yanks to differentiate them from other Americans? If only there was some existing word that Yanks were known by but no one else was...

About as reasonable as suggesting British people start going by "Limeys", "Rosbif", or "Inselaffe".

by **Octavious** » Sun Apr 23, 2023 6:57 am

What could we possibly call the Yanks to differentiate them from other Americans? If only there was some existing word that Yanks were known by but no one else was...

by **JECE** » Sun Apr 23, 2023 4:21 am

Yeah, there isn't a clean solution without inventing something à la 'Emirati' or appropriating the term North American, which might offend the Canadians.

"It does not imply that others on the continents are any less American."
That's at least better. In this thread there were posts that did imply as much.

by **sweetandcool** » Sat Apr 22, 2023 4:23 am

I don't think continued argument is going to get us anywhere, so we will have to agree to disagree on this issue.

Still, feel free to make a closing argument if you wish. I wouldn't want to shut you down before you've had the satisfaction of replying.

by **sweetandcool** » Sat Apr 22, 2023 4:21 am

JECE wrote: ↑
Sat Apr 22, 2023 3:04 am

sweetandcool wrote: ↑
Sat Apr 22, 2023 2:15 am

JECE wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 21, 2023 10:50 pm

"U. S." is a perfectly valid adjective that is very commonly used and is also twice as fast to say. And fine, it's the neocolonial imposition that bothers Hispanic people.
I must be misunderstanding you. Are you really suggesting that citizens from the USA be referred to as U.S.? That doesn't really make sense, so you must mean something else. That would be like calling a citizen of Ireland, "Ireland", or a citizen of Uzbekistan, "Uzbekistan". Maybe this makes more sense in Spanish or Portuguese, or another language? It doesn't make sense in English.

I guess the problem here is that there doesn't seem to be a reasonable alternative for citizens of the United States of America.
It's not a demonym, so that is a limitation, but it is still very commonly used as an adjective (e. g., 'U. S. marines'). You wouldn't say 'Ireland marines'; you would say 'Irish marines'. To answer your question, while using 'United States' as an adjective works in English, you can't use 'Estados Unidos' as an adjective.

Okay, but we are straying from the discussion. I'm asking, what would you call a citizen of the USA? It sounds like you are advocating for something like " A US person"?

Either way, I wish it was understood that it's not meant to be denigrating to others. Calling a citizen of the USA an American is the only reasonable thing to do, given the country's name. It does not imply that others on the continents are any less American. The USA simply does not have the luxury of having a unique demonym. Other countries are blessed to have one, such as Columbians from Columbia, Brazilians from Brazil, Uruguayans from Uruguay, etc. Nobody moans when they call themselves by their natural name

by **JECE** » Sat Apr 22, 2023 3:04 am

sweetandcool wrote: ↑
Sat Apr 22, 2023 2:15 am

JECE wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 21, 2023 10:50 pm

sweetandcool wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 21, 2023 9:43 pm

Yes, my impression is that this is not an uncommon sentiment. What puzzles me is that the word "American" is a colonial imposition in the first place. So I do not understand why they care that "American" refers to a citizen of the USA, especially since it seems pretty clear that the usage is for lack of a better name. Certainly one would not want to say "United States of American". Perhaps "US American" is a bit better.
"U. S." is a perfectly valid adjective that is very commonly used and is also twice as fast to say. And fine, it's the neocolonial imposition that bothers Hispanic people.
I must be misunderstanding you. Are you really suggesting that citizens from the USA be referred to as U.S.? That doesn't really make sense, so you must mean something else. That would be like calling a citizen of Ireland, "Ireland", or a citizen of Uzbekistan, "Uzbekistan". Maybe this makes more sense in Spanish or Portuguese, or another language? It doesn't make sense in English.

I guess the problem here is that there doesn't seem to be a reasonable alternative for citizens of the United States of America.

It's not a demonym, so that is a limitation, but it is still very commonly used as an adjective (e. g., 'U. S. marines'). You wouldn't say 'Ireland marines'; you would say 'Irish marines'. To answer your question, while using 'United States' as an adjective works in English, you can't use 'Estados Unidos' as an adjective.

by **sweetandcool** » Sat Apr 22, 2023 2:15 am

JECE wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 21, 2023 10:50 pm

sweetandcool wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 21, 2023 9:43 pm

JECE wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 21, 2023 9:34 pm

Official position of the Real Academia Española, that regulates the Spanish language alongside the Spanish language academies of the various American republics:

As suggested, Venezuelans and others will often be even more forceful in their objection to the use of 'American' to exclusively refer to the United States of America, and are liable to condemn this usage as a colonial imposition.
Yes, my impression is that this is not an uncommon sentiment. What puzzles me is that the word "American" is a colonial imposition in the first place. So I do not understand why they care that "American" refers to a citizen of the USA, especially since it seems pretty clear that the usage is for lack of a better name. Certainly one would not want to say "United States of American". Perhaps "US American" is a bit better.
"U. S." is a perfectly valid adjective that is very commonly used and is also twice as fast to say. And fine, it's the neocolonial imposition that bothers Hispanic people.

I must be misunderstanding you. Are you really suggesting that citizens from the USA be referred to as U.S.? That doesn't really make sense, so you must mean something else. That would be like calling a citizen of Ireland, "Ireland", or a citizen of Uzbekistan, "Uzbekistan". Maybe this makes more sense in Spanish or Portuguese, or another language? It doesn't make sense in English.

I guess the problem here is that there doesn't seem to be a reasonable alternative for citizens of the United States of America.

by **JECE** » Sat Apr 22, 2023 1:56 am

https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/th ... cy-changes

https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/th ... eople-cuba

"todos somos americanos"

by **JECE** » Fri Apr 21, 2023 10:50 pm

sweetandcool wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 21, 2023 9:43 pm

JECE wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 21, 2023 9:34 pm

Foxcastle wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:06 pm

I encourage you to test the converse case and go tell a Venezuelan they are American and see how they respond, because, while I don't have particular evidence to the contrary, I am not convinced by that assertion. (But I know many Canadians who would very definitely deny being "American.")
Official position of the Real Academia Española, that regulates the Spanish language alongside the Spanish language academies of the various American republics:
https://www.rae.es/dpd/Estados%20Unidos#4 wrote:debe evitarse el empleo de americano para referirse exclusivamente a los habitantes de los Estados Unidos, uso abusivo que se explica por el hecho de que los estadounidenses utilizan a menudo el nombre abreviado América (en inglés, sin tilde) para referirse a su país. No debe olvidarse que América es el nombre de todo el continente y son americanos todos los que lo habitan.

https://www.rae.es/dpd/Am%C3%A9rica wrote:América. 1. Debe evitarse la identificación del nombre de este continente con los Estados Unidos de América (→ [see above quote]), uso abusivo que se da sobre todo en España.
As suggested, Venezuelans and others will often be even more forceful in their objection to the use of 'American' to exclusively refer to the United States of America, and are liable to condemn this usage as a colonial imposition.
Yes, my impression is that this is not an uncommon sentiment. What puzzles me is that the word "American" is a colonial imposition in the first place. So I do not understand why they care that "American" refers to a citizen of the USA, especially since it seems pretty clear that the usage is for lack of a better name. Certainly one would not want to say "United States of American". Perhaps "US American" is a bit better.

"U. S." is a perfectly valid adjective that is very commonly used and is also twice as fast to say. And fine, it's the neocolonial imposition that bothers Hispanic people.

by **JECE** » Fri Apr 21, 2023 10:48 pm

sweetandcool wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 21, 2023 9:35 pm

JECE wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 21, 2023 9:20 pm

sweetandcool wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 21, 2023 7:34 pm

The European Union is not a country. If it did become a country, I'm not sure what would happen, simply because for a very long time anybody from Europe has been called a European. I agree that the practice probably wouldn't change, except maybe hundreds of years from now.

However, if the European Union was a country as old as Italy, France, etc. then it probably would have developed similarly to the USA in that one would probably refer to citizens of the hypothetical European Union as Europeans, and only them.
People across the continent have been called Americans for centuries before the United States existed.
Have they? I've heard Native Americans, Indians, from the Americas. Before Europeans started forming colonies, were the locals calling themselves Americans? Did Europeans commonly refer to them as Americans?

According to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_ ... Hemisphere).

Europeans originally called the New World, "America" and the natives "Americans". Then as they colonized the New World, the word "American" referred to the settlers. And later, it referred to what ended up becoming the United States of America.

So it looks like the modern usage of "American" to refer to a citizen of the United State of America has actually been in use longer than the original usage, which broadly referred to the New World and its natives.

You're ignoring the fact that there was a much larger colonization to the south that underwent similar changes in the meaning of the word, and that the history goes back even further in time. (Of course there were also competing terms like "Indies", but that is besides the point.)

by **sweetandcool** » Fri Apr 21, 2023 9:43 pm

JECE wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 21, 2023 9:34 pm

Foxcastle wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:06 pm

Octavious wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:02 pm
The Russians are a brutal bunch of arseholes with an unshakeable sense of their own cultural superiority. In what sense are they not European?

Obviously Canadians are Americans, in much the same way that Yanks and Venezuelans are. If you try to tell a Venezuelan that they're not American they're liable to give you a kick in the bollocks and a half hour lecture explaining how wrong and stupid you are. If you try to tell a Canadian that they're not American they will be so delighted you've recognised they're not a Yank they'll forgive you pretty much anything.
I encourage you to test the converse case and go tell a Venezuelan they are American and see how they respond, because, while I don't have particular evidence to the contrary, I am not convinced by that assertion. (But I know many Canadians who would very definitely deny being "American.")
Official position of the Real Academia Española, that regulates the Spanish language alongside the Spanish language academies of the various American republics:
https://www.rae.es/dpd/Estados%20Unidos#4 wrote:debe evitarse el empleo de americano para referirse exclusivamente a los habitantes de los Estados Unidos, uso abusivo que se explica por el hecho de que los estadounidenses utilizan a menudo el nombre abreviado América (en inglés, sin tilde) para referirse a su país. No debe olvidarse que América es el nombre de todo el continente y son americanos todos los que lo habitan.

https://www.rae.es/dpd/Am%C3%A9rica wrote:América. 1. Debe evitarse la identificación del nombre de este continente con los Estados Unidos de América (→ [see above quote]), uso abusivo que se da sobre todo en España.
As suggested, Venezuelans and others will often be even more forceful in their objection to the use of 'American' to exclusively refer to the United States of America, and are liable to condemn this usage as a colonial imposition.

Yes, my impression is that this is not an uncommon sentiment. What puzzles me is that the word "American" is a colonial imposition in the first place. So I do not understand why they care that "American" refers to a citizen of the USA, especially since it seems pretty clear that the usage is for lack of a better name. Certainly one would not want to say "United States of American". Perhaps "US American" is a bit better.

by **sweetandcool** » Fri Apr 21, 2023 9:35 pm

JECE wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 21, 2023 9:20 pm

sweetandcool wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 21, 2023 7:34 pm

Hanging Rook wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 21, 2023 7:23 pm

What about the European Union? I wouldn’t only call citizens of a Union Member State „European“as even if they would completely integrate in a single state, that wouldn’t stop people from other European countries being Europeans.
The European Union is not a country. If it did become a country, I'm not sure what would happen, simply because for a very long time anybody from Europe has been called a European. I agree that the practice probably wouldn't change, except maybe hundreds of years from now.

However, if the European Union was a country as old as Italy, France, etc. then it probably would have developed similarly to the USA in that one would probably refer to citizens of the hypothetical European Union as Europeans, and only them.
People across the continent have been called Americans for centuries before the United States existed.

Have they? I've heard Native Americans, Indians, from the Americas. Before Europeans started forming colonies, were the locals calling themselves Americans? Did Europeans commonly refer to them as Americans?

According to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_ ... Hemisphere).

Europeans originally called the New World, "America" and the natives "Americans". Then as they colonized the New World, the word "American" referred to the settlers. And later, it referred to what ended up becoming the United States of America.

So it looks like the modern usage of "American" to refer to a citizen of the United State of America has actually been in use longer than the original usage, which broadly referred to the New World and its natives.

by **JECE** » Fri Apr 21, 2023 9:34 pm

Foxcastle wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:06 pm

Octavious wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:02 pm
The Russians are a brutal bunch of arseholes with an unshakeable sense of their own cultural superiority. In what sense are they not European?

Obviously Canadians are Americans, in much the same way that Yanks and Venezuelans are. If you try to tell a Venezuelan that they're not American they're liable to give you a kick in the bollocks and a half hour lecture explaining how wrong and stupid you are. If you try to tell a Canadian that they're not American they will be so delighted you've recognised they're not a Yank they'll forgive you pretty much anything.
I encourage you to test the converse case and go tell a Venezuelan they are American and see how they respond, because, while I don't have particular evidence to the contrary, I am not convinced by that assertion. (But I know many Canadians who would very definitely deny being "American.")

Official position of the Real Academia Española, that regulates the Spanish language alongside the Spanish language academies of the various American republics:

https://www.rae.es/dpd/Estados%20Unidos#4 wrote:debe evitarse el empleo de americano para referirse exclusivamente a los habitantes de los Estados Unidos, uso abusivo que se explica por el hecho de que los estadounidenses utilizan a menudo el nombre abreviado América (en inglés, sin tilde) para referirse a su país. No debe olvidarse que América es el nombre de todo el continente y son americanos todos los que lo habitan.

https://www.rae.es/dpd/Am%C3%A9rica wrote:América. 1. Debe evitarse la identificación del nombre de este continente con los Estados Unidos de América (→ [see above quote]), uso abusivo que se da sobre todo en España.

As suggested, Venezuelans and others will often be even more forceful in their objection to the use of 'American' to exclusively refer to the United States of America, and are liable to condemn this usage as a colonial imposition.

by **JECE** » Fri Apr 21, 2023 9:20 pm

sweetandcool wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 21, 2023 7:34 pm

Hanging Rook wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 21, 2023 7:23 pm

sweetandcool wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 21, 2023 7:10 pm

I assume that the citizens of the United States of America are generally referred to as Americans because they live in the only country with "America" in its name.

One of course could also call Native Americans, Americans as well, such is their right.

It gets a bit confusing and is in my opinion pretty improper to refer to citizens of any other country in North/South America as Americans. I would understand that the logic behind doing so is similar to how people from the continent of Europe could be called Europeans (Asians from Asia, Africans from Africa, etc.), but the problem is that none of those countries have the continent in their name.

If a country in Europe were named "The United States of Europe", then I bet citizens of that country would be called Europeans and no other citizens from other countries would be.
What about the European Union? I wouldn’t only call citizens of a Union Member State „European“as even if they would completely integrate in a single state, that wouldn’t stop people from other European countries being Europeans.
The European Union is not a country. If it did become a country, I'm not sure what would happen, simply because for a very long time anybody from Europe has been called a European. I agree that the practice probably wouldn't change, except maybe hundreds of years from now.

However, if the European Union was a country as old as Italy, France, etc. then it probably would have developed similarly to the USA in that one would probably refer to citizens of the hypothetical European Union as Europeans, and only them.

People across the continent have been called Americans for centuries before the United States existed.

by **sweetandcool** » Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:13 pm

Octavious wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:06 pm

sweetandcool wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 21, 2023 7:34 pm
However, if the European Union was a country as old as Italy
As old as Italy? As countries go Italy is brand new.

Sorry for not being precise. Italy as a modern nation is new. But what I meant in that case was more along the lines of historical culture. Italian culture dates back to the Roman Empire. So in that sense, I should have said "as old as Italian culture".

In the end, I think my meaning was clear. If it makes you feel better, please choose a more reasonable country and move along.

by **Hanging Rook** » Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:11 pm

Foxcastle wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:02 pm
Also, Hanging Rock, if you have any questions about running the next round, just ask!

Thanks for the offer, but I should be fine.

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