ghug wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:44 am

The problem with pushing boundaries is that these are issues that are hard to codify in rules. Look no further than this very conversation for evidence of that.

This is an impassioned community, but it's still a bunch of people volunteering their time to run games for others. Nobody wants to moderate. Nobody wants to write and enforce and litigate rules. Creating a situation where people have to step up and do that is harmful to the community.

ghug wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:46 pm

BunnyGo wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:09 pm

snowy801 wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:44 pm

It's not complicated Bunny. Just don't talk about any meta knowledge you possess.

What firmer line do you want?

Pretending you don’t have knowledge is different than not having knowledge! Having knowledge is already influencing you. And not discussing it doesn’t make it not be there. Make a rule that the knowledge can’t be acquired at all, or let it in. But don’t pretend.

I actually do agree with you here, but I think people need to act in good faith with regard to things that could be potentially gamebreaking. If the GM put information in the VT PM that doesn't match the thread, tell them to correct it instead of using it to catch people out. If QuickTopic was down during the day, get the GM to clarify that it didn't end up affecting the game instead of speculating that it did. If you saw Aarodactyl looking at his phone and cackling maniacally over dinner, sure, there's no way to avoid that you know something's up, so you either acknowledge it and continue playing or ask to be removed if you don't think you can.

President Eden wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:13 pm

Also, let this gem not be forgotten:

DeathLlama8 wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:12 pm

snowy801 wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:09 pm

Everyone who policy voted lfischl in the past have 100% been scum

(don’t check past games for that just take my word for it)

ah fuck why didn’t anyone tell me that in the QT
I hardclaim uhhhh sleepwalker

President Eden wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:18 pm

DEATHLLAMA8 has DIED. He was the SLEEPWALKER.

TheFlyingBoat wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:48 pm

Bonatogether wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:24 pm

TheFlyingBoat wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:21 pm

I was so worried in the God Thread that you were going to kill town and make Durga go crazy on the 24 hours to solve this thing or w/e

gms never slip

But Bonas do

Bonatogether wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:24 pm

TheFlyingBoat wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:21 pm

Bonatogether wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:20 pm

i did the best vote counts

I was so worried in the God Thread that you were going to kill town and make Durga go crazy on the 24 hours to solve this thing or w/e

gms never slip

BunnyGo wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:09 pm

snowy801 wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:44 pm

BunnyGo wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:13 pm

Re: meta gaming, I think using people’s activity on other sites and discord should be barred because it isn’t available to all. But that would require people changing their lives around which is no good. I don’t know what the answer should be. But several times this game it was used.

People practicing “active ethics” on ignoring meta game information is largely a joke. It doesn’t work. I’m a fan of it. But it really requires commitment to LOSE on purple because of accidentally observed meta gaming. It also requires people to consciously observe themselves. Ive done it, I threw a hand in a major bridge tournament because I caught a tell of my partner so I misplayed the hand on purpose to actively not use the tell. There are famous stories about other players doing it. The problem is that the stories are famous because we all know most players don’t do it.

But there needs to be a real discussion on “what information specifically is allowed and disallowed and what players should do when accidentally accessing disallowed information “ if you wish to discuss meta gaming. I don’t think it’s simple.

It's not complicated Bunny. Just don't talk about any meta knowledge you possess.

What firmer line do you want?

Pretending you don’t have knowledge is different than not having knowledge! Having knowledge is already influencing you. And not discussing it doesn’t make it not be there. Make a rule that the knowledge can’t be acquired at all, or let it in. But don’t pretend.

snowy801 wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:31 pm

Out of curiosity, have you guys ever played mafia outside of this forum? I imagine you might have, but this discussion made me think otherwise.

If you have, you'd know that each and every person has their own take on what is and isn't acceptable behavior in any given game, even separated from the topic of metagaming. I am not interested in litigating the details of such actions, as long as I can quell the source of the issue: people like you two. If you would like to propose such guidelines you are welcome on your own time and effort.

So long as you do away with the thin pretense that this is an actual problem of discernment rather than concern trolling with the intent to justify cheating, I don't particularly care what it is you do or how you define metagaming. The vast majority of people do not have a problem with this. Have you ever wondered why you do?

That said, in this particular instance I suggested that Bunny be given a quick private word instead of anything serious because the instance was largely harmless and I am prone to believe that scum players should generally be allowed a wider range of actions than town (lurking, for example). That said, if we allowed scum players the pretense of metagaming and cracked down on town, it would itself be a problematic signal. Best to do away with it in its entire.

snowy801 wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:31 pm

Out of curiosity, have you guys ever played mafia outside of this forum? I imagine you might have, but this discussion made me think otherwise.

If you have, you'd know that each and every person has their own take on what is and isn't acceptable behavior in any given game, even separated from the topic of metagaming. I am not interested in litigating the details of such actions, as long as I can quell the source of the issue: people like you two. If you would like to propose such guidelines you are welcome on your own time and effort.

So long as you do away with the thin pretense that this is an actual problem of discernment rather than concern trolling with the intent to justify cheating, I don't particularly care what it is you do or how you define metagaming. The vast majority of people do not have a problem with this. Have you ever wondered why you do?

That said, in this particular instance I suggested that Bunny be given a quick private word instead of anything serious because the instance was largely harmless and I am prone to believe that scum players should generally be allowed a wider range of actions than town (lurking, for example). That said, if we allowed scum players the pretense of metagaming and cracked down on town, it would itself be a problematic signal. Best to do away with it in its entire.

Durga wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:05 am

and now instead of providing this QUOTE by this MYSTERY PERSON he refers to to figure out WHY THEY KILLED GHUG (as if it is the world's weirdest kill or some shit) he is shitposting on discord!!!!

someone pls clear tfb before i tunnel into oblivion.

snowy801 wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:08 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:20 pm

snowy801 wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:44 pm

It's not complicated Bunny. Just don't talk about any meta knowledge you possess.

What firmer line do you want?

So you're ok with people acting on meta knowledge, as long as they don't talk about it?

Also, how do you define "meta knowledge" ?

“Villains often try to get clever, to stump me with philosophical questions like ‘what is evil?’ To which I answer ‘generally, people asking me that question’, which somehow they never see coming.”
– Aldred Alban of Callow, the Prince Errant

Jamiet none of what you just described is metagaming. One might hope you would've known the difference, but I suppose said one is far too hopeful.

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:36 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:20 pm

snowy801 wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:44 pm

It's not complicated Bunny. Just don't talk about any meta knowledge you possess.

What firmer line do you want?

So you're ok with people acting on meta knowledge, as long as they don't talk about it?

Also, how do you define "meta knowledge" ?

@Snowy:

For example, would you propose a change to the rules, to ban posts such as the following?

Durga wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:53 am

yeah i've also been busy today - i just am remembering how awful he was when he was scum!bunny. i know it's totally possible to switch up meta but does bunny have that kind of depth?

TheFlyingBoat wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:41 pm

DeathLlama8 wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:44 pm

cool thanks
wb the PoE ranking?

Sure, the ranking is more a product of meta analysis and less of hard behavior, something I hope to supplement during my reread and in fact I already do feel somewhat less confident in it. I liked some of Bunny's earlier posts but points about him being a replacement and therefore easily able to play as town since that's how he basically thought about it before he replaced was convincing to me that I shouldn't take that as town indicative as one would initially think. Further some of his later posts were far less appealing and that was true even before ghug's death. Bunnicula is now pretty higher on my list.

<snip>

Durga has seemed off this game and hasn't been asking the tough questions I saw her ask last time and has been shitposting interspersed with a little bit of righteous indignation for not being seen as obv town yet.

As for Jamie, he's been far too nice and unabrasive. Someone told me in the last game Jamie fakes being nice when he's scum where he feels more comfortable being an asshole when he's town.

Durga wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:24 pm

Honestly I said this before but this is the most townie I've ever seen bunny play and last game I thought he was soooo scummy but he was town. That being said, he did sub in and was following the game prior so its much easier to fake townie thoughts. Bunny's meta was also hella different when he *was* scum. But it's not out of his range to fake it.

You're saying posts of this nature should be banned?

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:20 pm

snowy801 wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:44 pm

BunnyGo wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:13 pm

Re: meta gaming, I think using people’s activity on other sites and discord should be barred because it isn’t available to all. But that would require people changing their lives around which is no good. I don’t know what the answer should be. But several times this game it was used.

People practicing “active ethics” on ignoring meta game information is largely a joke. It doesn’t work. I’m a fan of it. But it really requires commitment to LOSE on purple because of accidentally observed meta gaming. It also requires people to consciously observe themselves. Ive done it, I threw a hand in a major bridge tournament because I caught a tell of my partner so I misplayed the hand on purpose to actively not use the tell. There are famous stories about other players doing it. The problem is that the stories are famous because we all know most players don’t do it.

But there needs to be a real discussion on “what information specifically is allowed and disallowed and what players should do when accidentally accessing disallowed information “ if you wish to discuss meta gaming. I don’t think it’s simple.

It's not complicated Bunny. Just don't talk about any meta knowledge you possess.

What firmer line do you want?

So you're ok with people acting on meta knowledge, as long as they don't talk about it?

Also, how do you define "meta knowledge" ?

snowy801 wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:44 pm

BunnyGo wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:13 pm

Re: meta gaming, I think using people’s activity on other sites and discord should be barred because it isn’t available to all. But that would require people changing their lives around which is no good. I don’t know what the answer should be. But several times this game it was used.

People practicing “active ethics” on ignoring meta game information is largely a joke. It doesn’t work. I’m a fan of it. But it really requires commitment to LOSE on purple because of accidentally observed meta gaming. It also requires people to consciously observe themselves. Ive done it, I threw a hand in a major bridge tournament because I caught a tell of my partner so I misplayed the hand on purpose to actively not use the tell. There are famous stories about other players doing it. The problem is that the stories are famous because we all know most players don’t do it.

But there needs to be a real discussion on “what information specifically is allowed and disallowed and what players should do when accidentally accessing disallowed information “ if you wish to discuss meta gaming. I don’t think it’s simple.

It's not complicated Bunny. Just don't talk about any meta knowledge you possess.

What firmer line do you want?

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:20 pm

snowy801 wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:44 pm

BunnyGo wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:13 pm

Re: meta gaming, I think using people’s activity on other sites and discord should be barred because it isn’t available to all. But that would require people changing their lives around which is no good. I don’t know what the answer should be. But several times this game it was used.

People practicing “active ethics” on ignoring meta game information is largely a joke. It doesn’t work. I’m a fan of it. But it really requires commitment to LOSE on purple because of accidentally observed meta gaming. It also requires people to consciously observe themselves. Ive done it, I threw a hand in a major bridge tournament because I caught a tell of my partner so I misplayed the hand on purpose to actively not use the tell. There are famous stories about other players doing it. The problem is that the stories are famous because we all know most players don’t do it.

But there needs to be a real discussion on “what information specifically is allowed and disallowed and what players should do when accidentally accessing disallowed information “ if you wish to discuss meta gaming. I don’t think it’s simple.

It's not complicated Bunny. Just don't talk about any meta knowledge you possess.

What firmer line do you want?

So you're ok with people acting on meta knowledge, as long as they don't talk about it?

Also, how do you define "meta knowledge" ?