The original nativity scene and how it was made

by **MajorMitchell** » Sun Jan 12, 2025 10:06 am

Well done Captain Fritz, thank you.
King Herod was a cruel tyrant, a typical ruler of his times.
Probably an extremely paranoid man willing to believe superstitious gossip?

by **learnedSloth** » Thu Jan 09, 2025 11:10 am

MajorMitchell wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 07, 2025 11:48 am
Well which of the two opposing versions of the slaughter of young makes on the alleged orders of King Herod that you have presented In your psts is the fkn one you assert is "trus according to the Bible" (with NO OTHER EVIDENCE) dear Learned Sloth?

In your first mention if it in the quotation of a selective portion of scripture ending with the "great lamentations" etc that would have aroused great interest amongst the Roman rulers of Palestine and been controversial and recorded in other sources but us not....

However when you need to refute my inconvenient contributions on the issue, ask I ng "where is supporting evidence?"...
Then suddenly, et voila~ the slaughter of the make children was barely noticed?

It was a local tragedy, but not significant enough for historians.

by **CaptainFritz28** » Tue Jan 07, 2025 6:30 pm

MajorMitchell wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 07, 2025 11:48 am
Well which of the two opposing versions of the slaughter of young makes on the alleged orders of King Herod that you have presented In your psts is the fkn one you assert is "trus according to the Bible" (with NO OTHER EVIDENCE) dear Learned Sloth?

In your first mention if it in the quotation of a selective portion of scripture ending with the "great lamentations" etc that would have aroused great interest amongst the Roman rulers of Palestine and been controversial and recorded in other sources but us not....

However when you need to refute my inconvenient contributions on the issue, ask I ng "where is supporting evidence?"...
Then suddenly, et voila~ the slaughter of the make children was barely noticed?

And your evasive "Where is the evidence it didn't happen?" is such a pathetic attempt at avoiding admitting there is no evidence other than what is concocted in scriptures

Flavius Josephus describes Herod as greatly disliked by the Jews, and accounts many evil and murderous actions that he took. For example, he ordered that the leading men of Israel be rounded up and killed when Herod died so that all of Israel would have to mourn his death. The Jews were trying insurrection anyway, so the idea that they'd rise up against him is silly because they were doing that regardless, just not successfully. He certainly had the means to do it, as sure the Romans were the military power but Herod wasn't completely devoid of power either. His building projects display that. And this isn't a military campaign. It's killing two year olds. So it's not out of character for Herod to do so (I mean, he killed his own wife and three sons...), he had the means to do it, and the consequences of doing it weren't difficult for him to handle. There's no reason to discount Matthew's account, and as for extra-Biblical evidence...

The non Christian historian Macrobius records this event. Do some research. It's not hard.

by **CaptainFritz28** » Tue Jan 07, 2025 6:18 pm

MajorMitchell wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 07, 2025 11:54 am
In order to reach enlightenment humanity must abandon Gods and Religions

Lol.

by **MajorMitchell** » Tue Jan 07, 2025 12:01 pm

It defies the comprehension of the average Christian or Muslim, the concept that their God is irrelevant.
That's the problem with fanatics, they hide, repress their doubts about their faith and use display behaviours of fervently believing to avoid truths, admitting they have doubts.
The fkn Taliban are a wonderful example of the dangers of religious beliefs

by **MajorMitchell** » Tue Jan 07, 2025 11:56 am

It's a subtle point that Buddhists might appreciate

by **MajorMitchell** » Tue Jan 07, 2025 11:54 am

In order to reach enlightenment humanity must abandon Gods and Religions

by **MajorMitchell** » Tue Jan 07, 2025 11:52 am

The irony of this contest of ideas is that patronising belevers in God's assume that it is their task to guide non~believers to an understanding of the cosmos and of ourselves by believing in a particular God.

They are blinded to the idea that it is they who have embraced ignorance and are the ones who need non believers to help them better understand themselves and the cosmos in which we live.

by **MajorMitchell** » Tue Jan 07, 2025 11:48 am

Well which of the two opposing versions of the slaughter of young makes on the alleged orders of King Herod that you have presented In your psts is the fkn one you assert is "trus according to the Bible" (with NO OTHER EVIDENCE) dear Learned Sloth?

In your first mention if it in the quotation of a selective portion of scripture ending with the "great lamentations" etc that would have aroused great interest amongst the Roman rulers of Palestine and been controversial and recorded in other sources but us not....

However when you need to refute my inconvenient contributions on the issue, ask I ng "where is supporting evidence?"...
Then suddenly, et voila~ the slaughter of the make children was barely noticed?

And your evasive "Where is the evidence it didn't happen?" is such a pathetic attempt at avoiding admitting there is no evidence other than what is concocted in scriptures

by **learnedSloth** » Mon Jan 06, 2025 2:36 pm

MajorMitchell wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 02, 2025 12:38 am
Thank you Learned Sloth for your comments about the Corrupt Priests who sought the death of Jesus.
Corruption within organised religions is a common systemic fault in all religions in my opinion, the differences are in degrees and forms of corruption.
Which LS avoids mentioning, corruption within churches today, but we are discussing the original Nativity so it's reasonable to stick with that topic on this occasion.

I think I have better use for my time than warning about corruption. It would be as unproductive as showing photos of counterfeit bank-bills; the next print run would just look different. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

MajorMitchell wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 02, 2025 12:38 am
The act is politically impossible, King Herod did not have the power to do such a thing, the Romans had military power and political control, King Herod was the King the Romans appointed and a servant of the Roman Emperor.

He was a client king. Judea had not been incorporated to the empire yet.

MajorMitchell wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 02, 2025 12:38 am
It's also impossible at a practical level, the Jews would have assassinated King Herod if he had tried to kill all those young children.

Who says they didn't? He seems to have died soon afterwards:

19 ¶ But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,
20 Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child’s life.
21 And he arose, and took the young child and his mother, and came into the land of Israel.
22 But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judæa in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee:
23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.
(Matthew 2)

MajorMitchell wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 02, 2025 12:38 am
A genocide on that scale would have been "big news"and the stories of the tragedy spread to other nations and recorded....
Hasn't happened... where are the independent pieces of evidence Learned Sloth?

I think you overestimate the historical significance. Matthew doesn't mention numbers, but I think Bethlehem had significantly less inhabitants than Jerusalem nearby.

by **MajorMitchell** » Thu Jan 02, 2025 12:38 am

Thank you Learned Sloth for your comments about the Corrupt Priests who sought the death of Jesus.
Corruption within organised religions is a common systemic fault in all religions in my opinion, the differences are in degrees and forms of corruption.
Which LS avoids mentioning, corruption within churches today, but we are discussing the original Nativity so it's reasonable to stick with that topic on this occasion.

I cannot speculate on "What Octavious meant".
I think it most unwise to speculate or assert anything in that line, what Octavious means when he makes public comments only Octavious can explain with the clarity and lucidity needed, doing that is beyond my intellectual capabilities.
(And I would diplomatically suggest way beyond your intellectual capabilities Learned Sloth with Bible or without Bible)

King Herod.
Of course King Herod, a politician, would indulge the three wise men at his first meeting with them.
What King Herod privately thought of the three wise men is not known and cannot be known.
King Herod would receive all types of visitors, as a politician he would often be dishonest and use methods we consider corrupt.

As to the unsubstantiated allegations of King Herod ordering the deaths of thousands of very young children they should be treated as dishonest propaganda.

Where is the evidence apart from this allegation in the Bible which was concocted much later?
The act is politically impossible, King Herod did not have the power to do such a thing, the Romans had military power and political control, King Herod was the King the Romans appointed and a servant of the Roman Emperor.

It's also impossible at a practical level, the Jews would have assassinated King Herod if he had tried to kill all those young children.
A genocide on that scale would have been "big news"and the stories of the tragedy spread to other nations and recorded....
Hasn't happened... where are the independent pieces of evidence Learned Sloth?

by **learnedSloth** » Wed Jan 01, 2025 4:58 pm

I agree that the chief priests plotted his death; they paid Judas to betray him and moved the multitude to demand the crucifixion. But surely Oct meant

7 Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.
8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.
9 When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.
10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.
11 ¶ And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.
12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.
13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
16 ¶ Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men.
17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying,
18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.
(Matthew 2)

by **MajorMitchell** » Wed Jan 01, 2025 9:59 am

At the time of the "First Natitivity Play" the Jewish people worshipped in traditional ways to their God Jehovah as the Christian God was in what I would describe as "embryonic form" with regard to being recognised by human primates as a God after the Disciples (eg Peter with his letters etc) went about preaching after the crucifixion etc.

King Herod held his authority with the consent and support of the Romans who ruled these problematic subjugated regions of their empire.
So I would suggest that King Herod would give greater obedience to his Roman masters and his faithful wife and political partner, his wife than any apparitions claiming to be an Angel with a message from Jehovah.

I dislike any unfair criticisms of King Herod with regard to the persecution of Jesus.

The real troublemakers in the persecution, trial and crucifixion of Jesus are as usual, the Priests who cannot tolerate young Jeses the reformer.
The corrupted Priests were in business with Moneylenders in the Temple

There are many salutary and useful lessons in examining the role of the Priests in the political and religious crisis that culminates in the trial and crucifixion of Jesus.

Such critical analysis of the corrupt Priests is shunned by most modern proselytisers for the Christian God.
Too many similarities with their own behaviours is the primary reason for the ways Church authorities prefer to sanitise history.

by **CaptainFritz28** » Mon Dec 23, 2024 9:29 pm

Ah, gotcha. I see it now.

by **learnedSloth** » Mon Dec 23, 2024 8:56 am

CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 22, 2024 6:41 pm

learnedSloth wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 22, 2024 11:10 am
Mainly the prophecy:

19 ¶ There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
(Matthew 16)
I wasn't aware that this was connected with the Christmas story at all. Pardon my ignorance, could you explain it further?

I just replied to Oct that thought that an angel could have persuaded Herod more than Micah 5:2.

by **CaptainFritz28** » Sun Dec 22, 2024 6:41 pm

learnedSloth wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 22, 2024 11:10 am
Mainly the prophecy:

19 ¶ There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
(Matthew 16)

I wasn't aware that this was connected with the Christmas story at all. Pardon my ignorance, could you explain it further?

by **Jamiet99uk** » Sun Dec 22, 2024 1:20 pm

Octavious wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 22, 2024 10:56 am
You think a trio of passing travellers claiming to be wise, and an old and poorly interpreted prophecy, would carry more weight than a personal visit by an angel?

In what universe??? It's a bloody angel!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_ln2ALDT6E

by **learnedSloth** » Sun Dec 22, 2024 11:31 am

I think the testimony of one risen from the dead would carry at least as much weight as that of an angel.

And now I notice that I wrote Matthew instead of Luke. That was in the 16th chapter of Luke.

by **learnedSloth** » Sun Dec 22, 2024 11:10 am

Mainly the prophecy:

19 ¶ There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
(Matthew 16)

by **Octavious** » Sun Dec 22, 2024 10:56 am

You think a trio of passing travellers claiming to be wise, and an old and poorly interpreted prophecy, would carry more weight than a personal visit by an angel?

In what universe??? It's a bloody angel!

The original nativity scene and how it was made

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