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Finished: 03 PM Tue 29 Nov 11 UTC
A Quick Sunday game.
5 minutes /phase
Pot: 70 D - Spring, 1906, Finished
Classic, Anonymous players, Survivors-Win Scoring
1 excused missed turn
Game drawn
23 Oct 11 UTC I am also leaving my cancel vote up for the crowd.
23 Oct 11 UTC In my experience, these games never get unpaused - there's always someone who can't restart it! I know it may sound rubbish, but the best thing in my opinion is to draw it. England - I know that means you losing out on a win, but at the end of the day, this game probably won't be restarted for eons - and it's best you pumping what you've won into some other game. That's my opinion, anyhow!
23 Oct 11 UTC Appreciate it France. I am perfectly happy to cancel, but dont want a four way draw that is not in fact a four way draw. I will leave the cancel up, and try for an unpause, but if the three of you prefer to cancel, I can get behind that too. The one thing I dont think I am willing to do is draw.
23 Oct 11 UTC Thanks guys. Im sorry to start this mess. Maybe we could email the mods and get them to turn this into a 1 day a turn game? And england, there is no way you can beat all three of us!
23 Oct 11 UTC yeah, whats so bad about a 4 way draw?
23 Oct 11 UTC I think what England is saying is that with this situation, a four-way draw would be a compromise that doesn't fit the facts; whereas a cancel would at least be true to the situation that emerged, unbalanced, at the beginning of the game.

I still think, though, that given mine and Austria's determined resistance, and Turkey's ABILITY to help out, from this point, that England doesn't have enough SCs to warrant the assertion that a draw would simply be a compromise on his point. There is enough resistance to his (admittedly strong) position for a draw to be merited - my personal opinion, take what you may!
23 Oct 11 UTC And if england draws, we are out of this mess.
23 Oct 11 UTC And by the way, we are fine, my brother broke a wrist and had to go to the ER, leaving me in charge of everything including the neighbor kid we were watching and the home maintenance people. What a cluster!
24 Oct 11 UTC Very happy news Austria, and thanks for sharing (not happy about wrist, but that is all there is).

And yes, France, you captured my position quite accurately. I think that this game isnt quite worth it--I didnt earn a solo, if thats how it plays out, and we didnt earn a draw, should that be in the cards. (I am 90% sure this game is not a draw). I am happy to move to a day a turn game, or to cancel. I just do not think drawing is worth it,.
24 Oct 11 UTC And so here we come to a clash of diplomacy philosophies, I think - three of us convinced that a draw is not unreasonable, and that you never EARN it anyways, but compromise to reach it; and you, England, believing that whatever result you get should be totally earnt, or the game should be cancelled.

I don't think either side is going to back down, though, considering the difficult logistics of restarting the game. Might I suggest that, having been unable to convince us of your reasoning, it is now your responsibility to take on-board the majority view and draw the game? Or does that still not stand?
24 Oct 11 UTC France, I appreciate the effort and see your point. But no, I do not see it as my "responsibility" to draw for three reasons. (also-calling it a responsibility is akin to calling me rude if I dont-fair enough, if thats how you see it, but lefthanded insults are not a great way to convince me to change my mind).

First, this is not a draw/cancel dichotomy. We can restart. If we set a time well enough in advance, I would trust that we could all sign on. Or, when Turkey checks in in a week, we could all agree for a move a day plan. So there is no pressing need for me to " back down" without having ever heard Turkey's views.

Second, this is not a draw. Any simple way you add it up, should the game re-begin, I solo. I can't explain why without giving strategy hints, but I imagine most would agree.

Finally, while you have pitched this as a 3-1 dichotomy, I disagree. Turkey hasnt checked in at all, so I cant trust in his draw vote that was up before the pause. And I dont count Austria. It may be insensitive, but in my view he has no vote in the outcome because it was for him that we needed to pause. If I had been a jerk and refused to pause, he would have CD'ed , and again-I would have soloed or we would have cancelled.

Thus, I am going to leave my cancel vote up. If any of you want to propose a date for rebeginning, I welcome it. But just as you see my refusal to draw, you should see your refusal to rebegin or cancel.

I truly enjoyed this game, and all the sports in it. But I have to do what I think is right here-which to me is either take an unearned solo or cancel.
24 Oct 11 UTC Okay - I'm hearing you - just wanted to get this game out the way, because I'm going into a month-long course that's gonna need my full attention, and no diplomacy! I wasn't being rude, by the way - sorry if it looked that way! Let's wait for Turkey.
24 Oct 11 UTC Oh, and i want to say a cancel would give italy, germany, and russia back the points we earned, and no one wants that (but them of course) i myself will never cancel and give up all our earnings.
28 Oct 11 UTC No worries, France, Im just the sensitive type. But let me add a fourth reason to those above, however: If we were to begin again, I would solo. Therefore, I think my vote counts most.

And as for our "earnings" do we really want to get into a pissing match over 7 points? If so, and given Austria's courtesy, we will all lose 10 rather than gain 7 as this stalls interminably. Had Austria not said his last about never canceling, I would likely have been willing to accede after Turkey shows back up. I am less sure now.
28 Oct 11 UTC Pragmatically: there's no point all our points rotting in a game-vault, so we might as well cancel - even though I don't really agree with the principle behind it. Hope y'all can stomach it! Or else this game just isn't ever going to be played...
28 Oct 11 UTC I will put out an alternative. Since we all seemed available on Sunday, what about planning on meeting on Sunday, 6 Nov, at 18:00 gmt. And I appreciate it France.
28 Oct 11 UTC Sorry England - I'm on the way to London, cramped on a megabus, at that moment! lol.
28 Oct 11 UTC If i can do so.
29 Oct 11 UTC well, being Turkey i wouldnt like this game to be a one day phase, and i also believe that no matter how great your stratigy is, england, that you need 7 SC's from 3 bordering nations that are all aginst you....
30 Oct 11 UTC though just draw england, theres nothing you can do.
01 Nov 11 UTC Turkey--assuming you all are truly allied against me, you still cant stop me. The issue is fleets. I have them. You dont (only two), and cant have enough to stop my flow.

France will lose two centers this year. Even if Austria is willing to give him two centers (unlikely), France still only has one fleet. Austria only has one potential naval build center, and its three moves away from supporting the western med. So are Turkeys builds.

In short, I capture two of france's centers this year (take your pick among por, spa, mar, bre, or even potentially par). France has to destroy, and then I own the seas with two fleet builds. France then has a choice--stick with the alliance and likely die, or fight for himself and a survive, with points as I help him build as well. That is why I solo--France either commits suicide in an attempt to hold a stalemate line, which likely fails, or turns against the alliance. Ultimately, the alliance cant hold back the naval power. And that is why I wont draw.

But I can understand France's hesitation on the live game. Maybe a move every couple days (say 72/hr turn game?). Having thus laid out my strategy, it would be interesting to me to see how it plays out. And I wont draw, Austria--at least you should have the decency to vote cancel, its your needing to bounce on a live game that caused this kerfluffle in the first place.
02 Nov 11 UTC (yebellz): Hello All,
We have been contacted about forcing a draw in this game. We will not force a draw except in obvious stalemate situations where the player holding out does not have a plan other than to wait for others to NMR or misorder.

In this game, it appears that England does have a strategic plan to attempt a solo. Whether or not it is sound, he has every right to follow through with it, and is in no obligation to reveal the details of that plan to the other players.

As such, we will not force a draw at this stage in the game.

Hopefully, you can all come to some sort of agreement to resume and complete this game.
We are here to help you get this game resumed and completed. If you all want the phase lengths changed, we can do that. If a player cannot continue and wishes to be replaced, we can force CD him to let a new player take over.

Let us know if you any further assistance.
03 Nov 11 UTC From the mods email, it looks like we can indeed rebegin this game. I propose rebeginning on 11/11 (in honour of Remembrance Day), with 72/hr phases. For anyone that disagrees, (a) vote cancel, (b) ask the mods to replace you per the above.
03 Nov 11 UTC Whoever picked the name of this game, has it completely wrong.
03 Nov 11 UTC hahaha.
03 Nov 11 UTC Well, we need to have a mod adjust the phase lengths.
03 Nov 11 UTC yes. I am happy to ask them to do so, but imagine we need global press from the four active players indicating their assent, which is why i set it 8 days out.
03 Nov 11 UTC i agree
05 Nov 11 UTC I still want draw... but we can elongate the phases for this game... i feel like the drive to play is lost for me, but i will still stick around... i came to far to leave now
06 Nov 11 UTC So we have yesses from Austria and Turkey. France?
09 Nov 11 UTC I hate to do it, but I am going to need a pause next week, from tuesday to tuesday. Can you all please vote pause so I can pause when I need to?

So we cant unpause yet.
12 Nov 11 UTC I'm up for starting again whenever - sorry, I only just saw this whole thread. But I've got lots on, so would prefer it was a move-a-day thing
12 Nov 11 UTC ok... this has been 2 weeks now? can we please just draw?
12 Nov 11 UTC If england wills it.
12 Nov 11 UTC I WANT TO DRAW AS WELL!!! lol - it's such a drag now!
12 Nov 11 UTC i tried a force draw to no avail
14 Nov 11 UTC Actually i leave a week on wensday so leave the pause till a week later please.
15 Nov 11 UTC the move every other day thing seems to be most people's wish in the absence of a draw/cancel. And I am sure my stubbornness has turned the board against me. So we shall try that. Assuming when Austria gets back that he is amenable to 48/hr turns, I propose we begin on November 25 (should give us enough time to get everything organized and get the mods to change).
16 Nov 11 UTC ok, honesly, i get on here once a week... uslally on weekends... can we please just draw it.... noone care about your ghost ranking....
18 Nov 11 UTC One simple word for you Turkey--Cancel. I solo, so I am comfortable insisting on it.
18 Nov 11 UTC simpler word, draw. the rest of the players agree on it and then we get more than we put in this game. its simple econ...
22 Nov 11 UTC This is starting to irritate me but i will never cancel.
25 Nov 11 UTC Come on and draw. You will gain nothing. We are all against you.
27 Nov 11 UTC I get it Austria. That is why I have proposed numerous restart dates. I am not insisting on a cancel. But I am not going to draw. So the options are (1) restart on a date that we can agree on, (2) cancel -- which you will not do, and (3) draw -- which I will not do. Seeing options 2 and 3 eliminated, why dont you propose a date for 1.
27 Nov 11 UTC December first is a good date. though holiday pauses might be needed.
27 Nov 11 UTC December 1, Turkey/France? And I will ask the mods to make it 90/hr phase so it doesnt interfere with peoples schedules.
28 Nov 11 UTC Do you really expect to solo in this game England?
28 Nov 11 UTC I don't know. I imagine my refusal to cancel has you all pretty well gelled against me. But there is certainly a decent chance of it, because of the naval power imbalance.

More than anything else, Im annoyed with you, Austria. It was your emergency that forced us to pause. I imagine that at that moment, you would have taken a cancel or anything that would have made the game go away so you could deal with your outside issues. I am glad that you were able to deal with them, but then you came back and announced (before I had made any decision on drawing) that you would never cancel. That's poor form in my book since you are the reason we are in this predicament in the first place. If you had CD'ed (i.e., if I wasnt nice enough to vote pause), I would certainly have soloed. You dont have the courtesy to return the favor.

I do feel poorly, especially for France, who has been a good sport about this. Maybe I too am being a poor sport, and should be the bigger man. But, being that I think I would have soloed without the pause, and may still solo now, I do feel comfortable asking for the cancel. If you arent willing to do that, so be it.

I look forward to seeing what happens when the game starts again.
28 Nov 11 UTC I thought about it, and felt too bad for France. Diplomat33, you are on my ban list. The rest of you, it was a pleasure.
06 Dec 11 UTC Thanks for the draw england!

Start Backward Open large map Forward End

England
virtuslatin (130 D)
Drawn. Bet: 10 D, won: 18 D
11 supply-centers, 11 units
France
MagicLantern (102 D)
Drawn. Bet: 10 D, won: 18 D
9 supply-centers, 8 units
Austria
Diplomat33 (243 D (B))
Drawn. Bet: 10 D, won: 18 D
9 supply-centers, 9 units
Turkey
Catch23 (0 D X)
Drawn. Bet: 10 D, won: 18 D
5 supply-centers, 5 units
Italy
mittag (391 D)
Defeated. Bet: 10 D
Germany
Defeated. Bet: 10 D
Russia
Stany (603 D)
Defeated. Bet: 10 D
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