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Finished: 10 PM Mon 06 Dec 10 UTC
Private Metagaming game
1 day, 12 hours /phase
Pot: 140 D - Autumn, 1913, Finished
Classic, Public messaging only, Survivors-Win Scoring
1 excused missed turn
Game drawn
01 Dec 10 UTC Spring, 1913: Thx for the advice drano - i'll comment after turkey does. In the mentime repeat you orders please
01 Dec 10 UTC Spring, 1913: l. o. l. Eliminate France and Italy = England sits at 17 SCs with Berlin literally in the palm of his hand. Durden is pretty legit and I would expect that if he could get the win easily then he gladly would, but it's pretty obvious that trying to squeeze us = English win.
01 Dec 10 UTC Spring, 1913: Eden - You have to consider the possibility of England doing as I suggested. If he gave up SCs to me as he gained them from France, he could stay at 14 or 15 while Durden grows to 15 and then they'd be in the spot where if either of them tried to solo, I'd have enough influence to throw SCs to the other player to keep them from doing so. It's not impossible to do at all.
01 Dec 10 UTC Spring, 1913: But why on Earth would England agree to that? Ensure a three-way draw vs. keeping the gains for himself and guaranteeing a victory? If he wanted to draw the game he's a click away.
01 Dec 10 UTC Spring, 1913: But he's *not* guaranteed a victory. If he DOESN'T agree to some sort of SC swap, Turkey definitely won't agree to eliminate you and France. But if he DOES agree to an SC swap, Turkey *might* agree to it.

As for a draw, Maniac clearly doesn't want a 5 way draw. That's his prerogative and you can't argue against it.
01 Dec 10 UTC Spring, 1913: He could agree to it now and then not do anything about it. I know lying and backstabbing isn't exactly England's way -- right, Germany and France? -- but if the dominoes start falling and it ends up that he's getting the gains early and y'all start waiting on him to give up SCs, don't be surprised if it doesn't happen.

Clearly he doesn't want a 5-way, that's pretty apparent. But he's not doing anything to reduce it when he could be. He said he would be fine with a 4-way draw earlier in the game. So why hasn't that happened? The answer is obvious: He wants to win, and he knows he can if Turkey agrees to attack France and Italy.

I'm also curious why the burden of reducing the draw and abandoning allies has been placed, not on the leading power who incidentally is also the one best equipped to eliminate another power, but on the second-strongest power who is ill-equipped to kill either of his allies. If a draw were really in the works, England would have already made the first move. He hasn't. Therefore we conclude that a draw is not really in the works.
01 Dec 10 UTC Spring, 1913: Yeah, that's what I was trying to tell you guys when you were still thinking I was the solo threat. Maniac can take two more SCs at any time he wants. For me to take one SC I risk the stalemate line and crfeate a vindictive enemy in the middle of my lines.

I've never played with Maniac before so I don't really know, but I don't buy that line about wanting to keep Germany alive for the draw. A few years ago you were Hell-bent on taking him out. If I hadn't suddenly beaten Austria and Germany hadn't pushed into Russia before me then there's no way Maniac would've decided to keep him alive. To me that means drano's alive because he's conventient. As soon as he stops being convenient, or gets in the way of Maniac's solo, he's gone.
01 Dec 10 UTC Spring, 1913: Exactly. No one on our side of the table is taking the bait.

Obviously, France and I must stand by Turkey to get a draw. If he stabs either of us we help England solo. If we try to stab him we have no way of stopping an English solo.

Germany must stand by England; he is quite literally at England's mercy. If England stabs him, he could try to throw the game to Turkey, but I don't suspect he'd get very far; if he stabs England then England just nukes him and moves on.

So the impetus is on either England or Turkey. Turkey cannot afford to stab Italy (or else Italy will help England take Iberia and Marseilles, which basically means England solos) or France (France throws his centers to England, England solos), so Turkey must stay the course as well. It's on England to make the move: either draw now (my preference and I'm sure everyone else's preference) or kill Germany and draw (not desirable, but at least a VIABLE option).
01 Dec 10 UTC Spring, 1913: I don't even know why you guys are arguing about an English solo anymore. Right now, it's impossible. Turkey moves to W. med and N. Africa and *boom* stalemate. At that point, Turkey still has 2 fleets available (and an army in Vienna that's not needed to hold the stalemate line, and a build still) to move on Italy if he wanted. Slow and steady, Italy could be eliminated, and even if France lost Marseilles (which isn't a guarantee because a Turkish fleet could support hold marseilles as easily as an army in piedmont), Turkey could have sufficient fleets to keep Spain alive indefinitely. So even if Maniac took Berlin and Moscow and Marseilles, he's only at 17.
01 Dec 10 UTC Spring, 1913: And while we're on it: here's a possible Turkish stab of Italy:

Spring: take W. Med and N. Africa, move Ionian - Tyrr, Adr - Ionian, Vie - Tri.
Fall: Tri - Ven S Tyr, Tyrr/Ion take Naples and Italy is at 1 SC all of a sudden. The Med stalemate is still secure, and Italy doesn't have any chance to throw enough SCs to England because he'd be at one unit.
01 Dec 10 UTC Spring, 1913: What do you take us for, complete retards? There are people who spend their free time in sheep orgies who could tell that's a terrible fucking plan. What happens when, in the fall, Italy notices I'm about to try and rape his centers? He'll do everything possible to screw us over, and he'll at least succeed in helping England take Marseilles. Furthermore, with both Tyrolia and Vienna moving on Italy, my stalemate line becomes the Maginot Line. No thanks, I'll wait for England to stab you. It's jsut a matter of time.
01 Dec 10 UTC Spring, 1913: I said it was a possibility genius, not the only option. There's plenty of time for you to arrange your fleets in such a way as to be able to protect France while also attacking italy. Especially if England were to withdraw some forces as he claims he's willing to do.

Not to mention that I already accounted for England taking Marseilles. It does nothing to hurt your defensive line provided you have a fleet in W. Med and N. Africa so that you can safely SH Spain. Consider: W. Med SH Spain, Por SH Spain, N. Africa SH W. Med. Now tell me how England is going to take Spain. Please. Not to mention that if Italy supports England into Marseilles, that means he automatically would be surrendering Venice to your army AND naples. That means you'd have 3 builds and would have an army in Ven/Tyr. Even if you lost Tyrolia, you can still fall back to teh Ven/Tri/Vie/Bud/Rum/Sev stalemate line.
02 Dec 10 UTC Spring, 1913: So... Germany, what you're saying makes sense, but... why did you just volunteer both of our demises...?
02 Dec 10 UTC Spring, 1913: Because the only thing worse than death is a lonely death :)

Although in truth, its because any plan directing attention to you means less atttention on me. Surely you can understand my plight :)
02 Dec 10 UTC Spring, 1913: You could just urge England to hit the draw button now. I do understand your plight, but I've been imploring Turkey to keep you alive with his units in Ukraine and Sevastopol; I should wish that you'd urge my continued existence as well...
02 Dec 10 UTC Spring, 1913: Yeah Germany, that'd be a nice show of solidarity.
02 Dec 10 UTC Spring, 1913: Italy - You're right, I apologize for urging your removal, but at this time, Turkey has made absolutely no mention that he intends to do as you suggested and keep me alive. So until I hear otherwise, I have to assume that Turkey intends to either A) Kill me if he can, or B) Let England kill me. And since England is looking to lower the draw count, until I hear that I'm safe from someone other than England, I can do nothing other than urge that other people be the ones removed.

Of course, if he would agree to draw now, I'd be even happier, but I highly doubt that will happen unless Turkey states flat out that he is going to keep me alive in Moscow no matter what, and then gets into the stalemate position this turn in the Med. If we could achieve that position, I'd be happy with that for sure.

To England - Buddy ole pal, how about that draw? Things are looking pretty solidified down south, what do you say you vote draw and end things? I'd be sure to extol your virtuous ways in future games and let everyone know how merciful you are to let me live! : )
02 Dec 10 UTC Spring, 1913: <auto response> England is currently away from his keyboard and will repond upon his return
02 Dec 10 UTC Spring, 1913: Turkey, would you be opposed to keeping Germany alive?
02 Dec 10 UTC Spring, 1913: @germany - it has been my stated aim to keep you alive and to achieve a draw of less than 5 people. I still think that with some help those things are achieveable. What I'm less clear about is others' motivations, did anyone else join this game to take part in some witty banter and a 5 way draw?
02 Dec 10 UTC Spring, 1913: @turkey - If i could guarantee a 3 or 4 way draw without any risk to you would you at least consider it?
02 Dec 10 UTC Spring, 1913: Of course not. I joined to win. That didn't work out. I'm now playing for a draw and not being greedy about who's in and who's out. And we all certainly came into the game expecting that, if winning is out of the question, then drawing with any number is superior to losing (by way of allowing another player to win). Turkey, France and Italy stand united on this; Germany is welcome to join us, pending Turkish approval by way of support holding Moscow.

Our motivation is clear. We've all acknowledged that a win is unattainable. We all want a draw. What does it matter how many people are in it? This game is not point-centric (or the bet would be higher than a modest 20-pt buy in). A draw is a draw is a draw on the records no matter how many are included. Win, draw, survive, spite the stabber. That's the priority order that's heralded as the priorities of a true Diplomacy player -- priorities I believe to be the 'best' way to play the game. Winning is gone. Drawing is not. It's as simple as that.
02 Dec 10 UTC Spring, 1913: @turkey - If i could guarantee a 3 or 4 way draw without any risk to you would you at least consider it?
02 Dec 10 UTC Spring, 1913: @eden I respect your point of view but my priorities are different (not better or worse, just different) If I can't win I try to draw with a few people as possible - is that soooo wrong?
02 Dec 10 UTC Spring, 1913: I don't disagree with you in theory. The problem is that there is a risk too him taking out any country on the board. If he attacks italy. Italy supports you into mars. From where you could likely. Dependent on how set up Turkey is. Take spain. Gas, Bur could support Mao there which has a chance of succeeding at that point it's just a mater of you taking Por to be one center short of a win.I know there are ways to counter most of what I just metioned. However it certainly is a degree of risk, that doesn't gain him anything but a smaller draw. He's already stated he doesn't care about draw size so why would he risk it when it might possibly lead to a survive.
02 Dec 10 UTC Spring, 1913: Actually, England, I totally agree with the 'as few people as possible' idea. But fact is, anyone he tries to squeeze ends up screwing him and helping you win. Also, I question the veracity of your stated priorities, considering that you're overriding them to keep Germany alive. If reducing draw size isn't a high enough priority to make even simple steps toward accomplishing it, why take any steps at all, and why expect others to do the same?

DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT SUGGESTING KILLING OFF GERMANY. I'm only pointing out the inconsistency between "draw with as few as possible" and "draw with Germany."
02 Dec 10 UTC Spring, 1913: I am not oppoesed in theory to keeping specifically Germany alive for the draw. However, I would like to lower this down to a four-way draw and it is not feasable for me to attack France or Italy. Thus, it ends up by process of elimination that Germany is the one I vote off the island.
02 Dec 10 UTC Spring, 1913: So then it's down to England wanting Italy/France out, and Turkey (all of a sudden) wanting a 4 way draw too and so wants me out. Since neither is in position to eliminate the ones they want out, shouldn't that be it?

Now Turkey, weren't you fine with a 5 way earlier? After all, you voted draw with 5 members left AND encouraged England to do the same.
02 Dec 10 UTC Spring, 1913: Yes, it should be. And I'll also take note that while Turkey is putting forth a request for a 4WD, he has yet to retract his draw vote; a 5WD can still happen and will if England complies.
03 Dec 10 UTC Spring, 1913: Thank you Italy. I'm fine with 5WD at this point but I would prefer a 4WD.
03 Dec 10 UTC And that last move revealed some more dangerous intentions. It seems obvious to me, at least, that the convoy to Denmark followed with the move to Baltic is setting up a supported convoy into Berlin. This would, of course, allow England to eliminate one of two German units. Doubtless he was counting on Turkey not defending Moscow and allowing Germany to fall.
03 Dec 10 UTC Actually Italy, there's another reason. Convoy Denmark - Prussia. The fleet in Prussia was the weak point of the line. If England really wanted to kill me, he could have just moved Munich - Berlin and supported himself into Munich from Burgundy while supporting Picardy - Burgundy with Gascony. That would have had the same effect and was sure to succeed since I had made no comments to the effect that I was going to turncoat on him.
03 Dec 10 UTC Ah, true.
03 Dec 10 UTC well spotted germany, but minus points for pointing it out :( fortunately i think turk isn't likely to try and breach our line anyway, and if he does we have a fall back - i think we are headed for that 5 way unless Turkey accepts my assurance that I will not attack France until he mops up italy, giving him security of participating in a three way draw. Turkey?
03 Dec 10 UTC @ germany, same supports please, just to be safe
04 Dec 10 UTC Turk - will you consider a smaller draw, or should i draw now?
04 Dec 10 UTC Alas it has happened. Disappointing, but it has...although...with England offering up Moscow and Warsaw to Turkey, that would allow for the destruction of at least 1 more power besides myself...
04 Dec 10 UTC Turkey - please read - Please take moscow and warsaw, i will disband prussia. I will then hold everything until you dismantle italy. Then you will have 17SCs - when you are in pie and secure you could retreat your sothern fleets and allow me to take france giving us 17-17 and secure draw. Let me know if my plan is solid and if you accept my offer of a secire 50/50 draw.
04 Dec 10 UTC @germany, sorry but a five way draw wasn't on my agenda and obviously turk wan't budging until i sacrificed you, if he doesn't accept my offer i will draw the game now.
04 Dec 10 UTC Well seeing as how he's refused all offers of attacking until now, i personally think it's likely he'll "accept", kill me, and then renege on the "acceptance" of the offer.
04 Dec 10 UTC And for a metagaming reason why it shouldn't be a two way split, I say this: Only carebears play for the 2 way draw on purpose! You're not supposed to play that way! : p (cue forum post about the "right" way to play diplomacy?)
04 Dec 10 UTC On a metagame level, i'm really funshine bear and I know LJ Tyler Durden is really Champ Bear, we don't normally talk about it - It's the first Care Bear Club rule - you can guess the second one....
04 Dec 10 UTC Hey, Turkey. Let France and I know if you're going to follow up on England's plan so we can give you Marseilles and get survives while you win, alright? I'll take a 0-SC survive gladly and I'm sure France will accept a 2-SC survive in Iberia if it means not being squeezed out of a 2WD.
04 Dec 10 UTC this looks exactly how I told everyone that it was going to look
05 Dec 10 UTC Where does everyone get the idea that I accepted England's offer? I don't remember agreeing to anything.
05 Dec 10 UTC And I certainly don't trust England enough to try for a two-way draw. However, if Italy and France really want to throw to me I'm fine with me.
05 Dec 10 UTC It's far from my preference. If it's the only way for me not to get a defeat out of this game I'll consider it. But even then only consider it.
05 Dec 10 UTC I never assumed you were accepting the deal... in fact, I'd be shocked if you trusted England enough after the way things have proceeded throughout this game to trust him on a 2WD now. I am quite pleased with your honorable commitment to stopping the warmongering British crown and shall happily assist you in any way, shape or form in this endeavor.
05 Dec 10 UTC good game guys play again soon
05 Dec 10 UTC I'm just glad I didn't listen to turkey and do something spiteful in 1910! I may only be alive because England felt compassionate (or whatever his reason was), but being in a draw is always better than elimination! Hooray for compassion (from both E and T because it turns out Turkey could have taken Moscow this last turn)!

Start Backward Open large map Forward End

Maniac (189 D (B))
Drawn. Bet: 20 D, won: 28 D
15 supply-centers, 14 units
Drawn. Bet: 20 D, won: 28 D
12 supply-centers, 11 units
President Eden (2721 D)
Drawn. Bet: 20 D, won: 28 D
3 supply-centers, 3 units
damian (675 D)
Drawn. Bet: 20 D, won: 28 D
3 supply-centers, 3 units
drano019 (1003 D)
Drawn. Bet: 20 D, won: 28 D
1 supply-centers, 2 units
gman314 (100 D)
Defeated. Bet: 20 D
killer135 (100 D)
Defeated. Bet: 20 D
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