Finished: 10 PM Sat 27 Mar 21 UTC
Put the burned in an urn-3
1 day, 12 hours /phase
Pot: 85 D - Autumn, 2009, Finished
World Diplomacy IX, Public messaging only, Anonymous players, Draw-Size Scoring
0 excused missed turn
Game drawn
25 Mar 21 UTC [USA]:@Libya - your insight is interesting but we must be looking at the map a bit differently - you seem to see me as expanding and winning vs argentina but it's pretty much a stand still as argentina fighting well (and agents causing mishaps to distract and stress people)
25 Mar 21 UTC [USA]:@pac russ - i've pretty much (well, totally) not been a part of all the dynamics in other areas of the board but i'm guessing that Wcan might not want to move more fleets (beaufort, npo) into the pacific as russia has a huge presence in the north, after booting wcan out of godthab. just saying
25 Mar 21 UTC [USA]:@ghana - do I see a Ghanian fleet in SWA!? rubs eyes -- yes, yes I do!! don't tease me, i can expect good things right? I know with covid and all that I'm not allowed to hug you - virtual hug if you open fire on anything red
25 Mar 21 UTC [Libya]:Yeah, I guess @USA. I expected you to keep Venezuela this turn. With it lost, your forces are split, which kind of throws my model out of wack. But no matter, I shall create a new model, and it shall be glorious.
25 Mar 21 UTC [USA]:haha
25 Mar 21 UTC [Libya]:Also, that was a veeeery, veeery interesting pair of moves for Ghana in the South Atlantic. Maybe they want a piece of the South American clusterfuck pie
25 Mar 21 UTC [Pacific-Russia]:@USA: True. Whatever WCan wants. That's why I'm pushing for a draw now.
25 Mar 21 UTC [Western-Canada]:@USA: You are correct about my fleet in Beaufort. The NPO fleet, however, is free to move south and try to join in against Argentina.

@Vlad: If you're put in danger again, I will assist your defence again. My reluctance to go further against Oz doesn't mean I want to see you fall!

@Russia: I wonder if you would be interested in demilitarising the northern seas? At the moment, Beaufort and Barents are only occupied to prevent each other moving in. I'd be interested in arranging simultaneous moves out, me down to Alaska and you down to Scandinavia, if this would be agreeable to you as well.
25 Mar 21 UTC [Pacific-Russia]:@WCan: Cool! Yeah, I was only proposing we go further if Kenya joined. They said no, so now I'm just gonna sit for a draw once I have territorial integrity.
25 Mar 21 UTC [Oz]:WCan, you didn't answer if you were OK to leave a fleet in Northwest Pacific if I move out of Central Pacific Ocean and Pacific Islands. I still moved out of Central Pacific Ocean because I didn't want to repeat the misunderstanding of autumn 2008, when I thought you didn't want Japan because you didn't answered when I offered to give you Japan. But before I move out of Pacific Islands, I would appreciate your confirmation please. Could your fleet please stay in Northwest Pacific?
25 Mar 21 UTC [Pacific-Russia]:Why would they continue to have a fleet in NWP?
25 Mar 21 UTC [Oz]:Sorry I meant West Pacific Ocean. My bad. Thank you Vlad.
25 Mar 21 UTC [Oz]:Sorry I meant West Pacific Ocean. My bad. Thank you Vlad.
25 Mar 21 UTC [Oz]:Sorry I meant West Pacific Ocean. My bad. Thank you Vlad.
25 Mar 21 UTC [Libya]:I think Oz's pc exploded while it sent that message
26 Mar 21 UTC [Western-Canada]:@Oz: Apologies, I somehow managed to miss you out of my last message! Yes, I'm happy to sit in W.Pac if it means my other other fleets have a route through Pacific Islands.
26 Mar 21 UTC [Oz]:Thank you WCan!
26 Mar 21 UTC [Pacific-Russia]:@Russia: Warning you once again, I have to build in East Siberia :( but it's going out immediately.
26 Mar 21 UTC [Pacific-Russia]:Also @Russia: do you want to draw? Everyone's drawn but you now.
26 Mar 21 UTC [Russia]:Damn you all really want the Draw? if so then I will but are people doing it to be complacent or has the game just slow down? Or does anyone want to actually keep playing? Think about it as less about the points/tokens we gain and more about a game. Domination is the goal I think but we have alliances and it is cool for a few people who worked together to win simultaneously. But We are 8 different people who achieved different goals and we have not all worked together for this. I would like to bring that number down a bit and have more fun. Additionally, we need to continue the show for Libya and those who are watching the game. but if everyone wants the draw I will draw. let me know.
26 Mar 21 UTC [Russia]:if we draw can we get another game set up???
26 Mar 21 UTC [Pacific-Russia]:I'd love another game! It'd be perfect since none of us would know who the others are (because it's anon), but we'd (hopefully) be the same people!
26 Mar 21 UTC [South-Africa]:I guess I will try me chance again :)

Also I was supporting Russia and Oz from the beginning and I'm so happy that thry both won.
26 Mar 21 UTC [Pacific-Russia]:Yay!! Botswana joins new game!!
26 Mar 21 UTC [Libya]:I too would enjoy another game
26 Mar 21 UTC [Ghana]:Lets draw and do a rematch. Shuffle our countries
27 Mar 21 UTC [Western-Canada]:I'd definitely be up for another game! I'd enjoy the chance to start afresh with the same group of players.

Unfortunately, this game has become a bit stale for me (based entirely on decisions I've made - this has been a great group to play with and I have nothing against any of you!). I guess I could have stabbed USA to make things more interesting, but after putting a lot of effort into keeping that alliance strong I didn't really want to, and I think breaking the biggest promise I've been repeating all game would destroy any trust the rest of the world has in me. Public press has been keeping me very honest!
27 Mar 21 UTC [South-Africa]:But the problem with this map is that Kenya has two neighbors and as Libya is busy with Ghana at first, Kenya can focus entirely on South Africa. South Africa is split in two which gives an advantage to Kenya.
27 Mar 21 UTC [Quebec]:I'd be happy to try another one
27 Mar 21 UTC [Pacific-Russia]:Yeah @Russia I guess it kinda seems like we all want another game and are somewhat tired with this one!
27 Mar 21 UTC [USA]:Sure. I’ve voted draw. Public press games interesting but can get stale
27 Mar 21 UTC [Russia]:Ok i voted! it has been done
27 Mar 21 UTC [Russia]:Put the burned in an urn-4 was just created by me. I hope to see yall there!
27 Mar 21 UTC [Pacific-Russia]:Yep!
27 Mar 21 UTC [Pacific-Russia]:Good game everyone!!!!!!!!
27 Mar 21 UTC [Pacific-Russia]:Also guys I'm sorry for my loads of messages; this is probably the most messages I've ever sent in a press ever.
27 Mar 21 UTC [Russia]:nah I like it
27 Mar 21 UTC [Kenya]:I think public press is entertaining and interesting in the early game, when everyone wants to look good and find justification for their wars without coming across as untrustworthy to future allies, but it can stagnate in the later game when people become unwilling to suggest stabbing allies for fear that it'll paint a target on their backs.

I would probably have preferred playing to a smaller draw, but with WCan ending the fight against Oz and Russia appearing reluctant to take on Ghana, Im not sure where else things could have gone. The alliances seemed too stable.

Finally, I'd just like to extend an apology to South Africa. I know I denounced and mocked you pretty mercilessly during our war, but it was all an attempt to prevent too many others ganging up on me. No offence was really taken on my part

For what it's worth, I probably would have gone for you sooner or later, but the opening moves were genuinely to try for a three build opening rather than to attack you in year 1. ;)

Thanks for the game, all!
27 Mar 21 UTC [Russia]:Oh just so all of yall knew I was just slowly setting up to take the Mediterranean and then I would have attacked Ghana. No offense Ghana but you were not a huge Ally to me and you were the easiest to attack. I would nvr have touched Vlad. And Western Canada was over seas which could cause some difficulties and spread myself to thin.

I was hoping that we didnt draw so that I could stir the pot!
27 Mar 21 UTC [Pacific-Russia]:@Kenya: Totally agree with everything you just said. The legitimacy politics is ever-persistent, it's pretty funny tbh.

@Russia: Thanks! I wasn't gonna stab you either (as if I could, lol).
27 Mar 21 UTC [South-Africa]:@Kenya no offense on my side either and I have to state that neither I wanted to stab you in the beginning but I was so sure that we would fight, I was trying to take advantage
28 Mar 21 UTC [Ghana]:@ russia, i see you are coming near to me. Maybe i should have attacked you first, but i thought we were friends
28 Mar 21 UTC [Libya]:I plan to make my objectives clear at the start of the game, and not move beyond them except to aid my allies. I've always been told by people who play with me in person that my best quality as a player is that I'm trustworthy and have the ability to easily find common ground and compromise. A public press game just makes everyone be able to hear me and see me when I don't lie, which can reap great long term benefits. Good luck to everyone (including me) in the new game!
28 Mar 21 UTC [USA]:Thanks for Good game all. Thanks especially to WCan. We were ‘middle powers’ so it was good to stick together. Russia taking godthab without resistance worried me a bit but you held strong
28 Mar 21 UTC [Western-Canada]:And thanks to you too, USA! It could have been easy for you to stab me early on, just after Quebec was defeated, but I'm glad we could continue as friends!
I did genuinely want to try a full three-nation North America alliance at the start, as I'd seen it work well for the African nations in a previous game and was curious to see if it would be as strong on this continent. It would have essentially put me against Vlad and Quebec against Russia, which would have been a very different game!
Sun 28 Mar UTC [Oz]:Good game! I really enjoyed it!

My initial intention was to attack China. But I finally felt I shall first fence off Frozen. My aim back then was only to take Len & Cas. Until South Africa offered me to take most of Antartica, without even asking anything in return. You could easily have obtained a better bargain if you asked, South Africa.

By then, I had a strong feeling India would attack me as soon as China would no longer be. I probably shall have declared war to India alone, not Vlad too. And I obviously shouldn't have left Antartica undefended. To be honest I didn't trust neither China, USA, Kenya, Near-East, Quebec and Russia, but I miscalculated thinking I wouldn't be the primary target of any of them before long. I was so sure the war in Africa would last longer.

Vlad, I feel you and me have lot in common. We both justify a lot our action with a heavy dose of bad faith. But you did a far better job surrounding you with allies. As soon as we acquire a bit of power, we both recklessly promise the apocalypse to our contradictors. We both act as if we were great tacticians, yet both me trying to invade you and you repelling me afterwards, we made a succession of lame moves.

Kenya, sorry for the time I went and stayed two turns in NWI. I should have explained at the time that I really needed this temporarily against India. I thought that my complete disparition from the Indian Ocean in spring 2005 would appeased your righteous bitterness, by prooving I intended no harm to Kenya. I am always afraid to tire every one because I speak too much, yet you make me realize now that my communication was blatantly insufficient on this front. But to be honest, I still only half believe you when you say this is why you attacked me.

WCan, I was sincere when I advised you to attack your neighbors instead of me. Once Kenya, Vlad and you were all three attacking me, if you didn't changed your mind to attack Argentina instead, I guess I would have ended defeated, but I sincerely think you personnally wouldn't have kept any of my centers for long.

Last, I want to truly acknowledge that every one of you who finished ahead of me, you indeed deserved it, because you did played your cards better. Luck had little to do with it. Congrats!
Sun 28 Mar UTC [Pacific-Russia]:@Oz, I don't know whether that's a compliment or an insult, but I agree! Good game!
Sun 28 Mar UTC [Argentina]:GG
Mon 29 Mar UTC [Kenya]:@Oz - It wasn't so much a direct result of the stay in NWI, as I did realise that was where you were going with it.
I think there were several factors that ended up pushing me to attack you as well. I needed to go somewhere, after all, and my options were you, Ghana or Argentina. When I convoyed over to Antarctica, my description of it as "giving me options" was actually completely honest. As far as I remember, I did not make a final decision about which way to go until close to the deadline of the next turn.

- Public image: Ghana had helped against Libya, Argentina against South Africa, so I could have appeared ungrateful and untrustworthy by stabbing either. Not that this would necessarily have stopped me, it would have just needed to be worth taking that hit. By contrast, I was actively being asked to attack you by several players while you had no real allies of your own, so was unlikely to gain any negative reputation from the rest of the world.

- Opportunity: Ghana had several armies along our border and the all important EAO, meaning he could have convoyed behind my lines if I guessed wrong, while Russia did not appear likely to attack from the other side. Argentina had a lot of fleets in the area, which would have made it difficult to make any significant gains, while you were involved in a large war in the North and had moved much of your power out of the area. I thought I would get the chance to convoy more armies over and take more of Antarctica, but you played an extremely good defence and shut that down while also preventing the northern powers from starting the cycle of loss-disband-loss that can so easily happen.

- My own vulnerability: I had just concluded a two front war that had seen one of my home centres occupied, and the fleet in NWI coupled with you asking me not to build fleets on top of your growing power made me concerned about the potential for a future invasion from the east. Building fleets was the only way for me to get off Africa, and the impression I received at the time (rightly or wrongly) was that you would take this as a hostile move. I figured that attacking you and fighting on a single front was a better option than building the fleets, moving to attack Argentina and potentially ending up with you hitting me from behind anywhere.

I'm not convinced it was the *right* call to make, but that was my reasoning at the time. If I could go back and alter those last turns, I would probably try to properly ally with you and take on Argentina with USA.

Anyway, there's one more thing I wanted to say - I may not agree that 100% honesty is the best way to win (though I agree that staying staying almost entirely truthful is a good idea), but it certainly had an impact on my decision-making this game. I was genuinely torn about whether or not to make the attack, as a 100% reliable ally is a rare thing to find, and I would never have gone for the idea of conveying over to Bombay if I weren't 100% convinced that you would give the support offered rather than just be using it as a ploy to confound my defence. I would definitely be more likely to consider you a better choice of ally in future games.
Mon 29 Mar UTC [Pacific-Russia]:Yeah, about honesty too, I made a baddd mistake those last few rounds when I mistakenly said I had occupied Guanzhong and WCan had occupied Japan. I very stupidly didn't actually check the truth of what I was saying before I sent the message *facepalm* and then even more stupidly decided to try and cover it up by pretending that I "didn't mean literally occupied" all along (stupid).

Start Backward Open large map Forward End

Drawn. Bet: 5 D, won: 11 D
14 supply-centers, 14 units
Eric1984 (3985 D)
Drawn. Bet: 0 D, won: 11 D
12 supply-centers, 12 units
rodtheworm (202 D)
Drawn. Bet: 5 D, won: 11 D
12 supply-centers, 12 units
tsvi14 (257 D)
Drawn. Bet: 5 D, won: 11 D
12 supply-centers, 11 units
Bladerunners (1104 D)
Drawn. Bet: 5 D, won: 11 D
10 supply-centers, 9 units
Drawn. Bet: 5 D, won: 11 D
10 supply-centers, 10 units
limited (19 D)
Drawn. Bet: 0 D, won: 11 D
9 supply-centers, 7 units
JMB22 (2090 D)
Drawn. Bet: 5 D, won: 11 D
7 supply-centers, 7 units
ces20087 (106 D)
Defeated. Bet: 0 D
freeman69 (70 D)
Defeated. Bet: 5 D
noamorris (100 D)
Defeated. Bet: 0 D
Defeated. Bet: 0 D
memorialking (85 D)
Defeated. Bet: 0 D
Fianwa (90 D)
Defeated. Bet: 0 D
lfischl (121 D)
Defeated. Bet: 5 D
Thibauld (2902 D)
Defeated. Bet: 5 D
yavuzovic (552 D)
Defeated. Bet: 5 D
Civil Disorders
Wusti (1603 D)Europe (Autumn, 2004) with 3 centres.
Tweeters (100 D)Frozen-Antarctica (Spring, 2001) with 2 centres.
KinkyCupcake (127 D)Argentina (Spring, 2007) with 10 centres.
Bonatogether (87 D)Ghana (Autumn, 2003) with 5 centres.
SKarlet312 (100 D)India (Autumn, 2003) with 2 centres.
MYRIAD_CARDS (125 D)Brazil (Spring, 2002) with 4 centres.
bananegagnante (100 D)Libya (Spring, 2002) with 6 centres.
DanFaust (100 D)Europe (Spring, 2005) with 2 centres.
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