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Finished: 06 PM Tue 02 Feb 21 UTC
Featured Too Expensive for my Blood
2 days, 2 hours /phase
Pot: 4200 D - Spring, 1919, Finished
Classic, No messaging, Anonymous players, Draw-Size Scoring, Hidden draw votes
2 excused missed turn
Game drawn
10 Nov 20 UTC Autumn, 1904: GameMaster: Game was extended due to at least 1 member failing to enter orders and having an excused missed turn available. This has un-readied all orders.
10 Nov 20 UTC Autumn, 1904: Moderator: (Aurelin): Paused.
12 Nov 20 UTC Autumn, 1904: Moderator: (Claesar): Game paused until Tuesday by user request. If you wish to object to this pause, please email webdipmod@gmail.com
19 Nov 20 UTC Autumn, 1904: Moderator: (Aurelin): Unpaused. Have fun!
19 Nov 20 UTC Autumn, 1904: Moderator: (Claesar): Germany says "Convey my apologies to my opponents and thank them for their patience." and will be replaced.
19 Nov 20 UTC Autumn, 1904: Moderator: (Claesar): New Germany, have fun all!
31 Jan 21 UTC Gg all. Strong play Swordsman. Congrats on making the draw 0k0k0.
31 Jan 21 UTC This game was quite brutal for me with the 3 way attack :(
31 Jan 21 UTC This game was quite brutal for me with the 3 way attack :(
31 Jan 21 UTC Chluke! Long time no see

Good game folks
31 Jan 21 UTC Did I really not prove you couldn't have stopped England without me?
31 Jan 21 UTC I was nervous that we were going to lose without you, or that I would get whittled into a 2-way draw. That’s why I started playing hardball with Austria and seized Trieste
31 Jan 21 UTC @Peregrine_Falcon, was hoping for a Mos-Ukr, War-move anywhere, throw to the solo in Spring 1915. That would have definitely "proved" it.
31 Jan 21 UTC Italy, what was the rationale for opening towards Fra? Faking attack west to then catch Turkey/Austria by surprise?

That was instrumental in giving England a really good start (along with some bad guesses on my side), which then came back to haunt you and others a few years after
31 Jan 21 UTC In my experience, Italy needs Iberia to solo win, and controlling it makes Italy very hard to knock out of a draw. Those centers are very hard to capture in the endgame. So, I consider those captures a strategic priority.l for Italy.

I also think France is overpowered in gunboat and should be crippled if possible.

If you had guessed better you could have defended yourself after I turned around; France is strong defensively. If Austria had blocked turkey from moving to AEG I could have focused on Iberia and maybe made gains. So from my point of view, several things had to go wrong for my plan to backfire.

I don’t mind that England was powered up; once a solo win was not in the cards for me anymore I was hoping for a 3WD with Austria and England. I was angling for that draw for quite some time.
31 Jan 21 UTC You can read my essays if you want to know more:

https://brotherbored.com/tier-list-for-gunboat-diplomacy/

https://brotherbored.com/5-reasons-i-love-to-play-as-italy-in-gunboat-diplomacy

https://brotherbored.com/the-anti-france-metagame/
31 Jan 21 UTC @chluke

I considered it very very strongly in S1916 (Why would I in 1915 when I was being supported in a stalemate line?), but I hoped Austria wasn't a draw whittler above all else. I was mistaken.

I absolutely would have thrown to you in 1913, but you pulled back way too far to capitalise on Austria's moves. I actually didn't think you were even trying to solo anymore, since from what I could tell, there was no way for you to get back into position fast enough. (Which I think was partly proven in 1914.)

I also very seriously considered throwing in 1911/1912 before Austria even stabbed, given their moves first to Bul, then Rum. Regardless of the rest of Austria's moves, it seemed clear to me they still had a hope in the back of their mind to eliminate me, and I considered publishing them for that in advance. Next time, I probably will. Personally, I think that incentive is a major failing of draw-whittling behaviour, but to each their own.
31 Jan 21 UTC @swordsman

Thanks for the insights. My own thought process after seeing Fra get attacked by both Eng and Ger would be to try to clean up east while France mouns a defense, and hope that I can turn back west fast enough to grab Iberia. Sure, strong France is bad news for Italy but that seems unlikely after a Ger-Eng attack. Speeding up France’s fall seems destined to leave you in a two front warfare. But maybe my valuation of solo vs draw prospects are different.
31 Jan 21 UTC @anlari

I’ll continue to tell you what I was thinking if you want to know more. I am an open book when matches are over.

Germany first attacked you on Spring 1902. I was’t sure if Germany would actually attack you that turn, and evidently neither were you as you did not attempt to defend BUR. (A Germany from such a position could have reasonably decided France was under control and gone for BEL and SWE)

So at the time I moved against you, there was a chance E/G were going to attack, but there was also a chance England was about to be harassed by Germany, and England would back off of you subsequently.

I immediately turned around after actually seeing Germany attack you in Autumn 1902. On Spring 1903 I attacked Germany to HELP you, which was the fastest I could possibly lend you aid from the position I had. I did not want you to collapse to England! That was not by goal. I changed sides as fast as I possibly could.

You lost both Brest and Portugal by Autumn 1902 with poor choice of moves (eg not covering Portugal). I have played plenty of matches where Italy nuisances France for 1 or 2 turns just to keep France from being able to beat England and Germany combined (gunboat France can sometimes beat England and Germany with good guesses). It came as a nasty shock to me that you collapsed so fast.

You are right that we have a different assessment of what the draw/win prospects are for these different strategies. I think attacking Austria or Turkey first is more of a “playing for a draw” strategy than attacking (or at least menacing) France first.

Your assumption that Iberia will be up for grabs for an Italy who has already destroyed Turkey and/or Austria is not realistic for a high level gunboat game. Iberia is almost trivial to put behind a stalemate line during endgame, regardless of who controls it. That’s why I try to take it as early as I can if at all possible, because I think my chances of claiming Vienna or Ankara during endgame are far, far higher than Iberia.

Thanks for playing though it was a fun match for me overall.
31 Jan 21 UTC Thanks, looking back you are right about Ger - sorry it has been a while for me :) and yes your help did make a difference - glad to see it was driven by strategic thinking.

On losing Portugal: I had to take a guess between England going for Por or Spain and picked Spain so that I can at least block a second fleet in MAO in case I am wrong.

But I admit at that point of game I knew I had very little prospect of survival so was not investing too much in thinking through my moves.

Regarding the east-then-west strategy: I think my approach depends on a quick collapse of Turkey so that Italy can swing back fast enough before Iberia is consolidated by either side. I admit that requires a succession of lucky guesses, and imperfect coordinator by Eng/Fra once they see the solo coming. Might be because I am not used to such high stakes games
31 Jan 21 UTC I enjoyed that game very much. Thanks to all.
It came as a shock how fast France collapsed and chose to abandon the Iberia Peninsula instead of clinging to it. Germany offered a poor defence.
In the build ’03 when Russia and Germany disbanded their fleet, it seemed clear that RAI had to team against the British solo threat (and get rid of Turkey). It was not obvious to signal it to Russia as I was sitting in WAR. I tried to move out to get at Turkey through UKR in 04, finally, by not protecting it and then letting it be destroyed. (Quite a signal!)
Building a fleet (should have been a confirmation) which was much needed to hold Britain in the MED. I was counting on Russia to build a fleet in STP (which turned out an army)
1905/06 I am not attacking Russia, but have to defend against his pressure on GAL and RUM.
I build a third fleet in ’07 (no threat for Russia) counting what was the most dangerous between holding the stalemate line around MUN or being on time to hold TUN while (finishing Turkey)
I have always counted on Russia to do his part of the stalemate line, but he continued attacking GAL/RUM. And then a mystery to me: we need an army in UKR to support hold WAR, and still Russia thinks I am attacking him while I try to reach a stalemate (England is at 17 by then). So finally in ’15 we get to that stalemate line, I am quite fed up of the Russian attitude. When Britain offers to take him out, by pulling away, I complied.
While I never intended taking Italy out of the Draw (we could have a 4 Way for me, if Russia had read my moves) I understood the taking of TRI, it made sense to assure his place in the Draw.

I am quite proud of having had a great intelligence with Italy, build the necessary fleet to hold England without freaking Italy out, circle VEN until TUS/PIE, stalemating England in the South, finishing Turkey, and … holding back Russia who was not doing his part of the job!
It was a fun game!
31 Jan 21 UTC @0k0k0 I did enjoy our Vulcan mind meld. It was an exciting challenge. Lesser players might have lost TUN to England!

Start Backward Open large map Forward End

England
chluke (10280 D (G))
Drawn. Bet: 600 D, won: 1400 D
17 supply-centers, 17 units
Austria
0k0k0 (4755 D)
Drawn. Bet: 600 D, won: 1400 D
12 supply-centers, 12 units
Italy
swordsman3003 (14891 D (G))
Drawn. Bet: 600 D, won: 1400 D
5 supply-centers, 5 units
France
anlari (8640 D)
Defeated. Bet: 600 D
Germany
RayJay (1802 D)
Defeated. Bet: 0 D
Turkey
SteveT (665 D)
Defeated. Bet: 600 D
Russia
Defeated. Bet: 600 D
Civil Disorders
Puscherbilbo (496 D)Germany (Autumn, 1904) with 6 centres.
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