Finished: 05 PM Tue 16 Jul 13 UTC
1 day /phase
Pot: 54 D - Autumn, 1913, Finished
Classic, Public messaging only, Anonymous players, Draw-Size Scoring
1 excused missed turn
Game won by Aeneas17 (544 D)
08 Jul 13 UTC Spring, 1911: And leave you free to wander into the Mid-Atlantic? Somehow I think not.
08 Jul 13 UTC Spring, 1911: Italy, just to validate what you are ordering this turn: Rom to Tus, Ven hold, Tyrolia hold, Pie support hold Mar. Do you agree with this?
08 Jul 13 UTC Spring, 1911: Do we still have a agreement Englamd
08 Jul 13 UTC Spring, 1911: We do.
08 Jul 13 UTC Spring, 1911: Turkey, I have answered this. My plans as well as what I'm willing to relinquish are outlined in my last message.
09 Jul 13 UTC Autumn, 1911: I understand you're wanting to be left alone in peace but I agree with England neutrality isn't really possible. You have four units that can still influence play. That means it's in both of our best interests for you to keep active. What I'd like to see you do this turn is Tus to GoL, Tyrolia to Mun, Pie to Mar, Ven hold and NorSea to NAO or Nwy or NthSea or Edi or Lon. I will move from Vie to Boh this turn. Do you agree to these moves?
09 Jul 13 UTC Autumn, 1911: I can understand how those moves would help Turkey. I can't understand how they could possible help the italians.
09 Jul 13 UTC Autumn, 1911: Those moves would definitely be 100% pro-Turkey. My real question is: who can I surrender land to while trusting that they will let me survive? Using Tyr to cut support from Munich tells me that Turkey is at least trying expansion into Germany rather than solely through me, which gives me more confidence regarding this.

But it is good to hear both sides of the story: out of curiosity, what would you recommend England?
09 Jul 13 UTC Autumn, 1911: My offer is very stark, but at least i'll be honest with you - If you can slow down the Turks I should be able to get my fleets close enough to keep you alive in Rome. I don't think there is any way to stop the Turks taking the rest of your centres. Any attack on Germany at this point is just gifting Turkey a win.
09 Jul 13 UTC Autumn, 1911: So my suggested moves would be something like:
Piedmont support Tyrolia
Venice -> Trieste
Tyrolia support Venice -> Trieste
Tus -> Rome.
Norwegian Sea -> North Atlantic.
09 Jul 13 UTC Autumn, 1911: No matter which side you choose, i think it's in your best interest not to make it too clear - if you try to hold the turks and make it too obvious they may take more of your centres than they would if they thought there was a chance you were working with them.
09 Jul 13 UTC Autumn, 1911: I welcome this opportunity to have a frank discussion. England has presented his arguments and now I'd like to present mine. It's a bit lengthy so please bear with me but there's a lot to discuss. I think the most important point from Italy's perspective is to understand that I want you to have active units supporting our joint operations, which means Italy needs to keep SC's. Proof of this can be seen last year when I could have supported Russia into Nap and taken Gre and Vie reducing Italy to two SC. If my goal was your elimination, that was the ideal time to do it.

If you decide to use your strength against me or just sit by and watch, it's in my best interest to convert Italian SC's into Turkish ones quickly so I can get new units to fill the roles yours would have had. For example, if Tyrolia attacks Munich I can attack Berlin but if Tyrolia attacks Trieste it's in my best interest to eliminate Tyrolia and take Vie to get a build. The obvious disadvantage is the added time it will take me to get the new unit to the front line but it's better than having to contend with hostile Italian units. As an aside you'll notice I defended Tri two turns in a row. Which is the better course of action for you, tapping Munich and making the unit in Tyrolia valuable or wasting the turn attacking a supported Tri?

In the final analysis I think you have to ask yourself who has the best chance, England or Turkey, of ensuring your survival or defeat. My belief is your best chance lies with me. Italy, I sincerely hope you decide to continue to work with me but if not I completely understand and respect your decision. Once you reach a decision I think it best if you keep it to yourself though. The impact of your moves will be magnified by secrecy.

By the way as an added incentive, if you side with me and make the moves I've suggested, I guarantee you'll get Marseille back.
09 Jul 13 UTC Autumn, 1911: So basically in all that you backed up my last point - it's best for Italy not to let us know what he's doing in order to avoid reprisals. My advice to Italy, if there was a way to give it, would be to not respond to these messages. Of course, with the majority of the phase passed it may well be that Italy won't get round to reading them before phase end anyway.
09 Jul 13 UTC Autumn, 1911: I wouldn't say "reprisals". I'd say countermeasures. Without knowing what he's going to do we all have to make our moves somewhat blind as best we can. It will certainly add to the surprise factor. I expect he'll get to read all comments before 10pm EDT but you never know.
09 Jul 13 UTC Autumn, 1911: I've read everything.Ya'll will find out tonight.
10 Jul 13 UTC Autumn, 1911: Italy, thank you. Your timely arrival in GoL has doomed the English fleet.
10 Jul 13 UTC Autumn, 1911: Well an NMR from Germany kinda kills this game rather anti-climactically.
10 Jul 13 UTC Autumn, 1911: Ber would have fallen anyway but NMR's are always disappointing.
10 Jul 13 UTC Autumn, 1911: Anyway, gg turkey - you've got a trivial win now.
10 Jul 13 UTC Autumn, 1911: Italy, I'd advise you to disband fleet Ven as it's the only unit not on the front lines. I will support Tyrolia to Munich this turn. Have fleet GoL support West Med to Spain or support Piedmont to Marseille. Only Gascony can save Spain so we want to keep Germany in the dark as to your intentions. Naturally, if it looks like Germany will NMR again grab Marseille. Regardless of whether we take Spain or Marseilles first, we simply reverse support the next turn and grab the other. Do you agree with this plan? (Note this campaign would have succeeded even if Germany did not NMR last turn.)
10 Jul 13 UTC Autumn, 1911: Italy, do what you like. Your last moves guaranteed Turkey a win so there's really not much point right about now.
11 Jul 13 UTC Spring, 1912: Italy, I'd like to revise the plan for this turn. Have GoL attack Spa cutting its support. Then I'll move to MAO before F Lon can come to its support. Germany will probably move Bel to Bur. In the Fall I'll tap Gas and you can cut Bur from Mun allowing Pie to take Mar with support from GoL. Do you agree?
11 Jul 13 UTC Spring, 1912: For the purposes of a public chat game, I would rather not confirm each individual move. However, I will say that based on my recent decisions it should be clear what will happen this Spring.
11 Jul 13 UTC Spring, 1912: I understand. After posting my last note I realized I was pressing needlessly. I will continue to send out my thoughts but not expect an answer.
12 Jul 13 UTC Autumn, 1912: Well this should be interesting. Turkey is going to get three builds this turn at least. Munich, Venice and Naples. I almost overlooked Vienna. Thanks for playing guys
13 Jul 13 UTC Autumn, 1912: Italy, out of respect for you that is not what I intend.
13 Jul 13 UTC Autumn, 1912: look Turkey, you could be honest. It's perfect. You would win the game. It would be stupid not to do it. I've excepted that I'm going to most likely lose now and that the game will be over. It's the most likely event, assuming that your in this to win the game. I'm no A.hole but It's honestly what I would have done. The funny thing is that there is almost no way for any of us to in effect stop you. That is unless I support Hold Munich and manage to save Brest by the support of the English. as well as support hold from England in Kiel from Denmark. Prussia with an attack on Berlin to disrupt or capture. That would work what do you say guys
13 Jul 13 UTC Autumn, 1912: What could also happen is he now takes Vienna, Munich and naples. In that case Italy would have to disband two units. That leaves Tureky with 17 SC's and just 1 short of the magic 18. Now assuming that Italy does not believe me, we're then done next round as We would most likely not manage a full recovery. England I'm ordering support move into berlin from prussia. Just so you are informed. Italy I'm going to order an Support hold on Munich.
13 Jul 13 UTC Autumn, 1912: Germany, I think you misunderstand me. I do, of course, want to win and will do whatever it takes to accomplish that feat. However, Italy has been a good ally. I don't want to disrespect him by taking everything in one great stab. I've may commitments to him which I will honor. I also expect you will do whatever you can to stop me and protect your country. It's been an enjoyable game and I look forward to this last stage.
13 Jul 13 UTC Autumn, 1912: If the remander of the group stick together you might loose
13 Jul 13 UTC Autumn, 1912: Italy, you can stay in Mun but moving to Bur is much better. I'll self bounce in Mun so it stays with you no matter what.
13 Jul 13 UTC Autumn, 1912: Fyi, before all of this conversation took place I was actually going to suggest a-Mun->Bur, as it threatens Paris and makes it easier for me to reclaim Marseilles. Of course, I'd prefer to disband less units and stay in the "green" points-wise, but Turkey has been fair and trustworthy in our alliance so far.

@Germany: Diplomacy is a game of..well, diplomacy. Yes Turkey could eliminate me easily, but our cooperation has worked out the last several years with mutual benefit. I think it is common courtesy in this case to honor that when other win conditions are possible. We all realize that each player will ultimately rely on his/her discretion to make that decision; it depends on an individual's play style. However, one could argue that a grand stab is not only unnecessary, but would be damaging to one's credibility as well.
13 Jul 13 UTC Autumn, 1912: Whatever the outcome, thanks to all for making this an engaging and interesting game.
13 Jul 13 UTC Autumn, 1912: Italy, I'm glad you see it that way too. Mar is yours this turn and depending on what England does you might get Lon also.
13 Jul 13 UTC Autumn, 1912: Italy have you read this game description. it's a winner takes all. If I understand the concept that means that you loose everything if you don't win and get all if you do win. Correct??
13 Jul 13 UTC Autumn, 1912: A worthy point Germany. Something that I had forgotten about.
13 Jul 13 UTC Autumn, 1912: Therefore You should be more interested in thwarting everyone else and work with those who have the same interest with you at the years in question
13 Jul 13 UTC Autumn, 1912: Perhaps. But then again, maybe I want a specific outcome.
13 Jul 13 UTC Autumn, 1912: well I assume it's one with you winning. I mean who plays to lose. Well unless it's to oneself that is. Strange if you would allow another player to win because you find that outcome better.
13 Jul 13 UTC Autumn, 1912: As I said he was going to backstab you.
13 Jul 13 UTC Autumn, 1912: Also thanks Turkey for letting me keep Munich. Even though I know I'll not keep it for long.
13 Jul 13 UTC Autumn, 1912: Germany, you miss my point. I will explain when the game is finished.
13 Jul 13 UTC Autumn, 1912: Unless he's hoping for a survive rather than a defeat. Which is also fairly pathetic.
13 Jul 13 UTC Autumn, 1912: I'm more then understand the point of survival. It's way better then being eliminated. I'm looking forward to hear your desired outcome.
13 Jul 13 UTC Autumn, 1912: Italy, I apologize. I misjudged which phase it was. I thought you owned Mun, which is why I bounced instead of capturing it. Otherwise I wouldn't have taken Nap. Simply put, I outsmarted myself. We'll make you whole again this year.
14 Jul 13 UTC Spring, 1913: Italy, this turn I'll support you into Bre. I'd appreciate it if Mar would support WMed to Spa. Bur can take Par or tap Ruh.
15 Jul 13 UTC Congratulations to all. It was a well fought game. I enjoyed the give and take of PMO. Perhaps we'll meet again in another game some day.
15 Jul 13 UTC Good game all. This was my first public chat game-an interesting experience. As Falgata suggested, I went for the survive, which meant being a puppet for Turkey, something I was aware of. Being in the direct path of expansion for Aeneas17, I opted to go for the survival route as my most viable option rather than fight. As a country Turkey is difficult to stop late game, and my relationship with Turkey was far more reliable and trustworthy than with England or Germany. So rather that go for a long shot win, which would probably require more sacrifice on my part and ultimately benefit the other nations, I went for the survive and it worked. For me part of diplomacy is maximizing your chances and when considering this I have realistic expectations. Public chat also obviously impacts what can be successfully coordinated. I'm sorry you think that's pathetic, mendax, but for me its part of the strategy. And I might also question why a player of your experience level is spending their time slinging insults at less experienced players in an extremely low bet game.
15 Jul 13 UTC I'm surprised at how well my alliance with England went. Most games I have played in where England has cooperated with Germany or France they normally backstab the ally. Well played everyone. May we meet again. I hope to take revenge on Aeneas17
15 Jul 13 UTC When one country becomes powerful, stabbing your allies becomes a really, really bad move, however thematic it may seem out of the opening. I was never going to stab Germany because Turkey, with Italian support, was just too strong, and was too much of a threat to solo. As it happened we couldn't hold the Turks anyway.

I would disagree with Turkey being hard to stop. To solo, Turkey needs at least 2 of Tunis, Munich, Berlin and St. P. Tunis of course is easy for them, but with Germany still in the game, Berlin and Munich can get locked down very easily, and it's also impossible for Turkey to take St. P when it's controlled by a fairly powerful England.

Start Backward Open large map Forward End

Aeneas17 (544 D)
Won. Bet: 14 D, won: 54 D
19 supply-centers, 16 units
mendax (321 D)
Survived. Bet: 5 D
7 supply-centers, 9 units
gen_re_lee (255 D)
Survived. Bet: 5 D
4 supply-centers, 3 units
Falgata (100 D)
Survived. Bet: 5 D
4 supply-centers, 5 units
Berkut (114 D)
Defeated. Bet: 5 D
willman161 (100 D)
Defeated. Bet: 5 D
TheJoker17 (181 D)
Defeated. Bet: 5 D
Civil Disorders
badceltics (0 D X)Turkey (Spring, 1908) with 9 centres.
willman161 (100 D)Austria (Autumn, 1903) with 4 centres.
Tracing (100 D)Russia (Autumn, 1901) with 4 centres.
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