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Finished: 07 PM Wed 28 Nov 12 UTC
Private WWI-15
1 day, 12 hours /phase
Pot: 140 D - Autumn, 1906, Finished
Classic, Survivors-Win Scoring
1 excused missed turn
Game drawn
08 Nov 12 UTC Autumn, 1901: That wraps up year 1. What will it be, Italy? Allies or Centrals?
Really, I'd say just go with which you think will be more fun.
08 Nov 12 UTC Autumn, 1901: well now its up to me... i would have liked austria and turkey doing what i would have done in their position so russia wouldn't have been a threat anymore and the game in any case would have been a decided one. But as they failed and the game is still open i decide to have an open game and play with england, russia and france. May the best alliance win, i appreciate all your efforts. I'll be off for the next eight hours sleeping german time, until then you may discuss my decision. good luck everyone
09 Nov 12 UTC Autumn, 1902: I only just realized what Italy meant there by saying Turkey and Austria missed their chance... Had Austria taken Galicia immediately at the start... Whoa that would have been a living hell:P
12 Nov 12 UTC Autumn, 1903: Here’s my proposal: that we draw now. This has been an interesting game, but has been a bit unbalanced to start out with. And the outcome now is quite determined, with a very high likelihood of the Allied Powers emerging victorious. Regardless, everyone played cool, and I feel the need to honor every player here by drawing before anyone gets defeated. So please choose draw if you concur, lest Germany shall fall.
Another note: why not we rematch? This time, we will have Italy join the Allied Powers, but after 2 years of wait instead of 1. But another thing: the Allied Powers should be granted access to Italy’s territories after 1901. Meanwhile, the Central Powers will not be allowed to attack Italy until 1902 ends.
This will allow for a much more balanced and competitive match. Once everyone agrees on it, I will create the match.
12 Nov 12 UTC Autumn, 1903: If you want, we can cancel this game too - either ways.
12 Nov 12 UTC Autumn, 1903: Voting draw.
12 Nov 12 UTC Autumn, 1903: I'm up for tweaking the set-up and trying again.
But I'm also still willing to give this game another year or two before completely throwing in the towel.
12 Nov 12 UTC Autumn, 1903: Sure. But the thing was that I was concerned you wouldn't survive for a year or two..
12 Nov 12 UTC Autumn, 1903: Oh, I think the odds are definitely against me. But I'm still a little interested to see how it goes down.

If the next game also has 36-hour phases, I'd be up for having it start any time and doing both at once. It might be interesting to see how they progress differently.
12 Nov 12 UTC Autumn, 1903: I'm game for simultaneous versions.
12 Nov 12 UTC Autumn, 1903: Surely! But with Italy having 1.5 year wait period or just 1 ?
13 Nov 12 UTC Autumn, 1903: I don't mind playing simultaneously either, but I don't know if it makes sense to have Italian territories passable for allies; if we're trying to create an historically plausible scenario, that seems too far-fetched. I'd be okay with having Italy wait two years before joining (either side? definitely allies?), as I agree that would provide for more balance.
13 Nov 12 UTC Autumn, 1903: Well, it seems like we might as well end up having a stalemate line here:P
13 Nov 12 UTC Autumn, 1903: But 2 years is too long. Even in this game, I could have lost 3 SCs in 2 years easily had you meant to destroy me. The only reason why I'm still somewhat alive is partly from some blunders. If Italy joins 2 years late and Austria-Turkey executes their move effectively, The Allied Powers will stand little chance.
14 Nov 12 UTC Autumn, 1903: Hey gents - as the chat has advanced, we can't seem to scroll back up to the original rules. How many SCs are we playing to, again? Currently allies have 21, centrals 13.
14 Nov 12 UTC Autumn, 1903: Did we have rules for a number of SC required? Didn't realize that - I thought it was an annihilation match:P
14 Nov 12 UTC Autumn, 1903: it was the first to gain 24, after that we should have drawn
14 Nov 12 UTC Autumn, 1903: Allies are at 21, correct?
14 Nov 12 UTC Autumn, 1903: yes
14 Nov 12 UTC Autumn, 1903: So I guess you guys are wicked close anyway, huh? I'd vote for just playing this one out and starting a new one.
14 Nov 12 UTC Autumn, 1903: I'm on for a new one, but I think Italy should wait for like three years rather than just one.
14 Nov 12 UTC Autumn, 1903: well, as italy i might say this is probably a bit too boring. i know, for a balanced game in fixed coalitions there is no other way but waiting three years or just two as italy is completely useless. after that all you can do is support holding you troops and wait for the french to assist you, just as i had to do this game and i only had to wait one year...
14 Nov 12 UTC Autumn, 1903: Another option would be to just forego Italy altogether. After this game, we could just start 2 new ones and whoever gets Italy in those will just go into C.D. It's unlikely to be the same player in both games, but if it is we can cancel and try again.

This is how I've played 2-player games (with no side playing Italy) and it seems to be fairly balanced.
14 Nov 12 UTC Autumn, 1903: Sounds good!
14 Nov 12 UTC Autumn, 1903: How about another alternative: what if Italy cannot move until it is invaded? Sure, makes for a boring game, but hitting "ready" a bunch of times and likely being part of an eventual draw doesn't sound like such a hardship. But this way Italy's allegiance would be determined by the aggression of the other teams; is it worth it to Austria to gain Venice if it means the other two SCs now join the Allies? etc.
Maybe that's silly, but I thought it might be an interesting alternative. Especially considering the likely showdown in the Med, which can hardly be broken without units in Italy, it seems like this would create a system by which Italy joins the game organically and in a balanced fashion. The aggressive alliance would gain whatever ground from their initial attack, while the docile alliance secures Italian help for the rest of the game.
14 Nov 12 UTC Autumn, 1903: i could agree to that
14 Nov 12 UTC Autumn, 1903: Would that include Tunis?
14 Nov 12 UTC Autumn, 1903: i'd offer italy the option to take it without moving any further.
14 Nov 12 UTC Autumn, 1903: Leaving Tunis to Italy might be interesting and make it more tempting/potentially dangerous to attack Italy.
14 Nov 12 UTC Autumn, 1903: Yeah, I think that would make sense, as it would allow Italy to remain a useful player even if a strong first attack takes out more than one SC.
14 Nov 12 UTC Autumn, 1903: exactly
14 Nov 12 UTC Autumn, 1903: I suppose a caveat would have to be that Italian units remain on Italian ground after attaining Tunis - no fleets in the Med or trying to move into the Med, as that necessarily means positive or negative participation in the conflict before being committed to either side. What do the rest of you guys think about this general proposal?
14 Nov 12 UTC Autumn, 1903: yes, that's a necessary condition
14 Nov 12 UTC Autumn, 1903: Works for me.
15 Nov 12 UTC Autumn, 1903: While I do like that new setting, I beg to differ.

Had Turkey, Austria and Germany targeted on destroying me right off the bat, they could have taken all but 1 or 2 SCs of mine within the first year or two. And there would have been limited means for England and France to intervene then, especially if Italy were to remain neutral for the whole 2-3 years. In that case, Germany would have been rather intact, being reinforced by Austrian armies to stand off the assaults from Britain-France coalition. Meanwhile Russia would have been reduced to a small desolate nation, only alive by its holds in St. Petersburg and the Scandinavias - to which state I am now belatedly being reduced to. So I believe 2-3 years of wait for Italy is long enough delay, and that the Allied Powers will be hard pressed enough at that point.
15 Nov 12 UTC Autumn, 1903: Additional info:
By the second year, the Allied Powers without Italy can only secure 4-6 SCs at most, while they'll lose about 1-3 SCs.
The Central Powers in the meanwhile can secure 5-7 SCs, while at risk of losing no SCs at all.
15 Nov 12 UTC Spring, 1904: My mistake.
Central Powers are guaranteed 6 and can grab up to 8-9 SCs max.
They will lose no SCs by the end of year two, unless they make erroneous moves.

The Allied Powers are only guaranteed 4 SCs - very dependent on Germany's maneuver - and can only grab 6 SCs at their best luck.
And the Allied Powers will lose 1 SC, and at its worst 3 SCs.

This is all dependent on how the game plays out but so long as the Central Powers move with with foresight, the Allied Powers stand no chance without Italy - and 2 years is already too long a wait
15 Nov 12 UTC Spring, 1904: russia is mostly correct, its exactly what i meant before entering the game in 1901. As italy is not beginning with the others, austria and turkey must defeat russia within the first two turns which is completely possible but was missed by the central powers this game. In that case i do not think anything could really change the outcome of the war, no matter on whose side italy intervenes, what means i would have entered on austrias side, of course, on the winning side.
15 Nov 12 UTC Spring, 1904: I think you're seriously under-estimating the Allies' position.
By the end of year 2, the Allies should reasonably be able to secure 6 new SCs:
Portugal, Spain, Norway, Sweden, Belgium and either Holland or Denmark (depending on which one Germany tries for). At the same time, the Centrals can also secure 6: Serbia, Bulgaria, Rumania, Greece, Tunis, and either Holland or Denmark. Germany theoretically has access to lots of neutral SCs, but can't count on holding more than one since it is immediately surrounded on three sides by the allies.
Now, Russia will almost certainly lose one SC by the end of year 2, but the Central's can't take more than one SC from Russia AND capture all those neutral SC's at the same time. So after 2 years, the score will have shifted from the Allies being up by 1 (thanks to Russia have 4 home SCs) to the Centrals being up by 1.

Giving either side 3 new home SC's in Italy at that point is a huge advantage. I think it makes more sense to either leave Italy in CD or have it remain neutral until attacked.
16 Nov 12 UTC Spring, 1904: Nope, I'm afraid your analysis might be off. Russia is bound to lose 3 SCs and won't get Sweden if Germany plays it right. 1 army from Germany and its game.

Austria takes Galicia and Turkey moves north. Germany also takes Prussia. At that stage, 1 SC falls the first year. The next year, the other borderline Russia SC will fall, while Moscow itself is at high risk of falling altogether.

This does allow France and England to take Belgium-Holland-Spain-Portugal with no threat, they cannot grab Sweden, and Russia will be too hard pressed to go for Sweden - though its honestly up to Russia. But a German maneuver of entering Livonia will make sure that Russia won't reach too far as to aim for Sweden, spelling doom to Russia with it having 1 SC left. Then its open to the Central Powers to help Germany defend and push France and England back.

Another note: the Central Powers can in the meanwhile grab all of the Balkans, in addition to Warsaw, Sevastopol, Denmark, and very likely Moscow itself. That equals up to 7-8 SCs.

And they don't need to invest too many troops against Russia - and they will have enough troops to capture all the Balkans in two years really. Keep in mind that they can build units after the first year. And they only need a few units to annihilate Russia, as Russian defense down south is very exposed and vulnerable.
16 Nov 12 UTC Spring, 1904: *but they
16 Nov 12 UTC Spring, 1904: Okay my writing was a bit choppy and incorrect, but in summary, a small detachment from Germany will ensure Russia's quick fall. 2 Years and it will be England-France vs. the Central Powers. In no scenario will Russia get more than 1 SC by the end of year 1902 if the Centrals play it right.
16 Nov 12 UTC Spring, 1904: Hmm. I still think that's extreme. Even if Germany moves to Prussia, there's no reason Russia has to lose even one SC in year 1 if it bounces Austria in Galicia and either Austria or Turkey in the South (as you did in this game).
16 Nov 12 UTC Spring, 1904: I tend to agree with Germany, and this is knowing full-well that Murphy's Law dictates I'll end up on the Allied team (or as Italy) next game. Russia, I think your assessment isn't wrong, but I think you're overestimating Germany's ability and reach. If Austria dedicates resources to take Galicia turn one, it's foregoing SCs in the South. If Germany dedicates enough to help take Russia down, he's not gaining enough elsewhere.
I'd still support having Italy come in when attacked and letting Italy take Tunis year 1. This will allow Italy to still be a game-tipping player, but will keep him from deciding the outcome of the whole game on year 2.
17 Nov 12 UTC Spring, 1904: Austria won' be bounced out. Vienna to Galicia and Budapest supports that move.
17 Nov 12 UTC Spring, 1904: So practically it is viable. Germany won't gain many SCs, but Austria-Turkey will grow huge and will effectively stall British-French assaults.

And again, Austria supports into Galicia, which will be game.
20 Nov 12 UTC Autumn, 1904: I think we're nearing a stalemate.. I'm afraid..
It's partly my bad for all my blunders..
20 Nov 12 UTC Autumn, 1904: I think we're still doomed. The centrals are down 6 SCs and I don't think our line can be held permanently without a little luck.
20 Nov 12 UTC Autumn, 1904: Slight miscomm this turn on our side. We could have taken both Munich and Berlin, but ugh... unfortunate;
26 Nov 12 UTC Well, gents, not all hope is lost, but I think we are quickly entering an era of stalemates and immobility. I'm all for continuing to play until Allied victory, but I will vote for a draw in case others want to simply agree to bow out and try anew.

Start Backward Open large map Forward End

England
swann (614 D)
Drawn. Bet: 20 D, won: 23 D
9 supply-centers, 9 units
Austria
flc64 (1963 D)
Drawn. Bet: 20 D, won: 23 D
7 supply-centers, 7 units
Turkey
Dassarri (865 D)
Drawn. Bet: 20 D, won: 23 D
7 supply-centers, 7 units
France
T2Paradis (194 D)
Drawn. Bet: 20 D, won: 23 D
7 supply-centers, 7 units
Italy
owen roe (621 D)
Drawn. Bet: 20 D, won: 23 D
2 supply-centers, 2 units
Russia
Dactylic126 (437 D)
Drawn. Bet: 20 D, won: 23 D
2 supply-centers, 2 units
Germany
dilettante (205 D)
Defeated. Bet: 20 D
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