Seriously, how many times do we need the economic prescriptions of the right to fail utterly before we stop giving them any credence whatsoever?

Why don't we just eliminate the private sector completely and move everyone into government/public sector jobs? Public sector jobs are self-sustaining right?

Ugh. Are you really that stupid, or just doing some bizarre performance art piece?

Emac, standing for the Communist Party.

Here in California, the public sector has barely been touched (aside from giving some customer-facing state government workers 3-day weekends) and the official unemployment rate in my county has been over 10% for three years now (the real rate is certainly over 20%). Apparently maintaining government jobs during a depression isn't always the path to prosperity.

Well the article blames jobs losses on Walker cutting the public sector, so the default logic from the author of the article is that we should bolster the public sector. Which of course is a fallacy because if that were true states like California with virtually untouched public sectors would be doing great. In fact much of the stimulus package from 2009 funded public sector jobs so why didn't unemployment fall the way the advocates of said it would?

Because too much of the stimulus was tax cuts rather than direct spending. And California is at least not hemorrhaging jobs any more; they actually have eight straight months of gains.

As a Wisconsinite, I can confidently say that most of those who didn't like Walker weren't rabidly against him until he started union busting.

I disagree with almost all of his policies, but just shrugged when he was elected. Tommy Thompson was a Republican and he did OK as governor of WI for a very long time. That being said, Walker exceeded his mandate, and the moderates in this state have already turned against him. I'm confident he will lost the recall election.

I'd like to think so, but the sense I'm getting is that there are plenty of people who think Scott Walker's doing a terrible job, but that recall is the wrong mechanism to deal with it.

How so, Bob?

One thing I keep hearing over and over again is that Walker won the election fair and square, and the remedy is to defeat him at the next regular election. There are people who dislike Walker who think the recall should only be used when a governor commits a crime, not for policy reasons.

hmm in a nation where the filibuster is used to ensure you need 67% of the votes to pass anything, I don't think we can expect people to not use every option available to them.

In spirit though, your sentiments mirrored my initial thoughts when i learned of the recall election. This is not gonna stop me from going out to vote to oust that prick though.

Well OH MY GOSH....Democracy will work, and Walker will be thrown out of office. How horrible that we have a government system that only lets people do damage for defined periods of time, as opposed to Communist dictatorships and such.

Funny....because half the time people on here are whining because there are no differences between the parties.

I think Bob's concern, Krellin, is that this precedent will trigger ALL Wisconsin elections to automatically have a recall attempt (just like the filibuster is now routinely exploited in a way that was only occasionally done in earlier times, to my understanding).

It does seem like Wisconsin's recall system is too easy. Whoever wins in June should undertake to amend it. In a sufficiently polarized political climate, this system would allow the loser in any year to force another electionright away.

Here's a total shock: krellin utterly missed the point.

"Apparently maintaining government jobs during a depression isn't always the path to prosperity."

California has fewer state employees per capita than any state in the country. They spend a paltry sum on government employment, compared to everybody else. So if reducing the public sector and handcuffing government revenue streams is the path to growth, as libertarians claim, why hasn't California's economy skyrocketed ahead of us ever since 1978?

And for that matter, fewer than 1% of California's state workers work for any welfare agency. The bulk come from education & prisons. But I guess with the rightists in California destroying their top quality education system at a record pace, that will change.

"Whoever wins in June should undertake to amend it. In a sufficiently polarized political climate, this system would allow the loser in any year to force another electionright away."

Or maybe the governor shouldn't try to destroy the entire middle class in a year's time through legislative shenanigans, leading to the polarized climate in the first place.

A few years back we recalled a sitting governor here in California less than a year after he was re-elected. Gray Davis (aka "Gray-Out", in honor of the rolling blackouts that resulted from his poor policies and the "de-regulation" of the energy cartel) was recalled less than a year into his second term and replaced by zee Governator, after a circus of a recall election that had over a hundred candidates on the ballot. All of the arguments Genghis is referring to here were raised then as well.

The problems in this country are systemic and cannot be thrown at the feet of any one man. Recall your governor and he will be replaced by someone else who will be perceived as even worse as your state swirls around in the toilet bowl. The process will cure your state of any faith in the idea of recalling government officials - I just about guarantee it. The voters of Wisconsin have nothing to worry about - their quality of life overall will deteriorate no matter who is governor. The only question is whose will deteriorate faster - the government workers, or the people who pay their salaries?

See, this is what comes of listening to the economic wisdom of the right.

"California has fewer state employees per capita than any state in the country."

I would ask for a reference for this wild claim, but I expect you are as full of shit as usual. I'm sure you'll point me to a CTA or CPPA 'study'.

"why hasn't California's economy skyrocketed ahead of us ever since 1978?"

Because California has the most anti-business regulatory environment of any state in the union, and a tax burden that surpasses any this side of the Mississippi. Even with Prop 13, we still have an above-average property tax burden on top of a state income tax that tops out at over 9% for those evil rich people making more than $47,000/year and a sales tax of over 10% in some cities. Prop 13 and the prospect of another taxpayer revolt is the only reason this isn't the most heavily taxed (in addition to the most heavily regulated) state in the union.

"And for that matter, fewer than 1% of California's state workers work for any welfare agency"

That's because welfare programs are run by county governments and not the state, dumbass. All that Political Science ejumication, and you still know jack shit about how government actually works. You should ask for your money back from that top-notch university you went to.

Public employees. Fewer than 1% of government workers in California work for any welfare agency. GFY.

As for my "wild claim", again, GFY.

http://www.capitolweekly.net/article.php?xid=ypedn5l6zf57oq

Wild indeed. Tolstoy needs to live in his little paranoid bubble where California is hell on earth so he make his usual bullshit talking points about government (at least if it's helping people) is the root of all evil. Why don't you move to Arizona, where your fascist friends are in power?

The 'study', btw, comes from information compiled from the census. Oh the biased census. It's all a conspiracy to make Tolstoy look like a raving misanthropic fool.

More horse manure from Tolstoy.

California ranks 19th nationally in state and local taxes and fees, at $16.42 per $100 of personal income.

And here's those "higher than average" property tax rates in CA.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/10/business/11leonhardt-avgproptaxrates.html

Here are all the gory details on California, with references:
http://open.salon.com/blog/richard_rider/2012/04/20/breaking_bad_ca_vs_the_other_states_rev_42012

Here’s a depressing but documented comparison of California taxes and economic climate with the rest of the states. The news is breaking bad, and getting worse (twice a month, I update crucial data on this fact sheet):

REVISED: California has the 2nd worst state income tax in the nation. 9.3% tax bracket starts at $48,029 for people filing as individuals. 10.3% tax starts at $1,000,000. Governor Brown is putting on the ballot a prop to change the “millionaires’ tax” to 13.3%, starting at $500,000 – including capital gains. If approved, CA will be by far #1 in income tax rates. We will be 21% higher than the 2nd highest state (Hawaii), 34% higher than the third highest state (Oregon), and a heck of a lot higher than all the rest – including six states with zero income tax.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/bp59_es.pdf

Highest state sales tax rate in the nation. 7.25% (as of 1 July, 2011 – does not include local sales taxes).
http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/bp60.pdf Table #15

California corporate income tax rate (8.84%) is the highest west of the Mississippi (our economic competitors) except for Alaska.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/bp59.pdf Table #8 – we are 8th highest nationwide.

CA has the 2nd highest gas tax (averaging 67.0 cents/gallon) in the nation (January, 2012). National average is 48.8 cents. http://www.api.org/statistics/fueltaxes/ (also CA has the nation’s highest diesel tax – 75.9 cents/gallon. Nat’l average 54.0 cents)

California is ranked 14th highest in per capita property taxes (including commercial) – the only major tax where we are not in the worst ten states. But CA property taxes per owner-occupied home were the 10th highest in the nation in 2009.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/251.html and http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/1913.html

CA has now instituted the highest “cap and trade” tax in the nation – indeed, the ONLY such U.S. tax. One study estimates the annual cost at $3,857 per household by 2020. Even proponents concede that it will have zero impact on global warming.
http://tinyurl.com/WSJ-CA-cap-and-trade

UPDATE: California’s 2012 “Tax Freedom Day” (the day the average taxpayer stops working for government and starts working for himself) is the 11th worst date in the nation – up from 28th worst in 1994, but down from 4th worst in 2009. CA “improved” primarily because of our state’s soaring unemployment rate – the new tax dodge!
http://taxfoundation.org/taxfreedomday

UPDATE: CA has the 3rd highest state unemployment rate. (March, 2012) – 11.0%. National unemployment rate 8.2%. National unemployment rate not including CA is only 7.8%, making the CA unemployment rate 40.7% higher than the average of the other 49 states.
http://www.bls.gov/web/laus/laumstrk.htm

CA needlessly licenses more occupations than any state – 177. Second worst state is Connecticut at 155. The average for the states is 92.
http://cssrc.us/publications.aspx?id=7707

California’s 2012 Business Tax Climate ranks 3rd worst in the nation – behind New Jersey and New York state.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/22658.html

For the 2007-08 school year, the Los Angeles Unified School District spent $29,780 per student. The district also has the country’s second lowest graduation rate of 40.6%.
http://www.calwatchdog.com/2010/08/20/lausd-spends-30k-per-student/

CA public school teachers the highest paid in the nation. CA students rank 48th in math achievement, 49th in reading.
http://www.lao.ca.gov/reports/2011/calfacts/calfacts_010511.aspx page 36

1 in 5 in Los Angeles County receiving public aid.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-welfare22-2009feb22,0,4377048.story

California has 12% of the nation’s population, but 36% of the country’s TANF (“Temporary” Assistance for Needy Families) welfare recipients – more than the next 7 states combined. Unlike other states, this “temporary” assistance becomes much more permanent in CA.
http://weblog.signonsandiego.com/weblogs/afb/archives/034662.html

California prison guards highest paid in the nation.
http://www.caltax.org/caltaxletter/2008/101708_fraud1.htm

For every dollar California pays to D.C., we get back 78 cents. We rank 7th worst.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/266.html

California is the worst ranked state for tax administration – another anti-business factor.
http://www.sacbee.com/static/weblogs/capitolalertlatest/2010/03/cal-rated-worst.html

California now has the 2nd lowest bond rating of any state – Basket case Illinois just beat us out for the lowest spot. We didn’t improve our rating – Illinois just got worse.
http://www.calwhine.com/great-news-california-no-longer-has-worst-credit-rating/1554/

California has the 6th highest (worst) state per capita debt. Not counted is local government debt. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/24/states-debt-combined-may-exceed-4-trillion_n_1029162.html
The American Tort Reform Association ranks CA the worst state “judicial hellhole” – extremely anti-business.
http://tinyurl.com/CA-worst-judicial-state

CA tickets are incredibly high. Red-light camera ticket $480. Next highest state is $250. Most are around $100.
http://reason.org/blog/show/red-light-cameras-and-the-enigmatic

California is tied with 3 other states (Hawaii, Texas[!] and Florida) for having by far the least competitive property & casualty insurance markets. http://heartland.org/policy-documents/heartland-institute-releases-new-property-casualty-insurance-report-card

California has a nasty anti-small business $800 minimum corporate income tax, even if no profit is earned, and even for many nonprofits. Next highest state is Oregon at $150. A few others under $100, with most at zero. http://tinyurl.com/CA-800-tax

America’s top 500 CEO’s rank California “the worst state in which to do business” for the 7th straight year (May, 2011).
http://chiefexecutive.net/best-worst-states-for-business (It’s worth reading the short article, and especially the part about California.)

California, a destitute state, still gives away college education at fire sale prices. Our community college tuition is the lowest in the nation. How low? Nationwide, the average community college tuition is about three times higher than California CC’s. http://www.hecb.wa.gov/research/issues/documents/TuitionandFees2009-10Report-Final.pdf Chart 5 on page 8
This ridiculously low tuition devalues education to students – resulting in a 30+% drop rate for class completion. In addition, 2/3 of California CC students pay no net tuition at all – either filling out a simple unverified “hardship” form that exempts them from any tuition payment, or receiving grants and tax credits for their full tuition.
http://tinyurl.com/ygqz9ls

On top of that, California offers thousands of absolutely free adult continuing education classes – a sop to the upper middle class. In San Diego, over 1,400 classes for everything from baking pastries to ballroom dancing are offered totally at taxpayer expense.
http://www.sdce.edu

Protests about increased UC student fees too often ignore one crucial point -- all poor and many middle class students don't pay the “fees” (our state’s euphemism for tuition). There are no fees for California families with under $80K income. Moreover, Pell Grants and federal tuition tax credits covered the total 2009-10 fee increases for nearly 3/4 of all undergraduates with household incomes below $180K.
http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/blueandgold/ and
http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/news/article/22415

California residential electricity costs an average of 32.4% more than the national average (far higher in San Diego County). For industrial use, CA electricity is 70.8% higher than the national average (May, 2011).
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table5_6_a.html

‎A 2011 survey of home water bills for the 20 largest U.S. cities found that for 200 gallons a day usage, San Diego was the highest cost. At 400 gal/day, San Diego was third highest.
http://www.circleofblue.org/waternews/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/allstats590.jpg

From 2007 through 2010, 10,763 industrial facilities were built or expanded across the country — but only 176 of those were in CA. So with roughly 12% of the nation's population, CA got 1.6% of the built or expanded industrial facilities.
http://podcasts.odiogo.com/city-journal/podcasts-xml.php California Manufacturers and Technology Association podcast

California is now ranked as the 2nd worst state to retire in. Only basket-case Illinois is worse. We “beat” NY, RI and NJ.
http://www.topretirements.com/blog/great-towns/our-worst-states-to-retire-list.html/

Consider California’s net domestic migration (migration between states). From April, 2000 through June, 2008 (8 years, 2 months) California has lost a NET 1.4 million people. The cumulative net annual income lost from this 8 year out-migration comes to about $26 billion. Net departures slowed in 2008 only because people couldn’t sell their homes. But in 2010 the loss resumed -- we lost 154,000 net people to domestic out-migration. Again, note that this is NET loss.
http://www.mdp.state.md.us/msdc/Pop_estimate/Estimate_08/table5.pdf
and http://blogs.sacbee.com/capitolalertlatest/2011/12/californias-population-still-growing-but-much-more-slowly.html
and http://interactive.taxfoundation.org/migration/
These are not welfare kings and queens departing. They are the young, the educated, the productive, the ambitious, the wealthy (such as Tiger Woods) – and retirees seeking to make their pensions provide more bang for the buck. Too often these departing seniors are retired state and local government employees fleeing the state that provides them with their opulent pensions – in order to avoid the high taxes that these same employees pushed so hard through their unions. And once they move out of California, our state can no longer tax their California-paid pensions.

The number of public employees per captia is irrelevant. The tax burden per capita is the relevant statistic and the percentage of state budget that goes to public sector both in current and future payments is also the relevant number. Property tax in California is based on the last sale price. The only people the benefit from Prop 13 are the elderly who bought years ago and never sold. Their taxes don't go up unless they make improvements that required a permit. There isn't a new assessment of value in California like there is in other states. All of the cuts in education have been cuts to students and services. Thanks for all those stats Tolstoy.