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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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Tom Bombadil (4023 D(G))
12 Apr 12 UTC
Because there are those who complain about a lack of Diplomacy Topics
One of the weakest parts of my game is that I don't go to other players with plans, but rather listen to plans, and adapt my strategy. Do you prefer to engage first, or listen to others? And how would you suggest I improve upon actively engaging with other players with ideas rather than waiting for them to come to me?
16 replies
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dubmdell (556 D)
11 Apr 12 UTC
Muting is a curious feature
Apparently, you cannot mute a banned player. I discovered this when I tried muting bullshiot threads to make scouring the forums for an old thread easier. Curious indeed. By one's banning, they become like the mods: immutable.
8 replies
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NigeeBaby (100 D(G))
12 Apr 12 UTC
Full Press games......
....... make me paranoid.
5 replies
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Lando Calrissian (100 D(S))
12 Apr 12 UTC
variants
Frank mentioned this some time ago, but how interesting do you all think the portage variant would be?
6 replies
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Leif_Syverson (271 D)
11 Apr 12 UTC
Addiction
After nearly 3 months of rigorous discipline in not responding to political bolshoi threads (from both sides) on the forum I've had a relapse.
Help me Randall!!!
http://xkcd.com/597/
http://xkcd.com/386/
2 replies
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Diplomat33 (243 D(B))
11 Apr 12 UTC
New Game
Join, and have some low key fun!

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=85777
1 reply
Open
rokakoma (19138 D)
11 Apr 12 UTC
Highest rated (by GR) games ever
Who remembers high rated games? Pls feel free to share gameIDs and ratings actual when the game happend.
16 replies
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2ndWhiteLine (2736 D(B))
11 Apr 12 UTC
Low Effort Thought Promotes Conservatism
http://psp.sagepub.com/content/early/2012/03/16/0146167212439213.abstract?rss=1
40 replies
Open
Putin33 (111 D)
11 Apr 12 UTC
The Irish Property Tax
Anybody involved with the movement against this?

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-04-03/is-irelands-property-tax-revolt-the-end-of-austerity-dont-bet-on-it
0 replies
Open
Yonni (136 D(S))
03 Apr 12 UTC
WebDip Triathlon
OK, I think I'd like to formally invite people to sign up for the WebDip Triathlon.
I'll explain more inside.
58 replies
Open
Andrew Wiggin (157 D)
11 Apr 12 UTC
New Game, Battle for Middle Earth lll
Hey guys, looking for more players to join in on a game I just made. 24h turns, 20 D to join!

Thanks!
0 replies
Open
Sandgoose (0 DX)
10 Apr 12 UTC
Your Favorite Afternoon Snack With Sandgoose
Ladies and Gentlemen, tell me...what be your favorite snack? Could be pop-tarts...beans...crispy cream dodo's...ANYTHING! :)

respond within:
25 replies
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ODaly (236 D)
10 Apr 12 UTC
Scumbag?
Not looking for recompense or anything, but... (story inside)
54 replies
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SpeakerToAliens (147 D(S))
11 Apr 12 UTC
People actually complained about this TV advert made for the British Heart Foundation!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ILxjxfB4zNk

Thoughts?
4 replies
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AverageWhiteBoy (314 D)
11 Apr 12 UTC
Look, idealists and ideologues, I don't hate you guys, but
I'm a nihilist and you're all full of shit. ALL of you.
8 replies
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Gobbledydook (1389 D(B))
11 Apr 12 UTC
EOG: Over the Mountain
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=85764
1 reply
Open
dubmdell (556 D)
11 Apr 12 UTC
Don't blame the free website for Tettleton's Chew
A free website is a website where a party may sign up for completely voluntary and free goods and/or services.
Any posting or trolling in the forums by a 3rd party is not a free website transaction. You muting a Tettleton's Chew after work is a free website transaction.
0 replies
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President Eden (2750 D)
11 Apr 12 UTC
Shock and Awe: Invisible Children spying for Ugandan government
WikiLeaks cable: http://wikileaks.org/cable/2009/06/09KAMPALA587.html

Violated their nonprofit status. Oh boy.
1 reply
Open
Leonidas (635 D)
10 Apr 12 UTC
new recruit
Introducing a friend to the game, I have set up a low ( 10 D ) entry game for him to get started in, 19 hrs till it starts, three places to fill, looking for newbie tolerant veterans, who feel like participating in a training exercise, kinda like a dummy hand of cards, except end result sticks...

PM me for password if you're interested
2 replies
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NigeeBaby (100 D(G))
10 Apr 12 UTC
Interesting .......???
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17446831
1 reply
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yebellz (729 D(G))
09 Apr 12 UTC
Just wondering why
What's the use of arguing about politics on a random internet forum?
93 replies
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largeham (149 D)
06 Apr 12 UTC
Look, Americans, I don't hate you guys
I mean, you had the IWW, Emma Goldman and Hemingway. But I'd rather you didn't station Marines in Darwin and UAVs on the Cocos Islands.
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fiedler (1293 D)
09 Apr 12 UTC
@spyman: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ussr

It was a little hit and miss :)
spyman (424 D(G))
09 Apr 12 UTC
typo... The fact that Greece's government *has acquired a debt greater than it can sustain
@largeham - I haven't seen it, but I've heard terrible things about it haha. I have seen a few Bollywood movies, like Akbar and Jam we Met and a few others. They do enjoy dancing in their movies.

And Greece is an example of how capitalism can be poorly managed, just like any political system, not that capitalism is bad.
largeham (149 D)
10 Apr 12 UTC
Goldfinger, we can never be friends :P

Spyman, I can't and don't want to outline how exactly a new society would look like, it is impossible and kinda elitist. What I would hope for is something along the lines of where people would elect delegates to councils of workers, delegates who still work and are replaceable (through a vote) at any moment. And it is through these council that decisions are made.
Awwww, why not largeham?
spyman (424 D(G))
10 Apr 12 UTC
"Spyman, I can't and don't want to outline how exactly a new society would look like, it is impossible and kinda elitist."

I don't expect a detailed description. A general outline is fine.

"What I would hope for is something along the lines of where people would elect delegates to councils of workers, delegates who still work and are replaceable (through a vote) at any moment. And it is through these council that decisions are made. "

So the workers would elect the management? Wouldn't this mean you would end up with politicians for managers? Also a lot of positions require very technical knowledge, how are the workers to ascertain how suitable candidates are?

I don't expect you to know all the answers. Do you think the CEO should be elected by all the workers, or would it be better to have tiers. Thus workers vote for middle management, and middle management vote for senior management, and senior management vote for the CEO?

You haven't answered my other question about "needs and profit". Why is it better to work for "needs" rather than profit. And would do you think of my example of how the profit incentive raised the standard of living in China?
spyman (424 D(G))
10 Apr 12 UTC
.... actually maybe I have misunderstood. Perhaps the delegates choose the management? That would work better than the workers selecting management from within their own ranks. Alternatively the delegates could select senior management candidates and then the workers vote for senior management, who then select a CEO and maybe even middle management too.

It would make for an interesting social experiment to see a company run along these lines.
largeham (149 D)
10 Apr 12 UTC
Goldfinger, I don't know about you, but having grown up with Bollywood every day of my life, I hate it. And as you like some of it, you shall have to be purged :)

Spyman, something like that, basically workers would have control over who is running the production, what direction it is going and how it was done. Anyone on a position of power was elected and is recallable at any moment.

As for need v profit, people work better when they do something when they like it and it is in their own interests as compared to when they have to because their bosses are pushing for higher productivity for higher profits, profits which generally aren't passed down to workers.
Eh, I need subtitles so I can only appreciate it so much. Having only watched 4 or so of them, however, I can already notice a .... trend ..... appearing. But i don't mind it yet. I enjoy Hindi songs. If only I could understand what they were saying...
spyman (424 D(G))
10 Apr 12 UTC
"profits which generally aren't passed down to workers"

Why do wages increase then as the economy grows? As new technology is introduced. As workers become more skilled; as management techniques improve and so forth, profits increase and so do average wages.

Here are some stats about the growth in wages in China:
Decade Income
1961 $1.51/day
1981 $3.00/day
1991 $5.00/day
2001 $10.00/day
2010 $22.00/day

(Source: China, India and the United States: The future of economic supremacy by Peter Rodriquez, PhD; Economics, Yale University & Univ. of VA)

Notice that wages have more than doubled since 2001.
If profits aren't passed on to the workers why have wages increased? Why haven't the industrialists, who have been responsible for much of this growth just kept all the profit?

The reason: supply and demand. More profits means more investment which creates greater demand for labor = higher wages. Without more profit, no more investment, no more demand for labor, wages will not rise.

If you would like to see a visual representation of the increase of average incomes in China check out this site:

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/china/gdp-per-capita-ppp

largeham you have suggested an interesting management approach - the workers elect the managers.

If this system is more efficient and profits increase the workers will be better off (so long as the demand for labor rises).
But if this system is less efficient the outputs will fall resulting in either/both job losses or lower wages.

It is all very well proposing a system that has noble intentions but unless it yields practical results the good intentions are in vain.

I am guessing you disagree, but which part do you disagree with. Is it the idea of supply and demand? Do you think it is a fallacy? Moreover how do you explain the increase in wages in China since 1981 (when the reforms officially kicked off), and the exceptional increases in wages in the last ten years.
spyman (424 D(G))
10 Apr 12 UTC
^ By the way, those stats are adjusted for inflation and purchasing power.
Draugnar (0 DX)
10 Apr 12 UTC
I looked up your wages and those are actual wages, not adjusted for inflation. Your claim is false with regards to that. That said, things have continued to improve based on GDP versus purchasing power in industrialized China. *But* you also need to look at the agricultural region where the real poverty of China exists.
spyman (424 D(G))
10 Apr 12 UTC
Draug I am not economist, but I did quote an economist. Maybe he is wrong (I don't think so), but it seems like a pretty basic mistake for a supposed expert on Chinese economics. I can send you a copy of the text if you are interested.

Here is his bio:
http://www.darden.virginia.edu/web/Faculty-Research/Directory/Full-time/Peter-L-Rodriguez/

Do you have a link for your claims? I'll see if can find further support for mine.

For now take a look at the table on this webpage:
http://www.chinability.com/GDP.htm

It shows the increase in China's GDP at current prices, a GDP index in real terms, which seem to support increase of the same magnitude as I listed above. Another column shows the GDP per head by year. I think these figures might be unadjusted. Regardless I think it match approximately the figure I listed above. But it does show per day figure of about 50 cents ($184/365) in 1961, and about $1.30 in 1981, and $23 per day in 2001.

Poverty still exists in China, but when you consider that in the 1950s China was on a par with sub-Saharan Africa, it has definitely come a long way. Wealth distribution is unequal, but there no doubt that hundreds of millions of people are enjoying a standard of living far beyond only a generation ago.
Draugnar (0 DX)
10 Apr 12 UTC
What I was looking at was your second link which *was* adjusted for inflation (although a bit more confusing because it doesn't convert anything to wages per week per worker) and while it showed steady growth and improvement, it was no where near the doubling every decade you were quoting in your table, which is why I don't think that table of wages was adjusted for inflation.

But again, I'm not denying things are improving over there. Minimum wage in the last 30 years has barely doubled ($3.35/hr in 1982, $7.25/hr in 2012) while inflation has caused the cost of living to quadruple in the same time, so in that regards, Chinas workers are seeing their lives improve and our own unskilled work force is seeing the opposite. Maybe *we* should be looking at forcing companies like McDs and Wendys to pay their employees better.
spyman (424 D(G))
10 Apr 12 UTC
"it was no where near the doubling every decade you were quoting in your table"

Look again Draug. GDP Index in real terms starting at base of 100 in 1950.
1961: 148.7
1971: 320.2
1981: 575.5
1991: 1,454.9
2000: 3,422.9
spyman (424 D(G))
10 Apr 12 UTC
Looking at GDP per head Rmb
1961: 185
1971: 288
1981: 489
1991: 1,879
2001: 8,622

(I am not sure if these figures are adjusted. The other other columns all stated that the figures were adjusted, but not this one, and the rate of growth is higher).
Draugnar (0 DX)
10 Apr 12 UTC
You are right. I misspoke. My apologies.

But $22 per day presently is still too low considering the profits made by those companies. You think the US has a wage gap? *China* has a wage gap! They are just doing something to improve it while ours is getting worse.
Draugnar (0 DX)
10 Apr 12 UTC
*per week, not per day.
Draugnar (0 DX)
10 Apr 12 UTC
Nope, I was right the first time. Per day. Not as bad as I thought. That's $110 per week. Our own minimum wage results in about $270 per week take home, so not nearly as bad as I thought.
Draugnar (0 DX)
10 Apr 12 UTC
The other difference between the two, though, is working conditions and worker's safety. In that regards we are heads above China.
spyman (424 D(G))
10 Apr 12 UTC
No worries Draug :-) I wanted to find some more sources anyway. I looked for some hard data (aside from the book that was in front of me) when I first posted but I wasn't sure where to look.

"But $22 per day presently is still too low considering the profits made by those companies."

So what to do? Is wage control the answer. But might not this kill the goose which is laying the golden egg? China is competitive because its wages are lower.
Looking at the USA is seeking to mandate higher wages in US really going to help it get it manufacturing going again when one of the main problems is that US has lost its competitive edge.

Personally I think it is better in the long run to go with the laws of supply and demand. (That said I think there is room room for a minimum wage, which should be close to what supply and demand would dictate anyway).
@Spyman - you're only partially correct with your higher demand for labor increasing wages. That's only part of the deal, though by indexing for inflation you get rid of the effects of expansion of the money supply, which is good. I think those stats aren't reflective of the average worker in China though. I'd like to see median income stats for both the coastal and interior region. In reality, there are two Chinas in an economic sense.

Also, the US is due for a *absolutely massive* increase in minimum wage, since we have expanded our money supply many times over in the last two decades.
Putin33 (111 D)
10 Apr 12 UTC
The incomes are going up for all regions of China. Tibet has more than doubled its gdp per capita in just half a decade, and quadrupled it since 2000. If that's colonialism sign me up.
largeham (149 D)
10 Apr 12 UTC
I'll admit, I don't know too much about China. But a quick search seems to show that while China has experienced massive growth in wages, income inequality is rising.
http://repec.org/esNASM04/up.30985.1075445708.pdf
http://www.bwpi.manchester.ac.uk/resources/Working-Papers/bwpi-wp-10910.pdf
These studies both show that China's Gini Coefficient is much higher than claimed.
This article (http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/11_06/b4214013648109.htm) claims it is around .5 (though it is Businessweek, so take it as you will).

I don't deny that capitalism has increased living standards compared to earlier, agrarian based feudalism (or as someone recently said to me, tributary modes of production), however it is based on the exploitation of workers. You mentioned that the idea I proposed might have noble intentions but if it doesn't translate into output it will be in vain, but what point is there in achieving increasing output if it relies on the impoverishment of the working class?


114 replies
Draugnar (0 DX)
10 Apr 12 UTC
This came up in tha Admoin Smackdown game.
Important matter that needs the sites input.

See inside.
18 replies
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jwalters93 (288 D)
10 Apr 12 UTC
One thing.
If you could pick one thing to be totally amazing at, what would you choose, and why? (Yes, it has to be a real thing.)
25 replies
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CrazyCanuck (100 D)
10 Apr 12 UTC
Guinness record for longest convoy?
I'm in a World Diplo game, and we are almost done. A 4 way draw in this very, very long game! I'm wondering if anyone knows the World's Record for longest convoy. We are trying one that will use 25 fleets! If that's the record, please let me know, ASAP, as I can ask us to change it to use 26 fleets.

Thanks!
0 replies
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Leonidas (635 D)
07 Apr 12 UTC
Cancer Research Conspiracy
Had a discussion about whether a cure for Cancer is locked away in someone's deep pockets or not.
12 replies
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acmac10 (120 D(B))
04 Apr 12 UTC
Need Some Fantasy Baseball Participants
So as you may know, we're doing a fantasy baseball league for WebDip on Yahoo. If you're interested please PM me or krellin. Thanks
22 replies
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redhouse1938 (429 D)
08 Apr 12 UTC
EoG : "Skyfall" gameID=77069
Slot reserved! Post your EoGs here everybody!
13 replies
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jwalters93 (288 D)
09 Apr 12 UTC
Wow.
I made a game titled 'No Idiots Allowed.'

The game was cancelled because not enogh people joined.
2 replies
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YadHoGrojaUL (330 D)
10 Apr 12 UTC
EOG Live Gunboat 190
6 replies
Open
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