That was a Team America refference.

Aahh... yes, I always think of Team America when I think of Kim Jung-Il, but I had forgotten about the stuff aboiut pussies. Classic film.

National hero indeed. By privatizing the country and making any criticism of capitalism a crime. Not to mention opening up all the prisons and unleashing thousands of criminals on the populace.

Ah yes of course the Russian should have invaded again just like in 1968. A real examplie of Democratic Socialism in action............NOT.

What are you babbling about?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/august/21/newsid_2781000/2781867.stm
1968: Russia brings winter to 'Prague Spring'
Dozens of people have been killed in a massive military clampdown in Czechoslovakia by five Warsaw Pact countries.

Several members of the liberal Czechoslovak leadership have been arrested, including Prime Minister Alexander Dubcek.

The Soviet news agency, Tass, claims "assistance" was requested by members of the Czechoslovak Government and Communist party leaders to fight "counter-revolutionary forces".

But in a secret radio address, Czechoslovak President Ludvik Svoboda condemned the occupation by Warsaw Pact allies as illegal and committed without the government's consent.

US President Lyndon Johnson said the invasion was a clear violation of the United Nations Charter and that the excuses offered by the Soviet Union were "patently contrived".

"It is a sad commentary on the communist mind that a sign of liberty in Czechoslovakia is deemed a fundamental threat to the security of the Soviet system," he said.

The Czechoslovak authorities have ordered their vastly outnumbered army not to fight and are appealing to the public for restraint.

Czechoslovakia's abortive path to freedom began when Mr Dubcek, a Slovak, became Communist Party leader in January.

A programme of wide-ranging democratic reforms had been gathering pace in the face of Soviet disapproval and the rebirth of social and political freedom became known as the "Prague Spring".

Resistance

In the capital of Prague today, crowds of people gathered in the streets chanting support for Mr Dubcek and imploring the foreign troops to go home.

Much of the resistance was centred around the Prague radio station. As the day progressed, Czechoslovak youths threw home-made missiles and even tried to take on Russian tanks.

Reports say some tanks and ammunition trucks were destroyed, but Soviet troops responded with machinegun and artillery fire and at least four people were shot dead.

In the Wenceslas and Old Town Squares, hundreds of youths made barricades out of overturned lorries to try and halt the advance.

Soviet and eastern block commanders have now imposed an overnight curfew and are threatening to shoot on sight anyone caught breaking it.

All rail, road and airline routes out of Czechoslovakia have been closed as troops continue to enter the country - now estimated to number nearly 175,000 men.

Yes I'm aware of this event. It has nothing to do with anything we're discussing here. You just spout off random nonsense.

It has everything to do with your knee jerk Stalinist inspired distaste of Havel. Unless you care to condemn the invasion?

Communism is a flawed system anyway.

And capitalism isn't??

''Communism is a flawed system anyway'' and ''And capitalism isn't?? ''

Abbey sums it up nicely with this:

Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization, based on five thousand years of experience, that we cannot entrust the management of our lives to kings, priests, politicians, generals, and county commissioners.

@Jamiet99uk: I wasn't saying anything about another system. I myself think the Dutch system of socialism mixed with capitalism is quite good, however, still vulnerable.

Communism has never worked, in no time in no country. It's idealistic I give you that, but as with so many things idealism breaks apart at the hard reality to totalitarianism, power and corruption.

"It has everything to do with your knee jerk Stalinist inspired distaste of Havel."

No it doesn't. My dislike of Havel is quite independent of the actions of '68, which didn't involve this loser in the least. Glad you support a man who loathed democracy and implemented the harshest lustration laws in Europe.

"Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization, based on five thousand years of experience, that we cannot entrust the management of our lives to kings, priests, politicians, generals, and county commissioners."

Stop pretending you're an anarchist. You shit on the IRA and say the Irish should respect the British uniform and you want us to believe you're an anarchist?

"Communism has never worked, in no time in no country."

Where has capitalism "worked" again? I guess millions starving and being illiterate while a small number gorge themselves on excess is an example of it "working". The European financial crisis is another example of it "working". Your mixed economy has been slashed and burned (so-called 'welfare reform') because it is not sustainable. You can't afford social services in the global market economy.





"

OK lets deal in specifics. You say this (repeatedly):

''Stop pretending you're an anarchist. You shit on the IRA and say the Irish should respect the British uniform and you want us to believe you're an anarchist?''

Care to give the context of this remark? I remember it distinctly, do you?

Hello, hello are you there or have you hung up on me...............................do you condemn the 1968 invasion of Czechoslovakia or not?

"''Communism is a flawed system anyway'' and ''And capitalism isn't?? ''"

Hey kids! Name the logical fallacy!!!!

@ thucy Hey kids! Name the logical fallacy!!!!

Ask Ursa and Jamiet.

@ Ursa: "Communism has never worked, in no time in no country."

That's because it has never been put into practice.

@ Thucydides (1025 ):

"Hey kids! Name the logical fallacy!!!!"

Yeah, fair enough actually, you've got me. He didn't say "Communism is a flawed system anyway, and Capitalism is much better". I shouldn't have jumped in so hot-headedly.

@fulhamish (directed at Putin, not me, but I'll comment) - "do you condemn the 1968 invasion of Czechoslovakia or not?"

As a communist, I would personally neither codemn nor support the Warsaw Pact invasion of Czechoslovakia. What I would say is that these events need to be viewed in the wider context of the Cold War.

It was 1968, just a few years after the Cuban missile crisis. The USSR and the majority of Warsaw Pact countries genuinely believed that there was a real risk of the USA and NATO attempting to reach a position of strategic superiority from which they could launch a successful military attack aimed at destroying or forcing the surrender of the forces of the Warsaw Pact and halting the progress of socialism in those countries.

In such a scenario, it was the view of the Soviet leadership that it was essential for Soviet hegemony over the Eastern bloc to be maintained, since the initial stage of any conventional hostilities with NATO would likely take place in the Eastern bloc.

In 1968, during the "Prague Spring" as it was known, it appeared likely to the Soviet leadership that, if reforms continued, Czechoslovakia would ultimately withdraw from the Warsaw Pact. The damage this would do to their strategic base would have been significant, as well as potentially emboldening NATO.

In order to prevent this from happening, the Warsaw Pact intervened.

To be clear, I'm not answering on Putin's behalf - he may disagree with me. I'm also not saying the Warsaw Pact invasion of Czechosolovakia in 1968 was the right thing to do. What I am saying is that it's important to understand the background - to understand why the Soviets acted as they did.

@ Jamiet99. Thank you for your considered view. I have to say that I am somewhat disappointed that it lacked the context of the Czechs themselves, but maybe that's how it must be if one sees things through a Soviet prism.
I suspect that Putin would want to unequivocally support the invasion, but we have yet to hear from him.

"Care to give the context of this remark?"

From the point of view of the worliers, the economic reform seems
to be yielding quicli payoffs mainly to their superiors while the
prospect of ultimate benefits for workers appears remote. Workers
have, of course, failed to respond to the deleveling proposals with
much enthusiasm.

Vaclav Holeslawsky

*So much for the idea that the "Czech people" were enthusiastic about this coup.


Czechoslovakia hopes to gradually open the Czechoslovak national
economy to the influence of the world market.

Rude Pravo, April 25, 1968

Playwright Vaclav Havel in Liternarni Listy, April
4, 1968

Another important element, which speaks to what Jamie is talking about, is the Czech "reformers" reprochment with neo-Nazi West Germany, who did not recognize the GDR and whom the reformers entered into economic relations with. West Germany had always aimed at annexing the GDR, and getting their hands on Czechoslovakia was a major step at achieving that goal.

It is the height of irony that the butchers of Vietnam and Korea whined about the intervention against counterrevolution in Czechoslovakia, which they would not have supported so enthusiastically if it wasn't, in fact, a capitalist restoration project.

Sorry, this was the end of another post of mine.

I agree with Jamie about the background. I'll add some more to the overall thrust of his comments.

One has to remember that the successful revolution in Czechoslovakia, where workers & peasants threw off the rule of landlords & bankers, was the immediate cause of the formation of NATO. The imperialists were so terrified of socialism in Czechoslovakia they formed an aggressive alliance with which they could use to contain the spread of democracy and dominate Europe. After the successful revolution the Americans immediately tried to strangulate Czechoslovakia economically and subvert it from within & without. It should come as no surprise that the western press, and so-called "anarchists" and faux leftists (who manage to side with every act of capitalist restoration anywhere), laud the attempt at capitalist restoration in 1968.

"The United States could greatly help the present positive evolution in
Czechoslovakia by extending to her the long overdue privilege of
receiving the most-favored-nation treatment in respect to tariffs.
Furthermore, the United States has blocked the return to Czechoslovakia
of the gold reserves of the prewar period Prague Government. Their return would be a telling symbol of American good will." (NY Times, March 12, 1968).

And 1968 was definitely a coup aimed at capitalist restoration.

The putchists called for joint capital ventures between Czech enterprises negotiated independently with western capitalists. It announced it would make its currency convertible with the dollar instead of the ruble. They announced their support for states like Israel & the Vatican, the Vatican, the same state-let that was only 'government' to recognize the Cedras coup that ousted the popular government of Aristide. A state that has a notorious history of supporting reaction throughout the world. The putschists called for an end to aid to revolutionary struggles, including the Vietnamese resistance. They rehabilitated reactionary figures from Czech history.

Here's what the 1968 action program said:

"It is not possible to permanently blunt economic policy by taking
from those who work well and giving to those who work badly.
Therefore it is necessary to objectivize value relations so that
differences in the income situation among enterprises express the
real differences in the standard of their work.

Democratization of the economy includes in particular the
realization of the independence of enterprises and enterprise
groupings and their relative independence of state bodies ... the
right and real possibility of different groups of working people and
different social groups to formulate and defend their economic
interests in creating the economic policy."

During 1965, the average pay of administrative employees was only
64.3 percent of workers' pay, whereas salaries of engineers and
technicians were only 30 percent higher than workers' pay (this is written as a complaint).

Techniky Tydenik, Prague, August 1966

They want a much sharper differentiation in wages. They realize
that inefficient firms will suffer. ... A high official in the Ministry of
Foreign Trade avowed that "a little unemployment would be a
good thing."

Ross Terrill in New Republic, May 18, 1968

Cooperation of Czechoslovakia with capitalist countries is not
influenced by interference from COMECON (East European and
Soviet trade association) as a whole or from individual states.

Premier Oldrich Cernik, press conference of May
14, 1968

What specifically is involved? Nothing more than the demand for
complete rehabilitation of all noncommunists, who have had to
suffer for many years.

The possibility of revolt leaves us completely indifferent. We have
no reason to be enthusiastic about a change of persons. ... We must
liquidate this dictatorship or it will liquidate us.

Lecture by Prof. Ivan Svitak, School of Philosophy,
Charles Univ., Prague, in Student, April 10, 1968

Dubcek is a figure of transition. His fundamental dilemma is that solutions that are
required are not provided for in accepted Marxist dogma. The more effectively the
new team tackles outstanding tasks, the more it will contribute to the final
disintegration of communist rule.

Hanus J. Hasek, staff of Radio Free Europe

From the point of view of the worliers, the economic reform seems
to be yielding quicli payoffs mainly to their superiors while the
prospect of ultimate benefits for workers appears remote. Workers
have, of course, failed to respond to the deleveling proposals with
much enthusiasm.

Vaclav Holeslawsky

*So much for the idea that the "Czech people" were enthusiastic about this coup.


Czechoslovakia hopes to gradually open the Czechoslovak national
economy to the influence of the world market.

Rude Pravo, April 25, 1968

Playwright Vaclav Havel in Liternarni Listy, April
4, 1968

Another important element, which speaks to what Jamie is talking about, is the Czech "reformers" reprochment with neo-Nazi West Germany, who did not recognize the GDR and whom the reformers entered into economic relations with. West Germany had always aimed at annexing the GDR, and getting their hands on Czechoslovakia was a major step at achieving that goal.

It is the height of irony that the butchers of Vietnam and Korea whined about the intervention against counterrevolution in Czechoslovakia, which they would not have supported so enthusiastically if it wasn't, in fact, a capitalist restoration project.