A couple more for you.

http://www.actforyouth.net/resources/rf/rf_brain_0502.pdf
http://ontheirlevel.org/whats-happening/maturation-of-the-teen-brain/

Yes, I googled these, but I had read several of them sometime back when we (the community) had this discussion. I wasn't talking out my ass. This research is very real and widely accepted. Teens develop their cognitive thinking ability by the time they reach 18 or 19, but the emotional and decision making abilities that come with it are still developing well into their 20s.

One more for you...

http://www.loni.ucla.edu/~thompson/DEVEL/PNASDevel04.pdf

@ Draugnar

So what? Their experience and decision making abilities that come with it are still developing well into their 80s, so obviously we should wrap people in cotton wool until then. I know a lot about 18 year olds. I used to be one. I can say with absolute certainty that I would trust my 18 year old self to make truly first class choices, and I would trust most 18 year olds as much or more than I would trust 40/50 year olds with most things as they haven't yet been crushed by life's little disappointments.

So what if they're not at their peak emotional maturity? They are mature enough to function as fully fledged humans. To deprive them of responsibility will surely do far more harm than to let them make their own mistakes and walk their own path.

(for those of you who against all odds maintain a strong grip on the OP, I feel I should clarify that I was not, am not, and never will be an 18 year old feminist)

Is this the same Draug who on another thread wants to hand over the reins of the future to a bunch of angry 20 year olds in lower Manhattan?

Have you actually been to the protests, Semck or are you just shooting from the hip like every other hater?

@putin, I was just teasing Draug, I didn't mean anything against the protests. Sorry. Draug's reasoning in the other thread has been, "We old fogies messed things up, so the kids should set things right!" Here he's arguing that kids can't make decisions. I found the juxtaposition of the positions amusing. There was nothing more to it than that.

All of that _said_ -- I have not been to the protests, and perhaps I should drop by before coming to final conclusions, but I have been surprised and concerned by the lack of a core message among the protesters so far. I'm sure all this has been amply discussed on the other thread, though, and I have not kept up with it well enough to particularly want to mix it up right now.

The liberal "choice" meme is bit wacky and contradictory. I'm not quite sure why Octavious brings up the military example, since that's hardly an institution in which free choice flourishes. Indeed, 18 years are making the "free choice" to have every decision about their lives, from the time they wake up to when they brush their teeth, decided by government authority. Weirdly, these libertines have no problem with authoritarian command structures so long as there is some of form of initial "consent", or at least the veneer of consent. After that your eternal bondage is not their concern.

However, this rather strange idea is not extended to government. No sir, the fact that we freely choose our governments, at least theoretically, doesn't mean that the government can issue commands on us without the usual cries of "tyranny" from these libertine types.

Right.... their position seems pretty consistent.

Anyone point out that most feminists are probably lesbian so they would generally be supportive of porn?

Problem solved.

@ Putin

If you're going to make comments on what I say you should at least pay attention. I didn't bring up the military. Draug mentioned it, and I briefly responded to the effect I found it hard to believe that US army recruitment was quite as insane as he made out. If you are trying to use this as the foundations of some sort of point I fear you are losing the plot even earlier than usual.

Still, I am rather enjoying being classed as a libertine tonight instead of the far right lunatic that Sarg has me down as, or left wing nutter that tettleton thinks I am :).

Ok so you didn't bring it up. The point still stands about how you shrug off the long-term social consequences because people at one point, somewhere, initiated their whole hellish lot in life through some choice when they were barely out of high school and living with their parents.

And you'd be thrilled to know that despite America supposedly having little respect for "adults" making decisions, we have a rock solid teen pregnancy rate of sky high proportions, and provide very little in the way of support for these people. Surely this state of our affairs proves that we 'respect' the decision-making prowess of teenagers.

No, Putin. What it is is an excellent demonstration of what happens to young adults when you go to great lengths to treat them as children. Treat them as adults, encourage them to take responisibility as adults, and you will find that on the whole they will act as adults. Treat them as kids and deprive them of responsibility and you get a large number who will act like kids, leading to the problems you describe.

Your country which has a record high youth unemployment rate of over 20% and 15%+ NEET rate is the role model that we all should follow. That's how we Americans can teach kids responsibility, by depriving them of any opportunities for independence, education or employment. Oh no wait, if youth have no job prospects and can't afford education or training that's because they've been infantilized too. It's so easy, we can sum up any social problem on the basis of this ideological mantra that people aren't taking responsibility for themselves.

What on earth does the state of the UK have to do with anything? I've obviously forgotten the part of my argument where I was shouting from the rooftops that all should base their ideals on a model of Britain stuck in an economic downturn. You're having something of an off day, Putin, so I will soon bugger off and leave you to it.

No matter what you argue, however, the reality of the situation remains. People in their mid to late teens will insist on trying to take control of their lives whether the rest of us wish them to or not. This leaves us a stark choice. We either treat them as adults, help them take responsibility, and give them what support we can... or we treat them as kids, try and keep them from taking control of their own lives wherever possible, and wonder why they get rebellious and screw their lives up.

@semck, I said it isn't our place to stop them trying. But there is a big difference between a sit in and a porn shoot. One may ne a waste of time but the other is a dangerous path to walk.

@Draug, fair point (though, of course, I do consider it _my_ place, as I'm barely older -- and yours too, to help or hinder, should you desire).

But mostly I just wanted to give you a hard time.

I know, semck. And I was really just giving obi a hard time considering he's about to give himself a stroke over some modern day hippies camping out in a park in NYC.

I've never watched porn, I'll admit...ever.

And as I think we've established, I'm about as asexual a guy as they come.

But I'll all for posting links to somewhat-humorous internet videos, and so...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n32YYJW9y64&feature=related

oh what a sweet cherub our obi is

?

lol

Obi, someday you're going to pull a Charlie Sheen. Your obituary will read:

obi found dead on top of a hooker, covered in coke, with a BAC of 0.5. Doctors believe his heart stop while watching Pirates. Lady Gaga was playing in the background.

It was a good video at least.

Granted I have zero experience with any of that...

But that sounds like a pretty fun way to go (except for the Gaga part...yoou couldn't have left me with better music to die to, abgemacht?) ;)

The title of this should be Pr0n from a feminist perspective.

You cant just say the P word on the internet...that is blasphemous.

It's kind of like n00b, pl*co and G*d...