right,and they're all morons, don't forget that tidbit.

I'm waiting to hear something intelligent from AverageWhiteBoy on the forum, I get the feeling I'll be waiting for a while longer.

I currently live in an area densely populated by Mormons.

Strat +1 - I was about to point out the same thing considering the Catholic Church *declared* Luther to be a heretic.

Luther was a heretic.

Such an outdated and antiquated word, heretic. Who cares if someone is a heretic anymore. All that word represents is an old fashioned form of punishment bestowed on people by overreaching churches and foolish individuals.

Heresy means conflicting a dogma. If e.g. sola fide doesn't conflict with good works, I don't know what does.

If you want people to acknowledge your reply you might want to cut the pompous "sola fide" crap. Anyways, so many current groups, ideas, and individuals challenge "dogma" today that the label heretic has lost any real power and or meaning it previously held.

Mormons aren't bad at all. Nice people, and they really practice what they preach. Good dental hygiene as well.

There's nothing pompous in citing a doctrine which distinguished Luther from the Catholic Church so much. The fact that the word heretic needs to undergo rectification of names doesn't mean Luther wasn't one.

@uly - The point was that if you aren't Roman Catholic and follow the Roman Catholic dogma, you are a heretic. Nothing wrong with it. I'm happy to be one.

@jmo - Anyone who even lightly studies Catholicism and Lutheranism knows what "sola fide" is. It's no more pompous than saying "prima facie" when having a legal discussion. Seriously. Not pompous at all.

The difference being that everyone in a legal discussion would know what "prima facie" means. The same cannot be said here.

I think Mormonism should be treated like the World Church of the Creator.

" The Five solas are five Latin phrases that emerged during the Protestant Reformation and summarize the Reformers' basic theological beliefs in contradistinction to the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church of the day."
# 1 Sola scriptura ("by Scripture alone")
# 3 Sola gratia ("by grace alone")
# 4 Solus Christus or Solo Christo ("Christ alone" or "through Christ alone")
# 5 Soli Deo gloria ("glory to God alone")
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_solas

Not "scripture as interpreted by Luther," not "scripture plus the writings of Joseph Smith. Also, I recommend the book 'One Nation Under Gods' for anyone who wants a very well-documented book on Mormonism.

Christiantiy is a cult, it just happens to be a fairly popular one...

*Christianity , even.

Looking throughout the history Christianity is by far most fanatical religion compared to any other now widely spread religions.

@Draug Indeed, there's nothing wrong with being a heretic and I never hinted at it. Catholics themselves are heretics for Orthodox Catholics. Luther lived in Catholic Europe, born and raised in Catholic dogmas, how cannot be his position viewed as heretical?

And yes, what is sola fide was something I learned in the high-school philosophy. Since I studied in a country where even schools funded by Catholics do not have classes on religion, I regard it as a part of some educational standard, perhaps wrongly. Anyway, since one cannot have a fruitful discussion without both sides sharing the same terminology, do you now understand what sola fide means, jmo? If not, I'll reiterate.

@Mujus - So you prefer Scripture as interpreted by a bunch of monks paid to make it say what the king wanted it to say? Hello, unless you are reading in Hebrew and Greek, you are reading someone else's interpretation and with it comes their prejudices and world views and influences from outside forces. A modern translation will be the most accurate because there is less pressure to conform to a powerful person's demands than there was in the time of King James. The best translations are literal translations done outside the church by people interested in preserving the history by havign the translation be as precise as possible. they have no motive to alter the test to meet their or someone else's whims and desires. And I find my Hebrew/Greek Key Study Bible to be the best for this as it is a prallel Bible with three columns: Annotated English, identically Annotated Hebrew or Greek, and definitions and notes for the annotations.

A Mormon once turned me into a newt once. I got better.

A woman once turned me into a babbling idiot. I'm still recovering...

Draugnar, lol, yes, the best translations are more recent, but not because King James told the translators how to interpret it! But since that day, many many more ancient writings have been dug up or dug out of ancient storehouses, and we are much closer to understanding the original meaning. I know enough Greek to puzzle out the words, and know how to use a concordance and dictionaries to look up words I don't know, but mostly I just read the New Living Translation, which is amazingly clear and refreshingly current in its use of language. It's available at blueletterbible.org, where the content is free.

There are a couple of places where the NIV is more accurate, and it's mostly very clear, but the level of vocabulary used is higher than that of most Americans. The New American Standard Bible, however, is even more accurate, but quite a bit harder to understand. It really takes study, or a fairly high vocabulary, to understand, and I find that slows down my apprehension of the whole message.

i hear reading it in hebrew is pretty accurate

"I think Mormonism should be treated like the World Church of the Creator."

Does this mean Putin33 is in favor of governor Boggs' Extermination Order?

Boggs Extermination order was a call for expulsion, and that's how it was carried out. Extermination has multiple meanings, and that's exactly how the LDS themselves interpreted it. This was after reports of atrocities by Mormon militias against Missouri citizens. Bringing up this crap is a sorry excuse to defend a wholly racist and despicable religion. What I meant was the LDS should be considered a hate group, like the World Church of the Creator. That's exactly what it is. At the very least its tax exemption should be taken away from its blatant interventions in the politics of California and elsewhere.

By the way, months prior to the issuance of the order, LDS militia leader Rigdon said the following

"“And that mob that comes on us to disturb us; it shall be between them and us a war of extermination, for we will follow them, till the last drop of their blood be spilled, or else they will have to exterminate us; for we will carry the seat of war to their own houses, and their own families, and one party or the other shall be utterly destroyed."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigdon%27s_July_4th_Oration

"Boggs Extermination order was a call for expulsion, and that's how it was carried out. "

It was a call for expulsion or mass murder - whichever got the job done. "The Mormons must be treated as enemies, and must be exterminated or driven from the state if necessary for the public peace--their outrages are beyond all description." I have a funny feeling you would not be so blase if we were talking about the same language in respect to the Wobblies or the present OWS movement.

"This was after reports of atrocities by Mormon militias against Missouri citizens."

Reports which were entirely bogus.

" At the very least its tax exemption should be taken away from its blatant interventions in the politics of California and elsewhere."

Please. Non-religious tax-exempt special interest groups intervene in politics all the time. While I voted against Prop 8, I see no reason to pick on the Mormons in particular.

"LDS militia leader Rigdon said the following"

*YAWN*. this is a purely defensive "mess with us and we'll make you sorry" kind of statement.

Right, so if Mormon leaders make statements calling for a battle until the last drop of blood of Missourians is spilled, that's "defensive". But if Boggs issues an order which even LDS commanders interpret as an expulsion order, and Boggs himself never called for any bloodshed, that's an outrage. If this was really a call for murdering Mormons on sight why didn't that happen?

EXTERMINATE, v.t. [L. extermino; ex and terminus, limit] Literally, to drive from within the limits or borders.

So expelling Enemies of the State from their homes under threat of execution, seizing their property, and killing 21 of them in the process is A-okay with Putin so long as they follow a religion that is 'racist' and otherwise not government-approved...

The Man of Steel would be proud

(in contrast, for all of Rigdon's militancy, only one (armed combatant) non-Mormon was killed in the "Mormon War" in Missouri)

"Right, so if Mormon leaders make statements calling for a battle until the last drop of blood of Missourians is spilled, that's "defensive""

Did you read your own quote? "And that mob that comes on us to disturb us; it shall be between them and us a war of extermination". That's an explicit reference to 'that mob that comes on us to disturb us', not the entire population of Missouri.

The incident at Haun's Mill had nothing to do with Boggs order. And Haun's Mill is peanuts compared to Mountain Meadows.

It wouldn't surprise me that you would put 'racist' in quotes, after all, the reams of passages openly describing blacks in the most reprehensible terms that exist in all three scripture books, not to mention the litany of sermons given by Brigham Young which he deemed themselves to be scripture, is not enough evidence. Nor is the prohibition against black priests or blacks entering the Temples which lasted until 1978.

I guess so long as they're anti-federal government they get your stamp of approval.

Yes I read it, apparently it's "defensive" to threaten to follow any "mob" and murder their families.

And of course, expulsion orders/threats of violence vs Non-Mormons or Mormon 'dissenters' in their own community is fine.

"We have solemnly warned you, and that in the most determined manner, that if you do not cease that course of wanton abuse of the citizens of this county, that vengeance would overtake you sooner or later, and that when it did come it would be as furious as the mountain torrent, and as terrible as the beating tempest; but you have affected to despise our warnings, and pass them off with a sneer, or a grin, or a threat, and pursued your former course; and vengeance sleepeth not, neither does it slumber; and unless you heed us this time, and attend to our request, it will overtake you at an hour when you do not expect, and at a day when you do not look for it; and for you there shall be no escape; for there is but one decree for you, which is depart, depart, or a more fatal calamity shall befall you."

"Haun's Mill is peanuts compared to Mountain Meadows."

Please. Mountain Meadows occurred about 15 years *after* the Missouri Mormon "War", at a time when the Mormon community was under siege by the Federales in the (Utah) Mormon War. Absent the 19th century invention of a time machine by those evil Mormons, the latter cannot justify the former.

"I guess so long as they're anti-federal government they get your stamp of approval. "

Eh? The leading Republican presidential contender is a Mormon, and Utah supported Dubya by a landslide. That doesn't sound very "anti-federal government" to me.

They fought a civil war against the federal government, that's why they get your tears. Even if the scale of their atrocities is much greater, and even if they threatened to take over all of Missouri, believing god gave it to them, doesn't matter. All is forgiven because they took up arms against the federal government.